(1) There is no official mechanism for forcing another character into a Bag of Holding, so nothing happens unless the DM allows it.
(2) A Demilich has legendary resistances, so if the stars align and you get a chance to attempt this tactic, it may simply choose to beat the imposed saving throw.
(3) Personally, anything the players want to attempt should be allowed, but it will require a series of difficult checks appropriate for how well they execute their plan. Demiliches are extremely intelligent and have Truesight, so if played correctly, shouldn't allow themselves to be tricked easily.
I guess the real question is what keeps it from getting out?
I guess tie a rope around the sack? I suppose you'd get another bag of holding for the rest of your stuff, because that one is occupied, lol - or wait till you are in an advantageous position (not in his lair, for example) before letting it out again. Or just in the next adventure open the bag and toss it into the enemy camp and run away - "surprise - angry Demilich!"
(1) There is no official mechanism for forcing another character into a Bag of Holding, so nothing happens unless the DM allows it.
(2) A Demilich has legendary resistances, so if the stars align and you get a chance to attempt this tactic, it may simply choose to beat the imposed saving throw.
(3) Personally, anything the players want to attempt should be allowed, but it will require a series of difficult checks appropriate for how well they execute their plan. Demiliches are extremely intelligent and have Truesight, so if played correctly, shouldn't allow themselves to be tricked easily.
I was thinking of it as more like trying to catch anything floating / hovering in a sack. It's reasonable to think it must be "possible" to do, but the mechanics would be up to the DM it seems. I suppose the DM would have to decide if it's a save (hopefully strength? lol) or another kind of contested roll. But I was also thinking it just requires object interaction to pick up the bag, then action to try to bag it - so if the person attempting to bag it goes down, someone else can pick up the bag.
That's the amazing thing about this game - an all powerful Demilich can be captured by a lowly minion carrying the master's bag of holding ... theoretically, lol.
You could force the Demilich into the bag by grappling/shoving it, which wouldn't involve any saving throws.
Wow, the moral of this story, if your future plans include becoming a demilich, is to make sure you gain the acrobatics skill along the way.
(You may need this because beholders and similar creatures rarely have the sense to fly high and out of reach).
Both the grapple and the shove can be contested with acrobatics which would, unfortunately, be represented by the base dex 20 of the demilich (rather than by its strength 1). Get an ally to be ready to close and fasten the bag and perhaps step back while facing the bag away from you. I'd rule that the demilich's truesight would give it some ability to see out of the bag and that some of its ranged effects could work out of the bag.
You could force the Demilich into the bag by grappling/shoving it, which wouldn't involve any saving throws.
Wow, the moral of this story, if your future plans include becoming a demilich, is to make sure you gain the acrobatics skill along the way.
(You may need this because beholders and similar creatures rarely have the sense to fly high and out of reach).
Both the grapple and the shove can be contested with acrobatics which would, unfortunately, be represented by the base dex 20 of the demilich (rather than by its strength 1). Get an ally to be ready to close and fasten the bag and perhaps step back while facing the bag away from you. I'd rule that the demilich's truesight would give it some ability to see out of the bag and that some of its ranged effects could work out of the bag.
My understanding of the bag of holding (which could be wrong, of course) is that the bag of holding puts the contents on the astral plane, so they are no longer actually in the location on the material plane. My understanding is that the Ethereal Plane is the one that "shares space" with the Prime Material Plane. Although, my understanding of the planes is very heavily rooted in 1st edition DMG diagrams and 3e -5e changes don't really make that much sense to me.
You could force the Demilich into the bag by grappling/shoving it, which wouldn't involve any saving throws.
Wow, the moral of this story, if your future plans include becoming a demilich, is to make sure you gain the acrobatics skill along the way.
(You may need this because beholders and similar creatures rarely have the sense to fly high and out of reach).
Both the grapple and the shove can be contested with acrobatics which would, unfortunately, be represented by the base dex 20 of the demilich (rather than by its strength 1). Get an ally to be ready to close and fasten the bag and perhaps step back while facing the bag away from you. I'd rule that the demilich's truesight would give it some ability to see out of the bag and that some of its ranged effects could work out of the bag.
My understanding of the bag of holding (which could be wrong, of course) is that the bag of holding puts the contents on the astral plane, so they are no longer actually in the location on the material plane. My understanding is that the Ethereal Plane is the one that "shares space" with the Prime Material Plane. Although, my understanding of the planes is very heavily rooted in 1st edition DMG diagrams and 3e -5e changes don't really make that much sense to me.
A bag of holding that ruptures dumps its contents into the Astral Plane. For some reason, bags of holding lack the usual language items like it have specifying that the insides are an extradimensional space - contrast with a handy haversack, which explicitly says that, meaning a haversack's insides are their own pocket dimensions (each haversack has 3 portals, each of which connects to a unique pocket dimension), It's my experience that most DMs ignore this and have the bag obey the same rules as everything else like it (including the bag of devouring, which is also explicitly extradimensional). Point is, there's no rule saying a bag of holding's innards are on the Astral Plane rather than the "usual" pocket dimension.
Because the bag of holding lacks this language, a DM is intrinsically not homebrewing if they rule the bag of holding's belly is not extraplanar at all, like GergKyae implied. It's entirely within the text of the item for the innards to remain on the Prime Material. The primary problem with this is that it lets you stuff bags of holding into each other, since you've ruled they don't violate their own ban on extradimensional spaces produced by items, and the RAI on bags of holding appears to be that they're intended not to be nestable.
We often have to consult 5 different places to get a better explanation of the rules - then we find another and that contraindicates, lol.
When I read the description of Handy Harversack you linked, it says this: Placing the haversack inside an extradimensional space created by a bag of holding, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane.
So a bag of holding is an extradimensional space, but that description is in the Handy Harversack item's listing.
If I was the DM: you bag it, it bites the inside, it and anyone carrying the bag goes to the Astral Plane, it basically gets to murder that one character coming with it (CR 18 with an instant-death ability? Yeah, a lone PC ain't gonna do much), and then finds its way back to Material Plane where it will hatch a plan to get terrible, murderous, revenge - probably by offering secrets of lichdom so some aspiring evil mage that is more than willing to find you, dream spell you into exhaustion, then polymorph>power word kill you.
Probably better to just fight the demilich directly rather than cheese the game let it learn about you and escape, having pissed it off. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You could force the Demilich into the bag by grappling/shoving it, which wouldn't involve any saving throws.
Wow, the moral of this story, if your future plans include becoming a demilich, is to make sure you gain the acrobatics skill along the way.
(You may need this because beholders and similar creatures rarely have the sense to fly high and out of reach).
Both the grapple and the shove can be contested with acrobatics which would, unfortunately, be represented by the base dex 20 of the demilich (rather than by its strength 1). Get an ally to be ready to close and fasten the bag and perhaps step back while facing the bag away from you. I'd rule that the demilich's truesight would give it some ability to see out of the bag and that some of its ranged effects could work out of the bag.
My understanding of the bag of holding (which could be wrong, of course) is that the bag of holding puts the contents on the astral plane, so they are no longer actually in the location on the material plane. My understanding is that the Ethereal Plane is the one that "shares space" with the Prime Material Plane. Although, my understanding of the planes is very heavily rooted in 1st edition DMG diagrams and 3e -5e changes don't really make that much sense to me.
A bag of holding that ruptures dumps its contents into the Astral Plane. For some reason, bags of holding lack the usual language items like it have specifying that the insides are an extradimensional space - contrast with a handy haversack, which explicitly says that, meaning a haversack's insides are their own pocket dimensions (each haversack has 3 portals, each of which connects to a unique pocket dimension), It's my experience that most DMs ignore this and have the bag obey the same rules as everything else like it (including the bag of devouring, which is also explicitly extradimensional). Point is, there's no rule saying a bag of holding's innards are on the Astral Plane rather than the "usual" pocket dimension.
Because the bag of holding lacks this language, a DM is intrinsically not homebrewing if they rule the bag of holding's belly is not extraplanar at all, like GergKyae implied. It's entirely within the text of the item for the innards to remain on the Prime Material. The primary problem with this is that it lets you stuff bags of holding into each other, since you've ruled they don't violate their own ban on extradimensional spaces produced by items, and the RAI on bags of holding appears to be that they're intended not to be nestable.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything. I was just interpreting that closing the bag just simply acted in a similar way to closing a door. In this case, there could still be an edge through which an influence might propagate.
If closing the bag completely cut off the connection between the two planes then, yes, this would be the case.
Maybe I've been thinking too much about artificer infused bags of holding which might potentially have less ability to make a tight seal.
Glad you're not the DM. What you would do sounds a kinda like cheesing the game, but against the players.
I agree though the DemiLich could damage the inside of the bag, and would also know what would happen if he did this - and he would have to choose if he wants to be banished to the Astral Plane or not.
The Demilich would also need to consider many complex variables in less than 6 seconds (if he doesn't know that the DM will cheese in his favor). Will he calculate the odds of him returning to the Prime Material Plane within the party's lifetime, or indeed before they destroy his phylactery and take and sell his treasure and kill all his minions, and whether he knows the identities of the party, and will he have some kind of DM granted omniscience to know where they will be at a future time (high level players tend to go to very strange unpredictable places). All these are things the Demilich would have to balance in his mind before taking such a rash action as banishing himself to the Astral Plane. Maybe he might wait patiently, knowing he can always destroy the bag but also knowing that once this action is taken, it's irreversible.
Wearing my other hat as a DM, I do like to encourage out of the box thinking. Is polymorph "cheese"? I don't think so, but many BBEGs have been laid low by similar single spells or single actions that are legal, but end an encounter with a single die roll. But also just getting within 30 feet of a Demilich is itself a high risk activity. Some people might consider it cheese to stand 70 feet away (outside its range + flying speed+1/2 flying speed) and pot shot it with 100 rounds of eldrich blasts and fire bolts (and counterspell any dangerous spells). But that's a tactic that could work much more safely than charging in with a bag of holding and hoping rolls go in their favor, lol.
My Demilich if he finds himself in a bag of holding would probably know he has no good options by that point and would likely destroy the bag, effectively permanently killing the player holding the bag. But the rest of the revenge scenario seems a bit far fetched. I guess it would depend on what spells the DM gives the Lich - prior to the encounter and not retconned in. Does giving the Demilich high level wizard spells keep the CR 18 or increase the CR to around 23 or so? If it was a CR18 encounter it seems a bit odd to then change it to a CR20+ encounter mainly just to punish the players for perceived cheesing.
My biggest takeaway from this thread is just how weak Demiliches in 5e seem to be. Despite being liches who've "evolved in their pursuit of magic and have attained a grasp of the arcane beyond mortal limits", they are a whole 3 CR lower than the Liches they would have originally been, and are infinitely less versatile. A Lich's ability to cast Plane Shift would make this set-up nearly irrelevant.
If I ever include a Demilich into my campaign, it will probably be either:
(A) Ambitious (Mastermind)
Living at the heart of a vast, well populated dungeon, such that the Demilich encounter is really just the adventure epilogue; or
(B) Bored (Flavor)
The lich has satisfied its lust for power and is now merely gathering dust on a shelf somewhere because it has forgotten how to die, or
(C) Complicated (Powerful)
Deific levels of arcane understanding should essentially grant plot armor. Trapping it in a Bag of Holding may be met with the Demilich simply reappearing back in the combat environment with no apparent explanation. Maybe the first skull was just an illusion, or maybe there is a mechanism that automatically recalls it to the material plane. Either way, the Demilich represents an utterly superior intellect and many lifetimes of obsession. It is defined by contingency plans.
As written, it's such a disappointing conclusion to the ultimate pursuit of magical study.
Yeah - I agree. I think as a DM I'd prefer to just ignore Demilich CR 18 as a thing completely and replace them with a Vampire spellcaster similar 1st edition Strahd with some kind of turning protection. Then homebrew all actual Demiliches to be 20th level spellcasters and give them a higher 20+ CR.
As a player I'll see what happens, lol.
I wonder how much lower power demiliches has to do with module designers wanting to let 10th level players defeat a Dmilich because it sounds more bad*** than beating "just a lich", lol. It's kind of silly that I'd rather encounter a Demilich than a Lich any day of the week. Our last encounter a regular Lich just tore through our 10th level 5 person party like we were children.
Glad you're not the DM. What you would do sounds a kinda like cheesing the game, but against the players.
I agree though the DemiLich could damage the inside of the bag, and would also know what would happen if he did this - and he would have to choose if he wants to be banished to the Astral Plane or not.
The Demilich would also need to consider many complex variables in less than 6 seconds (if he doesn't know that the DM will cheese in his favor). Will he calculate the odds of him returning to the Prime Material Plane within the party's lifetime, or indeed before they destroy his phylactery and take and sell his treasure and kill all his minions, and whether he knows the identities of the party, and will he have some kind of DM granted omniscience to know where they will be at a future time (high level players tend to go to very strange unpredictable places). All these are things the Demilich would have to balance in his mind before taking such a rash action as banishing himself to the Astral Plane. Maybe he might wait patiently, knowing he can always destroy the bag but also knowing that once this action is taken, it's irreversible.
Wearing my other hat as a DM, I do like to encourage out of the box thinking. Is polymorph "cheese"? I don't think so, but many BBEGs have been laid low by similar single spells or single actions that are legal, but end an encounter with a single die roll. But also just getting within 30 feet of a Demilich is itself a high risk activity. Some people might consider it cheese to stand 70 feet away (outside its range + flying speed+1/2 flying speed) and pot shot it with 100 rounds of eldrich blasts and fire bolts (and counterspell any dangerous spells). But that's a tactic that could work much more safely than charging in with a bag of holding and hoping rolls go in their favor, lol.
My Demilich if he finds himself in a bag of holding would probably know he has no good options by that point and would likely destroy the bag, effectively permanently killing the player holding the bag. But the rest of the revenge scenario seems a bit far fetched. I guess it would depend on what spells the DM gives the Lich - prior to the encounter and not retconned in. Does giving the Demilich high level wizard spells keep the CR 18 or increase the CR to around 23 or so? If it was a CR18 encounter it seems a bit odd to then change it to a CR20+ encounter mainly just to punish the players for perceived cheesing.
I don't think you understand the Astral Plane very well. The plane is so full of natural portals to all sorts of planes that the Astral Plane is an often used means of interplanar travel. Just head in any direction and look out for the portal you want - it will take less than 2 days to get to one. Pretty sure the party's lifetime will extend longer than that.
A demilich is not likely to hold much treasure and being nothing more than a skull, is not going to have need of it or care. It has the rest of eternity to acquire more if needed. Also, what kind of idiot Lich leaves everything they own all in place with no protections? Yeah you'll get a piece, but that lich is going to have more secured away.
Demiliches are not forced to stay as such. If they become motivated enough (like a buncha annoying adventurers treating it like some trinket you throw into a bag) it can find a humanoid, kill it and feed the soul to its phylactery, just like a lich can, and if it does -- it becomes a full Lich again. It has seen you and that's all it takes to find somebody, if they wanted, you can do that as player with the right resources and spells, why would you think a Lich couldn't?
And yes, if you're going to try and cheese the DM, the DM is going to cheese ya right back.
'Course it would depend on that individual demilich. If I want them as the big bad evil then yeah it'll be the vengeful type. If not, it might just be bored enough to not care and let you - I mean you might take it to interesting places. You might be a weak-willed buncha peeps and maybe it could eventually sway one of you into doing evil. It might even be willing to help your halloween parties be really extra. And maybe, it could be almost like a friendly - slightly scary - mascot. And maybe one day you won't keep poor Skully in a stuffy bag and let him out to roam with you. And eventually, just maybe, he will learn about friendship and the power of good. And maybe could possibly repay that faith and trust by killing you in your sleep, devouring your soul and returning to into an evil Lich King ready to raise you as his undead thralls.
Who knows?
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From the item description: This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep.
I read this that this 2x4 are the outside dimensions, because two feet by four feet cannot be the internal dimensions, because these do not equal the stated internal volume capacity of 64 cubic feet.
I always imagined it like a "small" sack.
This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet. The bag weighs 15 pounds, regardless of its contents. Retrieving an item from the bag requires an action.
So, what exactly are the exterior dimensions of a bag of holding? Nothing I've read specifies them.
I've always imagined a bag of holding being sized like a large woman's purse. Thus not big enough to fit over a monster's head/skull/whatever.
It is certainly subject to interpretation, but the first two sentences of the description are thus:
This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.
The wording is ambiguous, but could be read that the interior of the bag is equivalent to a 4x4x4 cube, with a 2ft diameter opening at the top. (Or a cylinder with a radius of ~2.25ft)
I've always treated it like a "void" space with no dimension other than volume, but that may be wrong. However, there is no mention about a maximum length of object that can be put into the bag of holding, so it could also be that the interior dimension resembles a cube, or cylinder, but due to magic, that's ultimately irrelevant.
At the very least, the 2ft diameter opening is plenty large enough to fit the Demilich. While the graphic is of a messenger bag, it may be more appropriate to see it as a potato sack liner inside of a more fashionable container.
So, what exactly are the exterior dimensions of a bag of holding? Nothing I've read specifies them.
I've always imagined a bag of holding being sized like a large woman's purse. Thus not big enough to fit over a monster's head/skull/whatever.
It is certainly subject to interpretation, but the first two sentences of the description are thus:
This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.
The wording is ambiguous, but could be read that the interior of the bag is equivalent to a 4x4x4 cube, with a 2ft diameter opening at the top. (Or a cylinder with a radius of ~2.25ft)
I've always treated it like a "void" space with no dimension other than volume, but that may be wrong. However, there is no mention about a maximum length of object that can be put into the bag of holding, so it could also be that the interior dimension resembles a cube, or cylinder, but due to magic, that's ultimately irrelevant.
At the very least, the 2ft diameter opening is plenty large enough to fit the Demilich. While the graphic is of a messenger bag, it may be more appropriate to see it as a potato sack liner inside of a more fashionable container.
I think your 4x4x4 cube is spot on as it perfectly fits a " volume of 64 cubic feet".
However, a cylinder with a radius of ~2.25ft would be more than "4 feet deep", from a perpendicular from the face of the hole.
So what length of object could fit in a portable hole? Answers that I worked out range from just over 5ft 6in, if you're going symmetrical, to just under 6ft 5in if you're being charitable.
These results were based on calculations with considerations of: the 2ft diameter hole being positioned in the centre of one of the sides. and of: the 2ft diameter hole being positioned at one of the corners of one of the sides
Hole in the corner If the 2ft diameter hole is positioned at one of the corners of one of the sides then it could be positioned something like this: OX XX And now we start a string of simple calculations. A diagonal across one side of the cube [of a 4x4 square] = root of (4x4)+(4x4) = root of 32 = 5.65685424949 A radius of 1 ft is always 1ft while a diagonal across a 1x1 square = root of (1x1)+(1x1) = root of 2 = 1.41421356237. On our mini diagram the maximum distance from the bottom right corner of the side to the top left corner of the hole measures: 5.65685424949 - 1.41421356237 +1 = 5.24264068712 ft Then we just need to factor in the depth of the hole to find the maximum length of pointy end objects that can fit in a portable hole = root of (5.24264068712x5.24264068712)+(4x4) = root of 43.4852813742 = 6.59433706859 ft = almost 6ft 5in (0.59433706859 ft = .59433706859 x 10 / 12 in = 0.49528089049 in)
Hole in the centre If the 2ft diameter hole is positioned at the centre of one of the sides then the maths can be rejigged like this:
We still note that, a diagonal across one side of the cube [of a 4x4 square] = root of (4x4)+(4x4) = root of 32 = 5.65685424949 and that, a radius of 1 ft is always 1ft. However, with the hole in the centre of a side, we need to consider the length of a diagonal across a 2x2 square (or, at least, across 2 1x1 squares). root of (2x2)+(2x2) = root of 8 = (2x1.41421356237) = (5.65685424949/2) = 2.82842712475 On an adapted mini diagram the maximum distance from the bottom right corner of the side to the top left corner of the hole measures: 5.65685424949 - 2.82842712475 +1 = 3.82842712474 ft Then we just need to factor in the depth of the hole to find the maximum length of pointy end objects that can fit in a portable hole = root of (3.82842712474x3.82842712474)+(4x4) = root of 30.6568542494 = 5.5368632139 ft = just over 5ft 6in.
What happens if you pull a bag of holding over a hovering Demilich?
Seems like an exploit and shouldn't be able to just negate such a powerful monster so easily.
Would you let your players do it and if so would that put the Demilich out of action?
(1) There is no official mechanism for forcing another character into a Bag of Holding, so nothing happens unless the DM allows it.
(2) A Demilich has legendary resistances, so if the stars align and you get a chance to attempt this tactic, it may simply choose to beat the imposed saving throw.
(3) Personally, anything the players want to attempt should be allowed, but it will require a series of difficult checks appropriate for how well they execute their plan. Demiliches are extremely intelligent and have Truesight, so if played correctly, shouldn't allow themselves to be tricked easily.
You could force the Demilich into the bag by grappling/shoving it, which wouldn't involve any saving throws.
I guess the real question is what keeps it from getting out?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I guess tie a rope around the sack? I suppose you'd get another bag of holding for the rest of your stuff, because that one is occupied, lol - or wait till you are in an advantageous position (not in his lair, for example) before letting it out again. Or just in the next adventure open the bag and toss it into the enemy camp and run away - "surprise - angry Demilich!"
I was thinking of it as more like trying to catch anything floating / hovering in a sack. It's reasonable to think it must be "possible" to do, but the mechanics would be up to the DM it seems. I suppose the DM would have to decide if it's a save (hopefully strength? lol) or another kind of contested roll. But I was also thinking it just requires object interaction to pick up the bag, then action to try to bag it - so if the person attempting to bag it goes down, someone else can pick up the bag.
That's the amazing thing about this game - an all powerful Demilich can be captured by a lowly minion carrying the master's bag of holding ... theoretically, lol.
Wow, the moral of this story, if your future plans include becoming a demilich, is to make sure you gain the acrobatics skill along the way.
(You may need this because beholders and similar creatures rarely have the sense to fly high and out of reach).
Both the grapple and the shove can be contested with acrobatics which would, unfortunately, be represented by the base dex 20 of the demilich (rather than by its strength 1). Get an ally to be ready to close and fasten the bag and perhaps step back while facing the bag away from you. I'd rule that the demilich's truesight would give it some ability to see out of the bag and that some of its ranged effects could work out of the bag.
My understanding of the bag of holding (which could be wrong, of course) is that the bag of holding puts the contents on the astral plane, so they are no longer actually in the location on the material plane. My understanding is that the Ethereal Plane is the one that "shares space" with the Prime Material Plane.
Although, my understanding of the planes is very heavily rooted in 1st edition DMG diagrams and 3e -5e changes don't really make that much sense to me.
A bag of holding that ruptures dumps its contents into the Astral Plane. For some reason, bags of holding lack the usual language items like it have specifying that the insides are an extradimensional space - contrast with a handy haversack, which explicitly says that, meaning a haversack's insides are their own pocket dimensions (each haversack has 3 portals, each of which connects to a unique pocket dimension), It's my experience that most DMs ignore this and have the bag obey the same rules as everything else like it (including the bag of devouring, which is also explicitly extradimensional). Point is, there's no rule saying a bag of holding's innards are on the Astral Plane rather than the "usual" pocket dimension.
Because the bag of holding lacks this language, a DM is intrinsically not homebrewing if they rule the bag of holding's belly is not extraplanar at all, like GergKyae implied. It's entirely within the text of the item for the innards to remain on the Prime Material. The primary problem with this is that it lets you stuff bags of holding into each other, since you've ruled they don't violate their own ban on extradimensional spaces produced by items, and the RAI on bags of holding appears to be that they're intended not to be nestable.
We often have to consult 5 different places to get a better explanation of the rules - then we find another and that contraindicates, lol.
When I read the description of Handy Harversack you linked, it says this:
Placing the haversack inside an extradimensional space created by a bag of holding, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane.
So a bag of holding is an extradimensional space, but that description is in the Handy Harversack item's listing.
If I was the DM: you bag it, it bites the inside, it and anyone carrying the bag goes to the Astral Plane, it basically gets to murder that one character coming with it (CR 18 with an instant-death ability? Yeah, a lone PC ain't gonna do much), and then finds its way back to Material Plane where it will hatch a plan to get terrible, murderous, revenge - probably by offering secrets of lichdom so some aspiring evil mage that is more than willing to find you, dream spell you into exhaustion, then polymorph>power word kill you.
Probably better to just fight the demilich directly rather than
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything. I was just interpreting that closing the bag just simply acted in a similar way to closing a door. In this case, there could still be an edge through which an influence might propagate.
If closing the bag completely cut off the connection between the two planes then, yes, this would be the case.
Maybe I've been thinking too much about artificer infused bags of holding which might potentially have less ability to make a tight seal.
Glad you're not the DM. What you would do sounds a kinda like cheesing the game, but against the players.
I agree though the DemiLich could damage the inside of the bag, and would also know what would happen if he did this - and he would have to choose if he wants to be banished to the Astral Plane or not.
The Demilich would also need to consider many complex variables in less than 6 seconds (if he doesn't know that the DM will cheese in his favor). Will he calculate the odds of him returning to the Prime Material Plane within the party's lifetime, or indeed before they destroy his phylactery and take and sell his treasure and kill all his minions, and whether he knows the identities of the party, and will he have some kind of DM granted omniscience to know where they will be at a future time (high level players tend to go to very strange unpredictable places). All these are things the Demilich would have to balance in his mind before taking such a rash action as banishing himself to the Astral Plane. Maybe he might wait patiently, knowing he can always destroy the bag but also knowing that once this action is taken, it's irreversible.
Wearing my other hat as a DM, I do like to encourage out of the box thinking. Is polymorph "cheese"? I don't think so, but many BBEGs have been laid low by similar single spells or single actions that are legal, but end an encounter with a single die roll. But also just getting within 30 feet of a Demilich is itself a high risk activity. Some people might consider it cheese to stand 70 feet away (outside its range + flying speed+1/2 flying speed) and pot shot it with 100 rounds of eldrich blasts and fire bolts (and counterspell any dangerous spells). But that's a tactic that could work much more safely than charging in with a bag of holding and hoping rolls go in their favor, lol.
My Demilich if he finds himself in a bag of holding would probably know he has no good options by that point and would likely destroy the bag, effectively permanently killing the player holding the bag. But the rest of the revenge scenario seems a bit far fetched. I guess it would depend on what spells the DM gives the Lich - prior to the encounter and not retconned in. Does giving the Demilich high level wizard spells keep the CR 18 or increase the CR to around 23 or so? If it was a CR18 encounter it seems a bit odd to then change it to a CR20+ encounter mainly just to punish the players for perceived cheesing.
My biggest takeaway from this thread is just how weak Demiliches in 5e seem to be. Despite being liches who've "evolved in their pursuit of magic and have attained a grasp of the arcane beyond mortal limits", they are a whole 3 CR lower than the Liches they would have originally been, and are infinitely less versatile. A Lich's ability to cast Plane Shift would make this set-up nearly irrelevant.
If I ever include a Demilich into my campaign, it will probably be either:
(A) Ambitious (Mastermind)
Living at the heart of a vast, well populated dungeon, such that the Demilich encounter is really just the adventure epilogue; or
(B) Bored (Flavor)
The lich has satisfied its lust for power and is now merely gathering dust on a shelf somewhere because it has forgotten how to die, or
(C) Complicated (Powerful)
Deific levels of arcane understanding should essentially grant plot armor. Trapping it in a Bag of Holding may be met with the Demilich simply reappearing back in the combat environment with no apparent explanation. Maybe the first skull was just an illusion, or maybe there is a mechanism that automatically recalls it to the material plane. Either way, the Demilich represents an utterly superior intellect and many lifetimes of obsession. It is defined by contingency plans.
As written, it's such a disappointing conclusion to the ultimate pursuit of magical study.
Yeah - I agree. I think as a DM I'd prefer to just ignore Demilich CR 18 as a thing completely and replace them with a Vampire spellcaster similar 1st edition Strahd with some kind of turning protection. Then homebrew all actual Demiliches to be 20th level spellcasters and give them a higher 20+ CR.
As a player I'll see what happens, lol.
I wonder how much lower power demiliches has to do with module designers wanting to let 10th level players defeat a Dmilich because it sounds more bad*** than beating "just a lich", lol. It's kind of silly that I'd rather encounter a Demilich than a Lich any day of the week. Our last encounter a regular Lich just tore through our 10th level 5 person party like we were children.
I don't think you understand the Astral Plane very well. The plane is so full of natural portals to all sorts of planes that the Astral Plane is an often used means of interplanar travel. Just head in any direction and look out for the portal you want - it will take less than 2 days to get to one. Pretty sure the party's lifetime will extend longer than that.
A demilich is not likely to hold much treasure and being nothing more than a skull, is not going to have need of it or care. It has the rest of eternity to acquire more if needed. Also, what kind of idiot Lich leaves everything they own all in place with no protections? Yeah you'll get a piece, but that lich is going to have more secured away.
Demiliches are not forced to stay as such. If they become motivated enough (like a buncha annoying adventurers treating it like some trinket you throw into a bag) it can find a humanoid, kill it and feed the soul to its phylactery, just like a lich can, and if it does -- it becomes a full Lich again. It has seen you and that's all it takes to find somebody, if they wanted, you can do that as player with the right resources and spells, why would you think a Lich couldn't?
And yes, if you're going to try and cheese the DM, the DM is going to cheese ya right back.
'Course it would depend on that individual demilich. If I want them as the big bad evil then yeah it'll be the vengeful type. If not, it might just be bored enough to not care and let you - I mean you might take it to interesting places. You might be a weak-willed buncha peeps and maybe it could eventually sway one of you into doing evil. It might even be willing to help your halloween parties be really extra. And maybe, it could be almost like a friendly - slightly scary - mascot. And maybe one day you won't keep poor Skully in a stuffy bag and let him out to roam with you. And eventually, just maybe, he will learn about friendship and the power of good. And maybe could possibly repay that faith and trust by killing you in your sleep, devouring your soul and returning to into an evil Lich King ready to raise you as his undead thralls.
Who knows?
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So, what exactly are the exterior dimensions of a bag of holding? Nothing I've read specifies them.
I've always imagined a bag of holding being sized like a large woman's purse. Thus not big enough to fit over a monster's head/skull/whatever.
From the item description:
This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep.
I read this that this 2x4 are the outside dimensions, because two feet by four feet cannot be the internal dimensions, because these do not equal the stated internal volume capacity of 64 cubic feet.
I always imagined it like a "small" sack.
It is certainly subject to interpretation, but the first two sentences of the description are thus:
The wording is ambiguous, but could be read that the interior of the bag is equivalent to a 4x4x4 cube, with a 2ft diameter opening at the top. (Or a cylinder with a radius of ~2.25ft)
I've always treated it like a "void" space with no dimension other than volume, but that may be wrong. However, there is no mention about a maximum length of object that can be put into the bag of holding, so it could also be that the interior dimension resembles a cube, or cylinder, but due to magic, that's ultimately irrelevant.
At the very least, the 2ft diameter opening is plenty large enough to fit the Demilich. While the graphic is of a messenger bag, it may be more appropriate to see it as a potato sack liner inside of a more fashionable container.
I think your 4x4x4 cube is spot on as it perfectly fits a " volume of 64 cubic feet".
However, a cylinder with a radius of ~2.25ft would be more than "4 feet deep", from a perpendicular from the face of the hole.
So what length of object could fit in a portable hole?
Answers that I worked out range from just over 5ft 6in, if you're going symmetrical, to just under 6ft 5in if you're being charitable.
These results were based on calculations with considerations of:
the 2ft diameter hole being positioned in the centre of one of the sides.
and of:
the 2ft diameter hole being positioned at one of the corners of one of the sides
Hole in the corner
If the 2ft diameter hole is positioned at one of the corners of one of the sides then it could be positioned something like this:
OX
XX
And now we start a string of simple calculations.
A diagonal across one side of the cube [of a 4x4 square] = root of (4x4)+(4x4) = root of 32 = 5.65685424949
A radius of 1 ft is always 1ft while a diagonal across a 1x1 square = root of (1x1)+(1x1) = root of 2 = 1.41421356237.
On our mini diagram the maximum distance from the bottom right corner of the side to the top left corner of the hole measures:
5.65685424949 - 1.41421356237 +1 = 5.24264068712 ft
Then we just need to factor in the depth of the hole to find the maximum length of pointy end objects that can fit in a portable hole =
root of (5.24264068712x5.24264068712)+(4x4) = root of 43.4852813742 = 6.59433706859 ft = almost 6ft 5in
(0.59433706859 ft = .59433706859 x 10 / 12 in = 0.49528089049 in)
Hole in the centre
If the 2ft diameter hole is positioned at the centre of one of the sides then the maths can be rejigged like this:
We still note that, a diagonal across one side of the cube [of a 4x4 square] = root of (4x4)+(4x4) = root of 32 = 5.65685424949
and that, a radius of 1 ft is always 1ft.
However, with the hole in the centre of a side, we need to consider the length of a diagonal across a 2x2 square (or, at least, across 2 1x1 squares).
root of (2x2)+(2x2) = root of 8 = (2x1.41421356237) = (5.65685424949/2) = 2.82842712475
On an adapted mini diagram the maximum distance from the bottom right corner of the side to the top left corner of the hole measures:
5.65685424949 - 2.82842712475 +1 = 3.82842712474 ft
Then we just need to factor in the depth of the hole to find the maximum length of pointy end objects that can fit in a portable hole =
root of (3.82842712474x3.82842712474)+(4x4) = root of 30.6568542494 = 5.5368632139 ft = just over 5ft 6in.
That's the best I managed.