So I'm sure many of you know about the prone Condition. Well I'm not too big a fan of this game's prone condition rules and I feel that prone is not fully flushed out as a mechanic in this game. You would think Prone would give disadvantage to DEX saving rolls since you know, you're on the ground which makes it harder to move unless you crawl. It should also give advantage to shooting with a crossbow at a target outside of 5ft. The best way to shoot is on your belly after all (ex-military). Before anyone says it, yes, I know, a crossbow is not a riffle, but I have done some research and have found many hunters fire crossbows from prone.
However, I do agree with having disadvantage on all other attack rolls except for spells, and you should at least have to get up to kneel when you want to reload a Crossbow (unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat.) You should still be able to cast a spell since you can still use your hands, can still see the target (depending on terrain), and are able to speak.
I know it's a lot for just lying down, but it is an important mechanic and I think one that isn't fully flushed out in regards to the issues I brought up.
How do you guys feel about it? Do you think it is fine as is currently, or do you think this condition should be looked at a bit more? I'm sure this is not the first time this has come up but I figured it would be good to talk about.
You're input is appreciated. :D
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Drow enthusiast Lover of lore and magic. -The White Crow-
The only issue II have about Prone is with the Shove action how if you succeed that action you have the option to knock the person prone. To me why wouldn't you keep on shoving the person prone to get the advantage of the attack. I feel there should be another check to see if the person actually goes prone after if shove action is a success. (I know it goes outside most standard RAW checks of the 1-to-1 contest checks.) I've seen a base Strength 10 successfully shove prone a base Strength 16 (Yes I know it is Athletics vs. I just wanted to give the starting point sans bonus and proficiencies.) sure narrative could be easily explained, and make for a good story, but the numbers tell a much different and probable story.
To your point regarding "You would think Prone would give disadvantage to DEX saving rolls" may be depending on the armor, the character is wearing I could see where something like disadvantage would come into play with heavier armor.
I think your suggestions add a lot of unnecessary complication. If you think your group would have fun with it, then great! Give it a try. I definitely would not.
As a point of realism (and mechanical coherenxe), what you’re describing is really a distinct condition. It is not realistic (or fun) that you should be totally fine to shoot a crossbow after I’ve just thrown you to the ground. If you lie down on purpose to get a better shot, I understand your reasoning that it shouldn’t hamper a crossbow shot. But combatants don’t usually go prone on purpose, and if you want to give a mechanical exception to crossbows, I think you’d be better off just saying that intentionally going prone for this purpose doesn’t impose the prone condition but rather some other condition with whatever effects you want.
5e is based on the idea of simplicity. It isn't a simulator. The prone condition that is in the game is simple and doesn't require a lot of interpretation.
If you are prone, you have disadvantage on attacks and attacks from beyond 5' have disadvantage to hit you. Attacks within 5' have advantage.
Simple.
Your suggested additions.
- disadvantage on dex saves
- have to sit up to reload cross bows
- crossbows but not other ranged weapons have advantage instead of disadvantage at targets more than 5'
- spell attacks do not get disadvantage from prone
However, all of these are based on circumstantial details of the situation.
1) Yes a prone creature can not move as much, however a prone creature is a smaller target for area of effect attacks .. these tend to cancel. Would you rather be standing up or prone if someone threw a hand grenade in your direction? I can see the reduced movement and increased cover effectively canceling ... requiring no change to dex saves. Of course a DM could house rule advantage or disadvantage on a case by case basis depending on the nature of the attack and the effect of being prone but it should not be a general rule.
2) It is somewhat easier to steady and aim a ranged weapon from the prone position. However, being closer to the ground may easily obstruct your ability to see some of your target. It may make it harder to change the aim of the weapon against a fast moving target. There are many circumstances in which being prone might not improve the ability to a moving target at a distance in the middle of combat with various possible scenarios of cover in between. If this is the case, why would a cross bow deserve advantage for all attacks from prone if for most of these attacks there may be effects that cancel resulting in no benefit?
3) Spells typically require somatic components. It is more difficult to wave your hands and access material components and look at a target when you are lying prone and have to wave your hands above your head, aim them at a target and can only use one arm to support yourself while doing so. I can easily see the increased difficulty of the somatic gestures while lying down giving disadvantage on ranged spell attacks. In addition, you have the same difficulty where the landscape may partially obscure the target making it harder to target a spell.
Basically, every one of the situations you suggest are general benefits of being prone. In every case there are likely mitigating effects that cancel or completely eliminate any such benefit - the suggested change adds complexity while not actually increasing the "quality" of the simulation or the realism since there are too many factors to consider in each circumstance to say whether being prone is better or not for any particular action.
Finally, if the situation warrants it, the DM can easily choose to apply advantage or disadvantage on a case by case basis if it seems appropriate. :)
So ... personally ... I think the rule is fine as is ...
The only issue II have about Prone is with the Shove action how if you succeed that action you have the option to knock the person prone.
I have exactly the same problem, it's not a question of realism (like OP suggestion), it just that it makes for damn ugly and repetitive fights when you have a character having Shield Master and a free shove every round, not to mention lengthening the fights quite a bit.
No one has taken the feat recently, but I had to discourage a player (who has since then left the group as he did not fit, being mostly a min-maxer interested in fighting and probing that he was of superior intelligence to every one else) from taking it after telling him that, if he kept using it round after round, the adversaries would start getting advantage to their checks because he was being too obvious. Not to mention the endless discussions as to whether the shove occurs before or after the attack, a can of worm that I don't intend to reopen, ever.
If that is what a character decides to be good at, why take it away from them? You certainly wouldn't deprive a Rogue of their every round Sneak Damage, would you? Any number of other examples could apply.
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So I'm sure many of you know about the prone Condition.
Well I'm not too big a fan of this game's prone condition rules and I feel that prone is not fully flushed out as a mechanic in this game.
You would think Prone would give disadvantage to DEX saving rolls since you know, you're on the ground which makes it harder to move unless you crawl. It should also give advantage to shooting with a crossbow at a target outside of 5ft. The best way to shoot is on your belly after all (ex-military). Before anyone says it, yes, I know, a crossbow is not a riffle, but I have done some research and have found many hunters fire crossbows from prone.
However, I do agree with having disadvantage on all other attack rolls except for spells, and you should at least have to get up to kneel when you want to reload a Crossbow (unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat.) You should still be able to cast a spell since you can still use your hands, can still see the target (depending on terrain), and are able to speak.
I know it's a lot for just lying down, but it is an important mechanic and I think one that isn't fully flushed out in regards to the issues I brought up.
How do you guys feel about it? Do you think it is fine as is currently, or do you think this condition should be looked at a bit more? I'm sure this is not the first time this has come up but I figured it would be good to talk about.
You're input is appreciated. :D
Drow enthusiast
Lover of lore and magic.
-The White Crow-
The only issue II have about Prone is with the Shove action how if you succeed that action you have the option to knock the person prone. To me why wouldn't you keep on shoving the person prone to get the advantage of the attack. I feel there should be another check to see if the person actually goes prone after if shove action is a success. (I know it goes outside most standard RAW checks of the 1-to-1 contest checks.) I've seen a base Strength 10 successfully shove prone a base Strength 16 (Yes I know it is Athletics vs. I just wanted to give the starting point sans bonus and proficiencies.) sure narrative could be easily explained, and make for a good story, but the numbers tell a much different and probable story.
To your point regarding "You would think Prone would give disadvantage to DEX saving rolls" may be depending on the armor, the character is wearing I could see where something like disadvantage would come into play with heavier armor.
I think your suggestions add a lot of unnecessary complication. If you think your group would have fun with it, then great! Give it a try. I definitely would not.
As a point of realism (and mechanical coherenxe), what you’re describing is really a distinct condition. It is not realistic (or fun) that you should be totally fine to shoot a crossbow after I’ve just thrown you to the ground. If you lie down on purpose to get a better shot, I understand your reasoning that it shouldn’t hamper a crossbow shot. But combatants don’t usually go prone on purpose, and if you want to give a mechanical exception to crossbows, I think you’d be better off just saying that intentionally going prone for this purpose doesn’t impose the prone condition but rather some other condition with whatever effects you want.
5e is based on the idea of simplicity. It isn't a simulator. The prone condition that is in the game is simple and doesn't require a lot of interpretation.
If you are prone, you have disadvantage on attacks and attacks from beyond 5' have disadvantage to hit you. Attacks within 5' have advantage.
Simple.
Your suggested additions.
- disadvantage on dex saves
- have to sit up to reload cross bows
- crossbows but not other ranged weapons have advantage instead of disadvantage at targets more than 5'
- spell attacks do not get disadvantage from prone
However, all of these are based on circumstantial details of the situation.
1) Yes a prone creature can not move as much, however a prone creature is a smaller target for area of effect attacks .. these tend to cancel. Would you rather be standing up or prone if someone threw a hand grenade in your direction? I can see the reduced movement and increased cover effectively canceling ... requiring no change to dex saves. Of course a DM could house rule advantage or disadvantage on a case by case basis depending on the nature of the attack and the effect of being prone but it should not be a general rule.
2) It is somewhat easier to steady and aim a ranged weapon from the prone position. However, being closer to the ground may easily obstruct your ability to see some of your target. It may make it harder to change the aim of the weapon against a fast moving target. There are many circumstances in which being prone might not improve the ability to a moving target at a distance in the middle of combat with various possible scenarios of cover in between. If this is the case, why would a cross bow deserve advantage for all attacks from prone if for most of these attacks there may be effects that cancel resulting in no benefit?
3) Spells typically require somatic components. It is more difficult to wave your hands and access material components and look at a target when you are lying prone and have to wave your hands above your head, aim them at a target and can only use one arm to support yourself while doing so. I can easily see the increased difficulty of the somatic gestures while lying down giving disadvantage on ranged spell attacks. In addition, you have the same difficulty where the landscape may partially obscure the target making it harder to target a spell.
Basically, every one of the situations you suggest are general benefits of being prone. In every case there are likely mitigating effects that cancel or completely eliminate any such benefit - the suggested change adds complexity while not actually increasing the "quality" of the simulation or the realism since there are too many factors to consider in each circumstance to say whether being prone is better or not for any particular action.
Finally, if the situation warrants it, the DM can easily choose to apply advantage or disadvantage on a case by case basis if it seems appropriate. :)
So ... personally ... I think the rule is fine as is ...
If that is what a character decides to be good at, why take it away from them? You certainly wouldn't deprive a Rogue of their every round Sneak Damage, would you? Any number of other examples could apply.