On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
Undead Fortitude:
If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.
As written UF says its ability activates when it is first reduced to 0, but the later language says it drops to 1 instead. So maybe it technically isn't reduced to 0? Or maybe it first does then saves itself and gets 1 hp?
From a flavor perspective I can see both scenarios. One where the zombie is effectively killed but it manages to stitch itself back together enough to keep going or, two, where it should be a killing blow but the zombie keeps going regardless.
Also a ruling on disintegrate interacting with half-orc's relentless endurance says it doesn't activate, that the half-orc is reduced to 0 not 1.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash? If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points, you’re killed outright, as you turn to dust. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can’t save you.
Yes, it'll work exactly like Disintegrate interacting with Relentless Endurance - the zombie is dropped to 0, and then both GWM and Undead Fortitude happen simultaneously. Per Xanathar's, order of resolution is determined by active player, so if this is on your turn, you decide - another PC's turn, that player decides. NPC turn, DM decides.
Order matters because of how useful the bonus attack is - you want it to happen second, so you can hit the zombie again if you need to and can do so productively. Likewise, the zombie wants Undead Fortitude to happen second, so your bonus attack can't hurt it.
Undead Fortitude saves drop the creature to 1 hit point instead , which means it triggers nothing from being reduced to 0 hit points since it's not.
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to O hit points but not killed outright. you can drop to I hit point instead.
The same wording, only relentless endurance just works without a roll. OP is correct, disintegrate vs relentless endurance sets precedent that abilities with this wording resolve mechanics that trigger at reducing to 0 before adjusting to 1. OP's posted link isn't a JC tweet, it's a WOTC article on their own site - it's by definition RAW.
GWM shouldn’t interact with undead fortitude unless the the save is failed.
I base this on the same reasoning that “on hit” effects wouldn’t trigger against features like the shield spell that change an already confirmed hit to a miss.
insert the all sacred DM Fiat lingo that everyone seems to care about.
I'm leaning towards it not triggering because disintegrate kills outright and Bobbybaker's argument about on hit effects and shield makes sense to me. But this one does not seem to be very clear, reactions aren't exactly the same as saving throws.
I also think I like the imagery of half a zombie being cleaved off and it still moving rather than it semi stitching itself back together.
I'm leaning towards it not triggering because disintegrate kills outright and Bobbybaker's argument about on hit effects and shield makes sense to me. But this one does not seem to be very clear, reactions aren't exactly the same as saving throws.
I also think I like the imagery of half a zombie being cleaved off and it still moving rather than it semi stitching itself back together.
It's literally the same wording as Relentless Endurance, I don't see how there's room for interpretation, given that you linked an article from WOTC stating how it worked.
I'm leaning towards it not triggering because disintegrate kills outright and Bobbybaker's argument about on hit effects and shield makes sense to me. But this one does not seem to be very clear, reactions aren't exactly the same as saving throws.
I also think I like the imagery of half a zombie being cleaved off and it still moving rather than it semi stitching itself back together.
It's literally the same wording as Relentless Endurance, I don't see how there's room for interpretation, given that you linked an article from WOTC stating how it worked.
The wording killed outright in disintegrate is what does it for me.
I'm leaning towards it not triggering because disintegrate kills outright and Bobbybaker's argument about on hit effects and shield makes sense to me. But this one does not seem to be very clear, reactions aren't exactly the same as saving throws.
I also think I like the imagery of half a zombie being cleaved off and it still moving rather than it semi stitching itself back together.
It's literally the same wording as Relentless Endurance, I don't see how there's room for interpretation, given that you linked an article from WOTC stating how it worked.
But GWM has different wording than disintegrate is their point.
It's literally the same wording as Relentless Endurance, I don't see how there's room for interpretation, given that you linked an article from WOTC stating how it worked.
The wording of Relentless Endurance and Undead Fortitude are similar, but the exemple used in the ruling are not as Great Weapon Master and Desintegrate are very different.
I was reading through the current sage advice and the interaction with disintegrate and relentless endurance has changed. Making it seems much more likely that GWM bonus attack isn't triggered by a successful UF.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash?
Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.
I was reading through the current sage advice and the interaction with disintegrate and relentless endurance has changed. Making it seems much more likely that GWM bonus attack isn't triggered by a successful UF.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash?
Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.
Edit: Actually the wording change has confused me all over again. Is there an order of operations in combat like there is in real world math?
Yes. Any time multiple things would happen simultaneously, active human at the table (so a PC's player during their own turn, and the DM at all other times) just picks an order for them to happen, and they actually happen sequentially. The rules for this are in Xanathar's.
That's the RAW, but it's incredibly metagamey, because you're explicitly told to make this choice OOC. I recommend houseruling that the decision be made IC.
I was reading through the current sage advice and the interaction with disintegrate and relentless endurance has changed. Making it seems much more likely that GWM bonus attack isn't triggered by a successful UF.
If the damage from disintegrate reduces a half-orc to 0 hit points, can Relentless Endurance prevent the orc from turning to ash?
Yes. The disintegrate spell turns you into dust only if the spell’s damage leaves you with 0 hit points. If you’re a half-orc, Relentless Endurance can turn the 0 into a 1 before the spell can disintegrate you.
Edit: Actually the wording change has confused me all over again. Is there an order of operations in combat like there is in real world math?
Yes. Any time multiple things would happen simultaneously, active human at the table (so a PC's player during their own turn, and the DM at all other times) just picks an order for them to happen, and they actually happen sequentially. The rules for this are in Xanathar's.
That's the RAW, but it's incredibly metagamey, because you're explicitly told to make this choice OOC. I recommend houseruling that the decision be made IC.
It’s kind of impossible to do so though in a lot of cases, especially where player agency isn’t involved, like aura stacking (two effects that activate at the start of a turn or when a creature enters an aura). Sometimes the game has to be a game, and this is one of those times
WotC has been pretty consistent for at least a little while with the ruling that all other effects and triggers have to finish before effects that occur if the creature is "left" with 0 hitpoints do. This is consistent for polymorph, wildshape, and these abilities, all of which will foil the effects of disintegrate, while Something like power word kill bypasses all this since it skips dropping to 0 in the first place
Edited to more accurately use language from Disintegrate.
WotC has been pretty consistent for at least a little while with the ruling that all other effects and triggers have to finish before effects that occur upon reaching 0 hitpoints do. This is consistent for polymorph, wildshape, and these abilities, all of which will foil the effects of disintegrate, while Something like power word kill bypasses all this since it skips dropping to 0 in the first place
WotC has been pretty consistent for at least a little while with the ruling that all other effects and triggers have to finish before effects that occur upon reaching 0 hitpoints do. This is consistent for polymorph, wildshape, and these abilities, all of which will foil the effects of disintegrate, while Something like power word kill bypasses all this since it skips dropping to 0 in the first place
In that case GWM would activate?
Yes. Disintegrate says it only activates disintegration if the damage "leaves" the creature with 0 (i changed my original post above to reflect this). Effects that occur at the point of reaching zero would all activate before disintegration, because you don't know if the the creature will be "left" with 0 after those effects occur.
GWM ability triggers upon reducing the enemy to 0, but doesn't say "leaves" an enemy with 0, so it would trigger. It's not even truly simultaneous with Undead Fortitude/relentless endurance, because the actual trigger is granting a bonus action to make an attack, not the attack itself. so the order would be:
GWM reduces an enemy to 0 > Bonus action granted / Undead Fortitude triggers (player decides order if their turn) > GWM then had bonus action they can use to strike again.
GWM reduces an enemy to 0 > Bonus action granted / Undead Fortitude triggers (player decides order if their turn) > GWM then had bonus action they can use to strike again.
With Undead Fortitude, the zombie that saves drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP. Its a substitution. In other word, the Undead never drops to 0 and thus GWP cannot trigger.
GWM reduces an enemy to 0 > Bonus action granted / Undead Fortitude triggers (player decides order if their turn) > GWM then had bonus action they can use to strike again.
With Undead Fortitude, the zombie that saves drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP. Its a substitution. In other word, the Undead never drops to 0 and thus GWP cannot trigger.
I disagree. the creature dropped to 0, and the feat triggers. There is a difference between the GWM text, which says "(when you) reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one" and disintegrate, which says "...if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points." one implies the effect triggering upon damage being dealt, and one implies an effect triggering after all effects impacting damage are resolved. If that distinction is meaningless (which it would be per your interpretation), they why make it at all?
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GWM says:
Undead Fortitude:
As written UF says its ability activates when it is first reduced to 0, but the later language says it drops to 1 instead. So maybe it technically isn't reduced to 0? Or maybe it first does then saves itself and gets 1 hp?
From a flavor perspective I can see both scenarios. One where the zombie is effectively killed but it manages to stitch itself back together enough to keep going or, two, where it should be a killing blow but the zombie keeps going regardless.
Also a ruling on disintegrate interacting with half-orc's relentless endurance says it doesn't activate, that the half-orc is reduced to 0 not 1.
Yes, it'll work exactly like Disintegrate interacting with Relentless Endurance - the zombie is dropped to 0, and then both GWM and Undead Fortitude happen simultaneously. Per Xanathar's, order of resolution is determined by active player, so if this is on your turn, you decide - another PC's turn, that player decides. NPC turn, DM decides.
Order matters because of how useful the bonus attack is - you want it to happen second, so you can hit the zombie again if you need to and can do so productively. Likewise, the zombie wants Undead Fortitude to happen second, so your bonus attack can't hurt it.
Undead Fortitude saves drop the creature to 1 hit point instead , which means it triggers nothing from being reduced to 0 hit points since it's not.
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to
O hit points but not killed outright. you can drop to I hit
point instead.
The same wording, only relentless endurance just works without a roll. OP is correct, disintegrate vs relentless endurance sets precedent that abilities with this wording resolve mechanics that trigger at reducing to 0 before adjusting to 1. OP's posted link isn't a JC tweet, it's a WOTC article on their own site - it's by definition RAW.
Desintegrate kills you outright if reduced to 0 hit points as it desintegrate you, hence why it doesn't work.
Sage Advice: If disintegrate reduces you to 0 hit points, you’re killed outright.
Relentless Endurance: When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead.
GWM shouldn’t interact with undead fortitude unless the the save is failed.
I base this on the same reasoning that “on hit” effects wouldn’t trigger against features like the shield spell that change an already confirmed hit to a miss.
insert the all sacred DM Fiat lingo that everyone seems to care about.
I'm leaning towards it not triggering because disintegrate kills outright and Bobbybaker's argument about on hit effects and shield makes sense to me. But this one does not seem to be very clear, reactions aren't exactly the same as saving throws.
I also think I like the imagery of half a zombie being cleaved off and it still moving rather than it semi stitching itself back together.
It's literally the same wording as Relentless Endurance, I don't see how there's room for interpretation, given that you linked an article from WOTC stating how it worked.
The wording killed outright in disintegrate is what does it for me.
But GWM has different wording than disintegrate is their point.
The wording of Relentless Endurance and Undead Fortitude are similar, but the exemple used in the ruling are not as Great Weapon Master and Desintegrate are very different.
I was reading through the current sage advice and the interaction with disintegrate and relentless endurance has changed. Making it seems much more likely that GWM bonus attack isn't triggered by a successful UF.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA177
Edit: Actually the wording change has confused me all over again. Is there an order of operations in combat like there is in real world math?
Both of these features are triggered by being reduced to 0. Therefore, they both activate.
Yes. Any time multiple things would happen simultaneously, active human at the table (so a PC's player during their own turn, and the DM at all other times) just picks an order for them to happen, and they actually happen sequentially. The rules for this are in Xanathar's.
That's the RAW, but it's incredibly metagamey, because you're explicitly told to make this choice OOC. I recommend houseruling that the decision be made IC.
It’s kind of impossible to do so though in a lot of cases, especially where player agency isn’t involved, like aura stacking (two effects that activate at the start of a turn or when a creature enters an aura). Sometimes the game has to be a game, and this is one of those times
WotC has been pretty consistent for at least a little while with the ruling that all other effects and triggers have to finish before effects that occur if the creature is "left" with 0 hitpoints do. This is consistent for polymorph, wildshape, and these abilities, all of which will foil the effects of disintegrate, while Something like power word kill bypasses all this since it skips dropping to 0 in the first place
Edited to more accurately use language from Disintegrate.
In that case GWM would activate?
Yes. Disintegrate says it only activates disintegration if the damage "leaves" the creature with 0 (i changed my original post above to reflect this). Effects that occur at the point of reaching zero would all activate before disintegration, because you don't know if the the creature will be "left" with 0 after those effects occur.
GWM ability triggers upon reducing the enemy to 0, but doesn't say "leaves" an enemy with 0, so it would trigger. It's not even truly simultaneous with Undead Fortitude/relentless endurance, because the actual trigger is granting a bonus action to make an attack, not the attack itself. so the order would be:
GWM reduces an enemy to 0 > Bonus action granted / Undead Fortitude triggers (player decides order if their turn) > GWM then had bonus action they can use to strike again.
With Undead Fortitude, the zombie that saves drop to 1 HP instead of 0 HP. Its a substitution. In other word, the Undead never drops to 0 and thus GWP cannot trigger.
I disagree. the creature dropped to 0, and the feat triggers. There is a difference between the GWM text, which says "(when you) reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one" and disintegrate, which says "...if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points." one implies the effect triggering upon damage being dealt, and one implies an effect triggering after all effects impacting damage are resolved. If that distinction is meaningless (which it would be per your interpretation), they why make it at all?