A character with a long bow who has the sharpshooter feat and some way to camouflage, let's say minor illusion.
The character is on a ridge, behind a rock that gives 3/4 cover. They use minor illusion to cover them with an illusion of a rock that blends into the real rock and the rest of their surroundings. The targets are up to the max range, just under 600ft.
Now given that the character hits the targets, my question is: Does there need to be an initiative roll?
A character with a long bow who has the sharpshooter feat and some way to camouflage, let's say minor illusion.
The character is on a ridge, behind a rock that gives 3/4 cover. They use minor illusion to cover them with an illusion of a rock that blends into the real rock and the rest of their surroundings. The targets are up to the max range, just under 600ft.
Now given that the character hits the targets, my question is: Does there need to be an initiative roll?
Yes, and initiative should have been rolled before the character took the shot.
Yes, initiative should be rolled in this case. You would roll initiative before making the initial attack, and your targets would be surprised (assuming they aren't aware of you).
The initiative rules give the DM some flexibility on when a combat technically starts, but I think this clearly falls into a combat scenario. Your targets aren't dumb AI that forget you exist 5 seconds after being shot by you. They can take cover, call for help, or scan the horizon to find where you are hiding. Just because they can't see or attack you doesn't mean they don't get to act.
If you are sniping a lone commoner who is unaware of your existence and is all but guaranteed to die in one hit, you could probably skip the initiative roll and just take your shots. But against multiple targets that you can't handle in one turn? That's gonna be a combat encounter.
A character with a long bow who has the sharpshooter feat and some way to camouflage, let's say minor illusion.
The character is on a ridge, behind a rock that gives 3/4 cover. They use minor illusion to cover them with an illusion of a rock that blends into the real rock and the rest of their surroundings. The targets are up to the max range, just under 600ft.
Now given that the character hits the targets, my question is: Does there need to be an initiative roll?
Turn it around. There is an NPC sniper taking aim at the PC on watch.
Now ask your players if initiative needs to be rolled.
Note that in this circumstance, the surprise rules interact particularly poorly with the Skulker feat. If the sniper has that and keeps missing, I think the best solution is to keep restarting combat every shot until the sniper hits.
Note that in this circumstance, the surprise rules interact particularly poorly with the Skulker feat. If the sniper has that and keeps missing, I think the best solution is to keep restarting combat every shot until the sniper hits.
I would disagree, if a skulker shoots an arrow at someone and misses the skulker remains hidden but it is very likely they realise they are under attack (I would probably do a perception check a very low result means they didn't notice the arrow, a high score means they know where it came from ("It came from somewhere close to that rock"). At that point they can either take cover, hold an action to shoot at anything that comes into sight, (the skulker gets shot as as a reaction if he reveals himself by hitting), cast invisibility on themselves, teleport to the other side of the continent or any of number of other actions.
Note that in this circumstance, the surprise rules interact particularly poorly with the Skulker feat. If the sniper has that and keeps missing, I think the best solution is to keep restarting combat every shot until the sniper hits.
I would disagree, if a skulker shoots an arrow at someone and misses the skulker remains hidden but it is very likely they realise they are under attack (I would probably do a perception check a very low result means they didn't notice the arrow, a high score means they know where it came from ("It came from somewhere close to that rock"). At that point they can either take cover, hold an action to shoot at anything that comes into sight, (the skulker gets shot as as a reaction if he reveals himself by hitting), cast invisibility on themselves, teleport to the other side of the continent or any of number of other actions.
That's shenanigans. If I'm completely hidden from my target and miss and I have the Skulker feat, and the GM rules my targets miraculously know I attacked them (and from where, which the Skulker feat explicitly shuts down) despite there being no evidence my projectile went anywhere near them, I'd demand the opportunity to rebuild my character. One of the primary purposes of the Skulker feat is to stop that from happening. If my GM is going to house nerf the Skulker feat only after I take it, it's only fair if I'm allowed to immediately change to a feat which works as written.
Yes, must roll initiative. The good part is if you roll higher than the target they are surprised on their turn and you would get to attack before them on the next round. If they roll higher then you only get the surprise round before they can act, but still a free round basically. As far as Skulker, they would know they were being targeted by an attack, just not know where and would probably be using an active perception to look for the culprit rather than a passive on their turn.
Note that in this circumstance, the surprise rules interact particularly poorly with the Skulker feat. If the sniper has that and keeps missing, I think the best solution is to keep restarting combat every shot until the sniper hits.
I would disagree, if a skulker shoots an arrow at someone and misses the skulker remains hidden but it is very likely they realise they are under attack (I would probably do a perception check a very low result means they didn't notice the arrow, a high score means they know where it came from ("It came from somewhere close to that rock"). At that point they can either take cover, hold an action to shoot at anything that comes into sight, (the skulker gets shot as as a reaction if he reveals himself by hitting), cast invisibility on themselves, teleport to the other side of the continent or any of number of other actions.
That's shenanigans. If I'm completely hidden from my target and miss and I have the Skulker feat, and the GM rules my targets miraculously know I attacked them (and from where, which the Skulker feat explicitly shuts down) despite there being no evidence my projectile went anywhere near them, I'd demand the opportunity to rebuild my character. One of the primary purposes of the Skulker feat is to stop that from happening. If my GM is going to house nerf the Skulker feat only after I take it, it's only fair if I'm allowed to immediately change to a feat which works as written.
I didn't say they knew you attacked them I said they knew they were under attack. What skulker actually says is
"When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position."
I would rule that as meaning they do not know you exact position, though I admit it could be interpreted as they have no idea where you are. If you fire an arrow at someone and they hear it ping harmlessly off their armor or see it land at their feet they are going to know they are under attack. They wont know it is you that attacked them but I would suggest they probably would know that the arrow came from somewhere to the west (or whatever)
Yes. Roll initiative before the character makes their attack. If the targets are not expecting trouble then the character will likely have a surprise round.
However, RAW, a character gives away their position whenever they make an attack whether it hits or misses. This is even if they are at 600', behind 3/4 cover, with a minor illusion blocking them.
You can change the rules if you want but the targets of the attack, RAW, will know where the attack came from.
It is important to roll initiative, first, for technical reasons.
Assume the targets are surprised, and two of them are monks. Monk A rolls initiative 15, the sniper 10, and monk B rolls 5.
Monk A has their turn before the sniper, but being surprised, they can't take any actions (or reactions). At the end of their turn, they replenish their reaction.
At the sniper's turn, monk A could use their reaction to deflect missle the shot. Monk B, being surprised, does not have a reaction available, and could not use that class feature.
And on danger of repeating myself from other, similar threads, there is a (rather long) video out, where Jeremy Crawford explains the design intent behind the rules for initiative and surprise: https://youtu.be/vS9efeyCHTc
I didn't say they knew you attacked them I said they knew they were under attack.
Well you did say that the target would get a check to know where the attack came from, that seems at odds with the "making the attack doesn't reveal your position" from Skulker.
I didn't say they knew you attacked them I said they knew they were under attack.
Well you did say that the target would get a check to know where the attack came from, that seems at odds with the "making the attack doesn't reveal your position" from Skulker.
I didn't say they knew you attacked them I said they knew they were under attack.
Well you did say that the target would get a check to know where the attack came from, that seems at odds with the "making the attack doesn't reveal your position" from Skulker.
Yes, exactly.
I did explain that. I agree you will not know the attackers exact position. Say an arrow bounces of the back plate of your armor or you see an arrow go past you to land in front of you. I don't think that being able to determine that the attack came from somewhere behind you reveals the attackers position.
Flip it the other way, an NPC with skulker fires at the party wizard. DM: "An arrow flies past you just missing your ear" Wizard:"What direction did it come from? DM: "You don't know" Wizard: "Well where did it land" DM [rolls a die] "While it landed in front of you your passive investigation is high enough to know that doesnot mean the shot was necessarily fired from behind you."
The Skulker feat does not appear to be of any specific use to a Sniper.
Obviously initiative has to be rolled, and if the arrow came close enough to have a chance of doing damage at all, it should be pretty easy to hear it at least. Where the arrow ends up is DM's Whimsey. It probably goes flying by and ends up lost in the terrain somewhere. The character may not have a clue where it came from, but they do know something is up. The rules for Surprise are still in effect.
Flip it the other way, an NPC with skulker fires at the party wizard. DM: "An arrow flies past you just missing your ear" Wizard:"What direction did it come from? DM: "You don't know" Wizard: "Well where did it land" DM [rolls a die] "While it landed in front of you your passive investigation is high enough to know that does not mean the shot was necessarily fired from behind you."
Directionality is fine.
GM: "Roll Perception."
*math rocks go clickety clack, don't beat skulker's stealth, which we'll arbitrarily use as the dc for noticing the arrow*
GM: "Ok."
skulker fires again, misses again
GM: "Roll again."
PC beats the DC this time.
GM: "An arrow whizzes past you, coming from that direction."
I'm comfortable with that.
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Here's the situation.
A character with a long bow who has the sharpshooter feat and some way to camouflage, let's say minor illusion.
The character is on a ridge, behind a rock that gives 3/4 cover. They use minor illusion to cover them with an illusion of a rock that blends into the real rock and the rest of their surroundings. The targets are up to the max range, just under 600ft.
Now given that the character hits the targets, my question is: Does there need to be an initiative roll?
Yes, and initiative should have been rolled before the character took the shot.
What Quindraco said.
That said, the sniper almost certainly has the benefit of surprise.
Yes, initiative should be rolled in this case. You would roll initiative before making the initial attack, and your targets would be surprised (assuming they aren't aware of you).
The initiative rules give the DM some flexibility on when a combat technically starts, but I think this clearly falls into a combat scenario. Your targets aren't dumb AI that forget you exist 5 seconds after being shot by you. They can take cover, call for help, or scan the horizon to find where you are hiding. Just because they can't see or attack you doesn't mean they don't get to act.
If you are sniping a lone commoner who is unaware of your existence and is all but guaranteed to die in one hit, you could probably skip the initiative roll and just take your shots. But against multiple targets that you can't handle in one turn? That's gonna be a combat encounter.
Technically (per the rules) yes you should roll initiative and determine surprise.
But depending on the circumstances, there may be no way for the target to fight back or escape, so you can choose to just skip the "fight".
Turn it around. There is an NPC sniper taking aim at the PC on watch.
Now ask your players if initiative needs to be rolled.
Note that in this circumstance, the surprise rules interact particularly poorly with the Skulker feat. If the sniper has that and keeps missing, I think the best solution is to keep restarting combat every shot until the sniper hits.
I would disagree, if a skulker shoots an arrow at someone and misses the skulker remains hidden but it is very likely they realise they are under attack (I would probably do a perception check a very low result means they didn't notice the arrow, a high score means they know where it came from ("It came from somewhere close to that rock"). At that point they can either take cover, hold an action to shoot at anything that comes into sight, (the skulker gets shot as as a reaction if he reveals himself by hitting), cast invisibility on themselves, teleport to the other side of the continent or any of number of other actions.
That's shenanigans. If I'm completely hidden from my target and miss and I have the Skulker feat, and the GM rules my targets miraculously know I attacked them (and from where, which the Skulker feat explicitly shuts down) despite there being no evidence my projectile went anywhere near them, I'd demand the opportunity to rebuild my character. One of the primary purposes of the Skulker feat is to stop that from happening. If my GM is going to house nerf the Skulker feat only after I take it, it's only fair if I'm allowed to immediately change to a feat which works as written.
Yes, must roll initiative. The good part is if you roll higher than the target they are surprised on their turn and you would get to attack before them on the next round. If they roll higher then you only get the surprise round before they can act, but still a free round basically. As far as Skulker, they would know they were being targeted by an attack, just not know where and would probably be using an active perception to look for the culprit rather than a passive on their turn.
I didn't say they knew you attacked them I said they knew they were under attack. What skulker actually says is
"When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position."
I would rule that as meaning they do not know you exact position, though I admit it could be interpreted as they have no idea where you are. If you fire an arrow at someone and they hear it ping harmlessly off their armor or see it land at their feet they are going to know they are under attack. They wont know it is you that attacked them but I would suggest they probably would know that the arrow came from somewhere to the west (or whatever)
Yes. Roll initiative before the character makes their attack. If the targets are not expecting trouble then the character will likely have a surprise round.
However, RAW, a character gives away their position whenever they make an attack whether it hits or misses. This is even if they are at 600', behind 3/4 cover, with a minor illusion blocking them.
You can change the rules if you want but the targets of the attack, RAW, will know where the attack came from.
It is important to roll initiative, first, for technical reasons.
Assume the targets are surprised, and two of them are monks. Monk A rolls initiative 15, the sniper 10, and monk B rolls 5.
Monk A has their turn before the sniper, but being surprised, they can't take any actions (or reactions). At the end of their turn, they replenish their reaction.
At the sniper's turn, monk A could use their reaction to deflect missle the shot. Monk B, being surprised, does not have a reaction available, and could not use that class feature.
And on danger of repeating myself from other, similar threads, there is a (rather long) video out, where Jeremy Crawford explains the design intent behind the rules for initiative and surprise: https://youtu.be/vS9efeyCHTc
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Well you did say that the target would get a check to know where the attack came from, that seems at odds with the "making the attack doesn't reveal your position" from Skulker.
Yes, exactly.
I did explain that. I agree you will not know the attackers exact position. Say an arrow bounces of the back plate of your armor or you see an arrow go past you to land in front of you. I don't think that being able to determine that the attack came from somewhere behind you reveals the attackers position.
Flip it the other way, an NPC with skulker fires at the party wizard.
DM: "An arrow flies past you just missing your ear"
Wizard:"What direction did it come from?
DM: "You don't know"
Wizard: "Well where did it land"
DM [rolls a die] "While it landed in front of you your passive investigation is high enough to know that doesnot mean the shot was necessarily fired from behind you."
The Skulker feat does not appear to be of any specific use to a Sniper.
Obviously initiative has to be rolled, and if the arrow came close enough to have a chance of doing damage at all, it should be pretty easy to hear it at least. Where the arrow ends up is DM's Whimsey. It probably goes flying by and ends up lost in the terrain somewhere. The character may not have a clue where it came from, but they do know something is up. The rules for Surprise are still in effect.
<Insert clever signature here>
Directionality is fine.
GM: "Roll Perception."
*math rocks go clickety clack, don't beat skulker's stealth, which we'll arbitrarily use as the dc for noticing the arrow*
GM: "Ok."
skulker fires again, misses again
GM: "Roll again."
PC beats the DC this time.
GM: "An arrow whizzes past you, coming from that direction."
I'm comfortable with that.