Anyone use this optional rule, where you can learn tool and skill proficienciencies and feats? If so, do you consider the balance aspect of it? For sure, balancing a tool or weapon proficiency seems like it's more or less not needed but as for skill proficiencies it gets a little bit trickier perhaps, at least if it happens several times. Then again, spending a lot of time on it and becoming a bit better at some skills isn't too bad in my opinion either way... The real "problem" comes when you start adding feats. Some feats seem moderately balanced and wouldn't impact the game too much, but some feats, in addition to the cool and fun flavor of the things you can do, also add attributes. This seems like it could easily become unbalanced.
How do you handle it in your games? Personally I used it only through the random background lists that sometimes add them, but never rewarded them as a downtime activity. I do like the idea of learning a specific tool or skill proficiency though and I would consider adding some feats something that could be really fitting at times, like someone spent a lot of time in the feywild could get the fey touched feat for instance. But other than that it feels like most are too strong and more balanced by picking either them or the +2 to attributes at every 4th level.
Or is there some part of the rules I missed that limits them in any way?
Tool Proficiencies, yes, and the skill to use them, as a new custom skill. They can learn to cook, for example. Weapon proficiencies, no. That's too powerful. Classes are strongly based around those. Feats? No way. Those can make a huge difference in the things that a character can do and being able to get one every time they get an Ability Score Increase good as is. Adding to Scores is a huge "No way" as well, that's what ASI's are for.
I've had characters which the "First Aid" skill, and made them proficient in using a Healer's Kit. I have a character with "Riding", as a sub-category of the Animal Handling proficiency. If they have Animal Handling already, they don't need it, but if they spent the time just to learn how to ride a horse, there they have it, and they can be Proficient in using it.
I'm particularly found of using the customization option in the bottom of the character sheet you make with the Character Builder tool to add in that proficiency with Thieves' Tools, so I can show the proper level of proficiency (I can be "Not", "Half", "Proficient", or have "Expertise") and click the button next to the skill for a roll that shows up in the combat log correctly with all modifiers.
If you want "fun flavor" let them grab Proficiency in Etiquette so the can make a roll to be courteous. (Not using the existing skills, this isn't Persuasion, this is knowing the right words to use in order to be formal. If they have Persuasion, they can just that. This is for people who don't have it.)
I'm only aware of downtime activities to learn language skills or tool proficiencies, what's listed in Xanathar's basically. Picking a Feat has always been an "optional rule", you take the feat instead of the ability score increase. Is there something else you are referring to for rule sources dot113?
A character might be offered special training in lieu of a financial reward. This kind of training isn’t widely available and thus is highly desirable. It presumes the existence of a skilled trainer — perhaps a retired adventurer or champion who is willing to serve as a mentor. The trainer might be a reclusive wizard or haughty sorcerer who owes the queen a favor, the knight-commander of the King’s Guard, the leader of a powerful druid circle, a quirky monk who lives in a remote mountaintop pagoda, a barbarian chieftain, a warlock living among nomads as a fortune-teller, or an absentminded bard whose plays and poetry are known throughout the land.
A character who agrees to training as a reward must spend downtime with the trainer (see chapter 6 for more information on downtime activities). In exchange, the character is guaranteed to receive a special benefit. Possible training benefits include the following:
The character gains inspiration daily at dawn for 1d4 + 6 days.
The character gains proficiency in a skill.
The character gains a feat.
From the DMG, other rewards section.
Basically as a reward for services performed somehow. Of course being a reward and needing a trainer means it's easy to limit in some ways, but if one trainer is available for one character why shouldn't it be for another?
Tool Proficiencies, yes, and the skill to use them, as a new custom skill. They can learn to cook, for example. Weapon proficiencies, no. That's too powerful. Classes are strongly based around those. Feats? No way. Those can make a huge difference in the things that a character can do and being able to get one every time they get an Ability Score Increase good as is. Adding to Scores is a huge "No way" as well, that's what ASI's are for.
I've had characters which the "First Aid" skill, and made them proficient in using a Healer's Kit. I have a character with "Riding", as a sub-category of the Animal Handling proficiency. If they have Animal Handling already, they don't need it, but if they spent the time just to learn how to ride a horse, there they have it, and they can be Proficient in using it.
I'm particularly found of using the customization option in the bottom of the character sheet you make with the Character Builder tool to add in that proficiency with Thieves' Tools, so I can show the proper level of proficiency (I can be "Not", "Half", "Proficient", or have "Expertise") and click the button next to the skill for a roll that shows up in the combat log correctly with all modifiers.
If you want "fun flavor" let them grab Proficiency in Etiquette so the can make a roll to be courteous. (Not using the existing skills, this isn't Persuasion, this is knowing the right words to use in order to be formal. If they have Persuasion, they can just that. This is for people who don't have it.)
Yeah this is kinda what I'm getting at. I once had a character get the Chef feat just because it added flavor and roleplaying situations and I don't mind those kinda things. Also, to be fair, a +1 ASI once in a while isn't too bad, but more than 1 is starting to get a bit much I think. I think armor proficiency is a bit tricky because it would add much needed AC to classes like wizards that shouldn't have it that easy, but as for weapon proficiencies I don't think they add very much. For ranged weapons it's basically crossbow vs longbow where the biggest issue is multiple attacks and longbows are better since the crossbow needs a reload, but considering most classes have just 1 attack it's no issue. The ones with more attacks already have martial proficiency. As for melee, it's more or less the same damage. A rogue wouldn't want any other weapons anyways since if it isn't finesse they can't sneak attack. A monk wouldn't be able to use its monk damage since just because you can use it doesn't make it a monk weapon. A wizard with a longsword is good sure, but elves get it for free so they already exist without being overpowered. Good, yes, but not overpowered.
I could also, like I said, see someone getting the fey touched feat by spending so much time trapped in the fey wild as some cool kinda reward thingy, the ASI that comes with it is the bigger issue kinda. In the same way I can see someone getting the healer feat, or possibly one of the weapon feats like crusher, after training with a certain master... Some feats certainly are a bit too powerful though, but some seem fairer, those that are rarely picked or just aren't as powerful. But it's tricky. Not sure how to balance it.
The thing is we are planning a long long campaign that will run from 1 to high, but we will limit leveling up a bit so it will take some time. The plan is for a lot of downtime and such activities and also the consideration of new ways to reward the party, since leveling up will be scarce it feels like a few skills or a feat here and there could be a proper reward, sometimes. But just seems hard to balance :)
OK, so...if the group does something utterly amazing, they might get a Feat or Skill from the special Training in the Other Rewards section. I probably haven't read this section in a very long time as I know it pertained mostly to high level characters. As far as how to balance it? Probably a one time deal in the character's career. But, hey...you can stack Epic Boons so, who says there's a limit on how many fortresses you are rewarded or Feats you can train?
A character might be offered special training in lieu of a financial reward. This kind of training isn’t widely available and thus is highly desirable. It presumes the existence of a skilled trainer — perhaps a retired adventurer or champion who is willing to serve as a mentor. The trainer might be a reclusive wizard or haughty sorcerer who owes the queen a favor, the knight-commander of the King’s Guard, the leader of a powerful druid circle, a quirky monk who lives in a remote mountaintop pagoda, a barbarian chieftain, a warlock living among nomads as a fortune-teller, or an absentminded bard whose plays and poetry are known throughout the land.
A character who agrees to training as a reward must spend downtime with the trainer (see chapter 6 for more information on downtime activities). In exchange, the character is guaranteed to receive a special benefit. Possible training benefits include the following:
The character gains inspiration daily at dawn for 1d4 + 6 days.
The character gains proficiency in a skill.
The character gains a feat.
From the DMG, other rewards section.
Basically as a reward for services performed somehow. Of course being a reward and needing a trainer means it's easy to limit in some ways, but if one trainer is available for one character why shouldn't it be for another?
Okay but training takes week s of downtime,money and you to provide the proper trainer.Which basically means you have complete and udder control over training,so you don't need to consider balance ahead of time.
OK, so...if the group does something utterly amazing, they might get a Feat or Skill from the special Training in the Other Rewards section. I probably haven't read this section in a very long time as I know it pertained mostly to high level characters. As far as how to balance it? Probably a one time deal in the character's career. But, hey...you can stack Epic Boons so, who says there's a limit on how many fortresses you are rewarded or Feats you can train?
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Feats can be a fun way to make a character more interesting, and rewarding them with feats might make the players have more depth than it would otherwise since you might feel you need to use that feat/asi to actually become better at what you do. Certain feats aren't picked as often for a reason.
It is probably made a bit with higher level characters in mind yeah, but it's only epic boons that have a level noted on them to be fair. I can see a fighter training at a mage hunter guild getting that feat at earlier levels for instance.
A character might be offered special training in lieu of a financial reward. This kind of training isn’t widely available and thus is highly desirable. It presumes the existence of a skilled trainer — perhaps a retired adventurer or champion who is willing to serve as a mentor. The trainer might be a reclusive wizard or haughty sorcerer who owes the queen a favor, the knight-commander of the King’s Guard, the leader of a powerful druid circle, a quirky monk who lives in a remote mountaintop pagoda, a barbarian chieftain, a warlock living among nomads as a fortune-teller, or an absentminded bard whose plays and poetry are known throughout the land.
A character who agrees to training as a reward must spend downtime with the trainer (see chapter 6 for more information on downtime activities). In exchange, the character is guaranteed to receive a special benefit. Possible training benefits include the following:
The character gains inspiration daily at dawn for 1d4 + 6 days.
The character gains proficiency in a skill.
The character gains a feat.
From the DMG, other rewards section.
Basically as a reward for services performed somehow. Of course being a reward and needing a trainer means it's easy to limit in some ways, but if one trainer is available for one character why shouldn't it be for another?
Okay but training takes week s of downtime,money and you to provide the proper trainer.Which basically means you have complete and udder control over training,so you don't need to consider balance ahead of time.
Well, except, if the trainer is there, it's there. If it's there for one character it should be there for all. If the original thought is the trainer gives X feat and another gives Y feat, why shouldn't one player with enough time and money get X and Y?
It's easy to think, this is meant to be a reward for a one time thing, like a god giving a certain boon or similar, but it's a whole other thing to say this is sword master Dashian, he will train one of you and only one of you, once. Then he disappears in a puff of smoke never to be seen again. If it's a trainer, that is introduced, even if the original plan is a one time/player thing, it would need to make sense that not anyone can train there, because sooner or later another player would do something good enough to warrant training there even if they already trained elsewhere and then it's just bad DM'ing to say "nah, he's not there". I'd rather have a good reason for it.
Just saying "for balance" isn't good enough, it's a good reason but I wan't a better one, an "in-game" reason.
Let's start with a Rogue. They get Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, and shortswords as their base proficiencies. Notice that those last four are Martial. So then, why do those go on the list? Because they are classic weapons that Rogues have used in the past. If you let people learn new weapons, let alone whole categories of them, you are removing a class feature from the game. It's a tiny difference, but it still remains, and everyone else may want something more for themselves as well. What do you give a Fighter? They can use all Simple and Martial weapons.
Warlocks adore using Polearms. They love them so much that they are specifically forbidden to use weapons with the Two-handed tag. They have to wait until 3rd level. Why? Because so many people take a one or two level "dip" into Warlock for all the toys they get. They are bad enough as it is, and this is what you want to give them.
The choice between raising Scores or taking Feats is one of the most interesting parts of making character builds. Which feats, at what level, and how important are the Scores against the flexibility that a Feat gives? If you start handing them out just for money and time, they get out of control in a hurry, and the whole ASI vs Feats decision becomes irrelevant.
Armor is one of those base features of the class. Sharing it around isn't fair. It keeps coming back to the point, what do you give everyone else?
Fey Touched being gained by spending time in the Feywild does indeed make sense. I'd be perfectly happy to hand that out at level 17, but not before then. It's on the level of an Epic boon in that it's not something I'd care to have a player using before Tier 4. The player must not have wanted it much either, or they would have grabbed it themselves. A Variant Human can do that at first level. I also might be happy to hand it out earlier, but in mythology, spending time in the land of the Fey Folk has a huge hazard. Time passes in strange ways, and people were known to stumble into the equivalent of the Feywild, take part in a wonderful revel over one night, and return to their homes 20 years later.
As long as every has fun, there is no wrong way to play D&D. I'd suggest you talk it over with your players, try it, and see what happens. As long as they know they may have to revise their characters later, I don't see any harm in that.
Well, if you consider that the heroic chronicles give out some feats "for free" anyways, this isn't much different. Dungeon delver for being stuck in a dungeon for a few years, seems fair.
As for weapons, i'm quite aware what they do and they aren't that overpowered, not even for a warlock. Good, yes, overpowered, no. Giving a wizard heavy armor on the other hand is overpowered. Not even on the same scale.
Feytouched is a really good feat so anyone who wanted it probably would take it anyways, it's worth picking. I just used it as an example because it can have a good easy explanation for why you got it, probably more so than what most people who pick it have.
But that's beside the discussion anyways, I'm not saying people will be getting tons of feats before level 5, it will more likely be on higher levels but it can still be overpowered if not handled carefully. And part of the point isn't to be handing them out only for gold and time, but that if part of the reward is that they get access to this trainer for some reason, they save the prince or something, why can't someone else do it after? If the option is there, through other sources than the divine, it should be there for many people if they are clever enough. So, if the option ever gets used, why shouldn't everyone be able to take it?
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Anyone use this optional rule, where you can learn tool and skill proficienciencies and feats? If so, do you consider the balance aspect of it? For sure, balancing a tool or weapon proficiency seems like it's more or less not needed but as for skill proficiencies it gets a little bit trickier perhaps, at least if it happens several times. Then again, spending a lot of time on it and becoming a bit better at some skills isn't too bad in my opinion either way... The real "problem" comes when you start adding feats. Some feats seem moderately balanced and wouldn't impact the game too much, but some feats, in addition to the cool and fun flavor of the things you can do, also add attributes. This seems like it could easily become unbalanced.
How do you handle it in your games? Personally I used it only through the random background lists that sometimes add them, but never rewarded them as a downtime activity. I do like the idea of learning a specific tool or skill proficiency though and I would consider adding some feats something that could be really fitting at times, like someone spent a lot of time in the feywild could get the fey touched feat for instance. But other than that it feels like most are too strong and more balanced by picking either them or the +2 to attributes at every 4th level.
Or is there some part of the rules I missed that limits them in any way?
Tool Proficiencies, yes, and the skill to use them, as a new custom skill. They can learn to cook, for example. Weapon proficiencies, no. That's too powerful. Classes are strongly based around those. Feats? No way. Those can make a huge difference in the things that a character can do and being able to get one every time they get an Ability Score Increase good as is. Adding to Scores is a huge "No way" as well, that's what ASI's are for.
I've had characters which the "First Aid" skill, and made them proficient in using a Healer's Kit. I have a character with "Riding", as a sub-category of the Animal Handling proficiency. If they have Animal Handling already, they don't need it, but if they spent the time just to learn how to ride a horse, there they have it, and they can be Proficient in using it.
I'm particularly found of using the customization option in the bottom of the character sheet you make with the Character Builder tool to add in that proficiency with Thieves' Tools, so I can show the proper level of proficiency (I can be "Not", "Half", "Proficient", or have "Expertise") and click the button next to the skill for a roll that shows up in the combat log correctly with all modifiers.
If you want "fun flavor" let them grab Proficiency in Etiquette so the can make a roll to be courteous. (Not using the existing skills, this isn't Persuasion, this is knowing the right words to use in order to be formal. If they have Persuasion, they can just that. This is for people who don't have it.)
<Insert clever signature here>
I'm only aware of downtime activities to learn language skills or tool proficiencies, what's listed in Xanathar's basically. Picking a Feat has always been an "optional rule", you take the feat instead of the ability score increase. Is there something else you are referring to for rule sources dot113?
Training
A character might be offered special training in lieu of a financial reward. This kind of training isn’t widely available and thus is highly desirable. It presumes the existence of a skilled trainer — perhaps a retired adventurer or champion who is willing to serve as a mentor. The trainer might be a reclusive wizard or haughty sorcerer who owes the queen a favor, the knight-commander of the King’s Guard, the leader of a powerful druid circle, a quirky monk who lives in a remote mountaintop pagoda, a barbarian chieftain, a warlock living among nomads as a fortune-teller, or an absentminded bard whose plays and poetry are known throughout the land.
A character who agrees to training as a reward must spend downtime with the trainer (see chapter 6 for more information on downtime activities). In exchange, the character is guaranteed to receive a special benefit. Possible training benefits include the following:
From the DMG, other rewards section.
Basically as a reward for services performed somehow. Of course being a reward and needing a trainer means it's easy to limit in some ways, but if one trainer is available for one character why shouldn't it be for another?
Yeah this is kinda what I'm getting at. I once had a character get the Chef feat just because it added flavor and roleplaying situations and I don't mind those kinda things. Also, to be fair, a +1 ASI once in a while isn't too bad, but more than 1 is starting to get a bit much I think. I think armor proficiency is a bit tricky because it would add much needed AC to classes like wizards that shouldn't have it that easy, but as for weapon proficiencies I don't think they add very much. For ranged weapons it's basically crossbow vs longbow where the biggest issue is multiple attacks and longbows are better since the crossbow needs a reload, but considering most classes have just 1 attack it's no issue. The ones with more attacks already have martial proficiency. As for melee, it's more or less the same damage. A rogue wouldn't want any other weapons anyways since if it isn't finesse they can't sneak attack. A monk wouldn't be able to use its monk damage since just because you can use it doesn't make it a monk weapon. A wizard with a longsword is good sure, but elves get it for free so they already exist without being overpowered. Good, yes, but not overpowered.
I could also, like I said, see someone getting the fey touched feat by spending so much time trapped in the fey wild as some cool kinda reward thingy, the ASI that comes with it is the bigger issue kinda. In the same way I can see someone getting the healer feat, or possibly one of the weapon feats like crusher, after training with a certain master... Some feats certainly are a bit too powerful though, but some seem fairer, those that are rarely picked or just aren't as powerful. But it's tricky. Not sure how to balance it.
The thing is we are planning a long long campaign that will run from 1 to high, but we will limit leveling up a bit so it will take some time. The plan is for a lot of downtime and such activities and also the consideration of new ways to reward the party, since leveling up will be scarce it feels like a few skills or a feat here and there could be a proper reward, sometimes. But just seems hard to balance :)
Btw, love the etiquette and riding thing.
OK, so...if the group does something utterly amazing, they might get a Feat or Skill from the special Training in the Other Rewards section. I probably haven't read this section in a very long time as I know it pertained mostly to high level characters. As far as how to balance it? Probably a one time deal in the character's career. But, hey...you can stack Epic Boons so, who says there's a limit on how many fortresses you are rewarded or Feats you can train?
Okay but training takes week s of downtime,money and you to provide the proper trainer.Which basically means you have complete and udder control over training,so you don't need to consider balance ahead of time.
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Feats can be a fun way to make a character more interesting, and rewarding them with feats might make the players have more depth than it would otherwise since you might feel you need to use that feat/asi to actually become better at what you do. Certain feats aren't picked as often for a reason.
It is probably made a bit with higher level characters in mind yeah, but it's only epic boons that have a level noted on them to be fair. I can see a fighter training at a mage hunter guild getting that feat at earlier levels for instance.
Well, except, if the trainer is there, it's there. If it's there for one character it should be there for all. If the original thought is the trainer gives X feat and another gives Y feat, why shouldn't one player with enough time and money get X and Y?
It's easy to think, this is meant to be a reward for a one time thing, like a god giving a certain boon or similar, but it's a whole other thing to say this is sword master Dashian, he will train one of you and only one of you, once. Then he disappears in a puff of smoke never to be seen again. If it's a trainer, that is introduced, even if the original plan is a one time/player thing, it would need to make sense that not anyone can train there, because sooner or later another player would do something good enough to warrant training there even if they already trained elsewhere and then it's just bad DM'ing to say "nah, he's not there". I'd rather have a good reason for it.
Just saying "for balance" isn't good enough, it's a good reason but I wan't a better one, an "in-game" reason.
Let's start with a Rogue. They get Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, and shortswords as their base proficiencies. Notice that those last four are Martial. So then, why do those go on the list? Because they are classic weapons that Rogues have used in the past. If you let people learn new weapons, let alone whole categories of them, you are removing a class feature from the game. It's a tiny difference, but it still remains, and everyone else may want something more for themselves as well. What do you give a Fighter? They can use all Simple and Martial weapons.
Warlocks adore using Polearms. They love them so much that they are specifically forbidden to use weapons with the Two-handed tag. They have to wait until 3rd level. Why? Because so many people take a one or two level "dip" into Warlock for all the toys they get. They are bad enough as it is, and this is what you want to give them.
The choice between raising Scores or taking Feats is one of the most interesting parts of making character builds. Which feats, at what level, and how important are the Scores against the flexibility that a Feat gives? If you start handing them out just for money and time, they get out of control in a hurry, and the whole ASI vs Feats decision becomes irrelevant.
Armor is one of those base features of the class. Sharing it around isn't fair. It keeps coming back to the point, what do you give everyone else?
Fey Touched being gained by spending time in the Feywild does indeed make sense. I'd be perfectly happy to hand that out at level 17, but not before then. It's on the level of an Epic boon in that it's not something I'd care to have a player using before Tier 4. The player must not have wanted it much either, or they would have grabbed it themselves. A Variant Human can do that at first level. I also might be happy to hand it out earlier, but in mythology, spending time in the land of the Fey Folk has a huge hazard. Time passes in strange ways, and people were known to stumble into the equivalent of the Feywild, take part in a wonderful revel over one night, and return to their homes 20 years later.
As long as every has fun, there is no wrong way to play D&D. I'd suggest you talk it over with your players, try it, and see what happens. As long as they know they may have to revise their characters later, I don't see any harm in that.
<Insert clever signature here>
Well, if you consider that the heroic chronicles give out some feats "for free" anyways, this isn't much different. Dungeon delver for being stuck in a dungeon for a few years, seems fair.
As for weapons, i'm quite aware what they do and they aren't that overpowered, not even for a warlock. Good, yes, overpowered, no. Giving a wizard heavy armor on the other hand is overpowered. Not even on the same scale.
Feytouched is a really good feat so anyone who wanted it probably would take it anyways, it's worth picking. I just used it as an example because it can have a good easy explanation for why you got it, probably more so than what most people who pick it have.
But that's beside the discussion anyways, I'm not saying people will be getting tons of feats before level 5, it will more likely be on higher levels but it can still be overpowered if not handled carefully. And part of the point isn't to be handing them out only for gold and time, but that if part of the reward is that they get access to this trainer for some reason, they save the prince or something, why can't someone else do it after? If the option is there, through other sources than the divine, it should be there for many people if they are clever enough. So, if the option ever gets used, why shouldn't everyone be able to take it?