Bad Guy Bluto is in possession of Blackrazor. Evil sword eats the souls of those it kills. Goodguy Zay Tay knows the spell Soul Cage cast as a reaction temporarily imprisons souls of humanoids that die in 60ft.
Bluto kills someone. Can Zay Tay grab the soul, saving it from an eternity of hell inside Blackrazor? Yes or no? When Soul Cage ends, is the soul free or does it then get sucked into Black Razor.
From a RAW perspective, I would argue that Blackrazor's effect happens before Soul Cage's trigger. Blackrazor devours the soul when the creature hits 0 HP, whereas Soul Cage can only be used when a creature dies. Arguably, by the time you can react, the dead creature's soul has already been devoured.
From a RAI perspective, reactions normally take place between the events that trigger them and the effect of those events, so the Soul Cage should probably trip before Balckrazor can finish its business.
From a RAF perspective, I much prefer the roll-off between the sword and the Wizard (or a Charisma check/save against the Wizard spell DC, for example). They're literally contesting each other over the soul.
I think there's an argument for all three. However, I would say that if the Soul Cage wins, Blackrazor loses the soul completely - when the soul is expended by the cage, the 0 HP trigger has passed and the soul is freed rather than defaulting to the sword.
Reactions occur after the trigger completes. Counterspell works because the trigger isn't "a creature casts a spell" but "You see a creature casting a spell". That trigger completes the moment the creature starts casting, but before it finishes.
"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."
Compare:
Shield: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell
Absorb Elements: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage.
Soul Cage: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a humanoid you can see within 60 feet of you dies
If Shield protects against the attack that 'hit", and Absorb Protects against the damage you 'take', ..
then Soul Cage has to happen simultaneously with the victim 'dies'.
If you were correct, then an argument could be made that Soul Cage never does anything at all because once you die your soul instantly goes to heaven.
Your arguments are clearly wrong. The wordings of at least two of the most common reaction spells indicates it happens before the trigger completes.
It is true that Counterspell and a few of the other spells use better wording (or it doesn't matter, such as the case with Hellish Rebuke). But Shield and Absorb Energy make the answer clear.
I dunno, I think it could go either way, depending on the DM, players, and their/your style of play. Personally, I think it’s an interesting and creative way to deal with a very powerful Big Scary Thing, and would allow my players to make a contested check (possibly with disadvantage). But our play style is more focused on creativity and fun, as opposed to gritty and realistic. Also, Soul Cage is a sixth-level spell, so the players can’t use this device too many times without spending a lot of high-level spell slots. I think it just depends on what qualities you prefer in your game.
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Bad Guy Bluto is in possession of Blackrazor. Evil sword eats the souls of those it kills. Goodguy Zay Tay knows the spell Soul Cage cast as a reaction temporarily imprisons souls of humanoids that die in 60ft.
Bluto kills someone. Can Zay Tay grab the soul, saving it from an eternity of hell inside Blackrazor? Yes or no? When Soul Cage ends, is the soul free or does it then get sucked into Black Razor.
I voted for specific over general and blackrazor. But I will explain why as well.
normally when you kill someone/something with a soul, the soul then is released, and soul cage is a reaction to it being released.
when Blackrazor kills something, it steals the soul from it as part of the same killing sequence. So there’s no soul for the soul cage to react to.
this is how I am interpreting it. I might be wrong. But it makes sense to me.
I voted the same way, technically, but I also agree that it's a cool way to save someone from the sword, as a kind of desperate measure. It's also extremely cinematic, and I can hear the howl of rage from the sword when it is denied its soul, and thirsting for that of whoever dared deprive it from its snack. So I think I would allow it.
Agreed.
rule of cool... I would probably allow a contested roll.... although.... depending on how many souls the sword has stolen vs how many the spellcasters has. I might give advantage/disadvantage to one or both or all parties competitive for said soul.
If two effects occur at the same time (i.e. when a creature dies), the creature whose turn it is gets to decide which happens first.
So, it depends. If the wielder of Blackrazor is attacking on their own turn, they’ll probably want the soul to go into the sword. If it’s the victim’s turn (for example, if they’re killed by an attack of opportunity), they may prefer to be Soul Caged, but it’s up to them. And so on.
Reactions always occur after their trigger - unless they specify otherwise (like Shield). It's why the Mage Slayer Feat attack can't work against Misty Step.
I think by the time a character could have taken the Reaction to cast Soul Cage - the sword - which works instantly at the moment of death - would have already taken the soul.
Bad Guy Bluto is in possession of Blackrazor. Evil sword eats the souls of those it kills. Goodguy Zay Tay knows the spell Soul Cage cast as a reaction temporarily imprisons souls of humanoids that die in 60ft.
Bluto kills someone. Can Zay Tay grab the soul, saving it from an eternity of hell inside Blackrazor? Yes or no? When Soul Cage ends, is the soul free or does it then get sucked into Black Razor.
I'm not following why you think the effects are mutually exclusive. 5E is full of ways to end up interacting with the spoopy ghost of someone who's alive and well, let alone something less messy, like this.
The soul triggers both Black Razor's effect and Soul Cage's effect. They're both up. The soul is devoured by the sword, and the devoured soul is in the cage. Mechanically, the soul can't be restored to life at all until Soul Cage ends, after which it takes a wish. Both the swordwielder and the caster get full soul benefits.
Bad Guy Bluto is in possession of Blackrazor. Evil sword eats the souls of those it kills. Goodguy Zay Tay knows the spell Soul Cage cast as a reaction temporarily imprisons souls of humanoids that die in 60ft.
Bluto kills someone. Can Zay Tay grab the soul, saving it from an eternity of hell inside Blackrazor? Yes or no? When Soul Cage ends, is the soul free or does it then get sucked into Black Razor.
From a RAW perspective, I would argue that Blackrazor's effect happens before Soul Cage's trigger. Blackrazor devours the soul when the creature hits 0 HP, whereas Soul Cage can only be used when a creature dies. Arguably, by the time you can react, the dead creature's soul has already been devoured.
From a RAI perspective, reactions normally take place between the events that trigger them and the effect of those events, so the Soul Cage should probably trip before Balckrazor can finish its business.
From a RAF perspective, I much prefer the roll-off between the sword and the Wizard (or a Charisma check/save against the Wizard spell DC, for example). They're literally contesting each other over the soul.
I think there's an argument for all three. However, I would say that if the Soul Cage wins, Blackrazor loses the soul completely - when the soul is expended by the cage, the 0 HP trigger has passed and the soul is freed rather than defaulting to the sword.
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Blackrazor, because reactions (soul cage) occur after trigger.
DxJxC: I am pretty sure that reactions occur before the trigger completes.
I cast a spell. You use your reaction to cast Counterspell. It stops the spell before you complete the casting.
Reactions occur after the trigger completes. Counterspell works because the trigger isn't "a creature casts a spell" but "You see a creature casting a spell". That trigger completes the moment the creature starts casting, but before it finishes.
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"A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."
Compare:
Shield: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell
Absorb Elements: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage.
Soul Cage: Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when a humanoid you can see within 60 feet of you dies
If Shield protects against the attack that 'hit", and Absorb Protects against the damage you 'take', ..
then Soul Cage has to happen simultaneously with the victim 'dies'.
If you were correct, then an argument could be made that Soul Cage never does anything at all because once you die your soul instantly goes to heaven.
Your arguments are clearly wrong. The wordings of at least two of the most common reaction spells indicates it happens before the trigger completes.
It is true that Counterspell and a few of the other spells use better wording (or it doesn't matter, such as the case with Hellish Rebuke). But Shield and Absorb Energy make the answer clear.
I dunno, I think it could go either way, depending on the DM, players, and their/your style of play. Personally, I think it’s an interesting and creative way to deal with a very powerful Big Scary Thing, and would allow my players to make a contested check (possibly with disadvantage). But our play style is more focused on creativity and fun, as opposed to gritty and realistic. Also, Soul Cage is a sixth-level spell, so the players can’t use this device too many times without spending a lot of high-level spell slots. I think it just depends on what qualities you prefer in your game.
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I voted for specific over general and blackrazor. But I will explain why as well.
normally when you kill someone/something with a soul, the soul then is released, and soul cage is a reaction to it being released.
when Blackrazor kills something, it steals the soul from it as part of the same killing sequence. So there’s no soul for the soul cage to react to.
this is how I am interpreting it. I might be wrong. But it makes sense to me.
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Agreed.
rule of cool... I would probably allow a contested roll.... although.... depending on how many souls the sword has stolen vs how many the spellcasters has. I might give advantage/disadvantage to one or both or all parties competitive for said soul.
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If two effects occur at the same time (i.e. when a creature dies), the creature whose turn it is gets to decide which happens first.
So, it depends. If the wielder of Blackrazor is attacking on their own turn, they’ll probably want the soul to go into the sword. If it’s the victim’s turn (for example, if they’re killed by an attack of opportunity), they may prefer to be Soul Caged, but it’s up to them. And so on.
Reactions always occur after their trigger - unless they specify otherwise (like Shield). It's why the Mage Slayer Feat attack can't work against Misty Step.
I think by the time a character could have taken the Reaction to cast Soul Cage - the sword - which works instantly at the moment of death - would have already taken the soul.
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Lyxen already quoted the rule in the DMG reiterating what i said, so I am just going to make a flow chart of events based on timing:
3 is triggered by 2 is triggered by 1. 3 is not triggered by 1.
I'm not following why you think the effects are mutually exclusive. 5E is full of ways to end up interacting with the spoopy ghost of someone who's alive and well, let alone something less messy, like this.
The soul triggers both Black Razor's effect and Soul Cage's effect. They're both up. The soul is devoured by the sword, and the devoured soul is in the cage. Mechanically, the soul can't be restored to life at all until Soul Cage ends, after which it takes a wish. Both the swordwielder and the caster get full soul benefits.