I'm working with one of my players on making clever use of Silent Image and they suggested using it to replicate something like Fog or Darkness (magical). Now, Silent Image states " ... Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." But if you have created something like fog or darkness where it's obviously well known and expected that things would pass through it (objects, creatures, etc.), how does that work?
For my last game, we worked with it where it functionally *was* a Fog Cloud or Magical Darkness spell but that was very obviously a bit too much, particularly as we worked with it where the player was able through time and role-playing to make the other players aware of the illusion and thus automatically succeed on the adjudicated saving throw. For everyone else, there was an initial saving throw (Intelligence) and then the option of using an action to try confirm the reality/unreality of the effect.
Edit: has been efficiently answered on D&D Beyond. I'm allowing it but the first physical interaction will dissolve the illusion for anyone that sees the interaction. Also, you can "train" your party to recognize the fact you're casting an illusion, but that's more a house rule.
I'm working with one of my players on making clever use of Silent Image and they suggested using it to replicate something like Fog or Darkness (magical). Now, Silent Image states " ... Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." But if you have created something like fog or darkness where it's obviously well known and expected that things would pass through it (objects, creatures, etc.), how does that work?
Real fog is cool to the touch and leaves moisture on you.
Depending on how you rule that visual illusions interact with light, there's a few ways a fake dome of Darkness could fail to hold up to physical inspection as well. If you rule that illusions don't block light (e.g. they don't leave a shadow and light sources can shine through illusions despite the fact that they block your vision) then an illusory dome wouldn't prevent you from feeling the radiant heat from sunlight or a torch if you stick your hand inside.
Either way you handle the issue of light, if you rule that the illusion is a hollow shell rather than a solid hemisphere, stepping inside of it would be another way it fails to hold up to physical inspection. If you bring a light source in, you'll be able to see inside the dome; and if you rule light shines through illusions, you'd be able to see inside with or without a light source.
There's already a much bigger problem with this setup even before anyone attempts to interact with the illusion though: they're very obviously the wrong size. Like, by an order of magnitude. Fog Cloud has a 20 foot radius; that's 40 feet in diameter. Darkness has a 15 foot radius. The illusion that Minor Illusion creates has to fit in a 15 foot cube.
On top of that, in a dungeon setting it's very likely spellcasters will have be using the Light cantrip out of convenience. The fact that they can approach the illusion without their cantrip ending is another dead giveaway they're not dealing with Darkness.
It depends honestly if you create it on top of creatures they would most likely know it was an illusion. If it was created some distance away as in used to block/obscure vision then until they physically interact with it; it would function just like fog/darkness with no save.
I am of the opinion (and I really do think of it as an opinion) that a spell shouldn't duplicate the effect of another spell without it being obvious that it does -- especially when the spell doing the duplicating is lower in level than the spell it copies. For that reason, I think that illusion spells should (possibly) give total or partial cover, but not the obscurement/light interactions that darkness and fog cloud provide. The problem with the spell is that it never clarifies what it means by "visual phenomenon," or how that is to be mechanically interpreted.
I mean have you considered that it is duplicating the spell with the additional weaknesses presented by it being an illusion? Why nerf illusions when their entire purpose is to take something and make it seem like something else? Illusion is commonly used to disguise something nonthreatening as something dangerous for intimidation. As stated the spell already has been reduced to a smaller area of effect as well as taking an entire action to move it if so desired by the caster. If we are discussing personal opinion I feel that any DM whining about this usage is not properly utilizing their entire toolkit. Blindsight, Tremorsense, Truesight. All ignore the illusion immediately. If its a fog cloud a wind based spell would show no interaction and thus remove the illusion. I'm just saying don't get mad at players being creative. Use creativity against them instead.
I mean have you considered that it is duplicating the spell with the additional weaknesses presented by it being an illusion? Why nerf illusions when their entire purpose is to take something and make it seem like something else? Illusion is commonly used to disguise something nonthreatening as something dangerous for intimidation. As stated the spell already has been reduced to a smaller area of effect as well as taking an entire action to move it if so desired by the caster. If we are discussing personal opinion I feel that any DM whining about this usage is not properly utilizing their entire toolkit. Blindsight, Tremorsense, Truesight. All ignore the illusion immediately. If its a fog cloud a wind based spell would show no interaction and thus remove the illusion. I'm just saying don't get mad at players being creative. Use creativity against them instead.
I'm not sure what nerf you're referring to, and this thread is what, 1.5 years old? What interaction with illusions are you concerned about?
Silent Image illusions can be opaque, so you can't see through them, but they can't actually block light, so a light source on one side of the illusion can illuminate space on the other side of it. If someone is inside the illusion (like with illusory fog) they automatically perceive it as such and can see through it (it essentially becomes translucent).
The big reason I said what I did before is that illusion is all flavor, and I vehemently dislike trying to confuse other people at the table about what is going on. If I expect my DM and other players to understand what I'm doing is legal, then they have to be able to figure out what is going on, even if their characters cannot. Illusions spells should interact with reality identically, whether they're illusions of fog, darkness, creatures, walls, foliage, etc.
I'm working with one of my players on making clever use of Silent Image and they suggested using it to replicate something like Fog or Darkness (magical). Now, Silent Image states " ... Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." But if you have created something like fog or darkness where it's obviously well known and expected that things would pass through it (objects, creatures, etc.), how does that work?
It consider Silent Image of fog or darkness to be visual impairment harder to descern through contact and would consider creatures to be heavily obscured by it until discerned with a successful check as an action or when passing through it, rather than auto discern it for exemple
Illusions are one on the hardest game effects for a DM to adjudicate.
Illusions create an appearance of something else.
"SILENT IMAGE 1st-level illusion Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 feet Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece) Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual; it isn't accompanied by sound, smell, or other sensory effects. You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the image so that it appears to be walking.
Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image."
Properties of this illusion:
- create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube
- You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image
Reading this you create an image of an object, creature or "other visible phenomenon" AND you can have that image move in a realistic way. Unless an observer succeeds on an investigation check or physically interacts with the illusion, they continue to believe that the illusion IS real - that it IS the creature, object or phenomenon being represented.
Questions:
- Does an illusion block light? Yes. until a creature perceives that an illusion is not real it MUST appear to block light. If it did not do this then illusionary images would be impossible - every illusion would automatically be semi-transparent since you could always see the objects on the other side of it. The ONLY way for an image to appear real is IF it obscures the objects behind it. Since these are observed due to light reflected off the objects (that is the definition of vision) - the illusion MUST block light if it looks real (it must obscure the objects behind it).
- is an illusion physical or does it only affect the mind of the observer? It could be either but the easiest reason for illusions functioning the way they do is because they are magical. They break the rules of physics. Once a creature has realized that an image is an illusion they can see through it but other creatures that have NOT succeeded on the investigation check can not see through it. So from the perspective of the observer of the illusion - it will block light until they manage to realize that it is an illusion and the magic no longer fully affects them. Whether this effect occurs because the spell selectively blocks light or because the spell affects the mind of the observer so that they don't perceive the light is up to how the DM wants to interpret it but it doesn't affect what the spell does.
- could you use silent illusion to create an image of a fog cloud? Yes. The illusion is at most a 15' cube with this spell. In addition, something physically interacting with the illusion may reveal that it is an illusion. In the case of a fog cloud illusion, it would not have the same behaviour as a natural fog cloud and if something entered it that discrepancy could be noted breaking the illusion.
- can an illusion create an apparently darkened area? Yes. The same reasoning as above applies. Creating an illusion of a solid black block is certainly possible and to all intents and purposes it will look like darkness from the outside. As soon as someone steps inside it, they will automatically see out and know it is an illusion. Observing something move into the area of darkness might also break the illusion since it is only an illusion of a large dark 15' block.
Until these illusions end, either of them would block line of sight through them (either fog or a giant block of darkness - which could be solid black obsidian for all you know or an intense region of solid shadow).
However, these illusions are both substantially smaller than the fog cloud spell (20' radius) or the darkness spell (15' radius and can move) and physical interaction with these illusions will cause them to become ineffective. Silent Image may be able to create some visual effects that look somewhat like fog cloud or darkness but they are far more limited since running into them to try to obtain advantage on a target that still believes the illusion stands a very good chance of disrupting the belief in the illusion.
tl;dr
Silent Image and other illusions block light since they can't function otherwise. Silent Image can be used to replicate some of the effects of fog cloud or darkness but it is smaller and interaction with the illusion will likely make it ineffective so there is no reason to prevent Silent Image from creating these sorts of effects.
I mean have you considered that it is duplicating the spell with the additional weaknesses presented by it being an illusion? Why nerf illusions when their entire purpose is to take something and make it seem like something else? Illusion is commonly used to disguise something nonthreatening as something dangerous for intimidation. As stated the spell already has been reduced to a smaller area of effect as well as taking an entire action to move it if so desired by the caster. If we are discussing personal opinion I feel that any DM whining about this usage is not properly utilizing their entire toolkit. Blindsight, Tremorsense, Truesight. All ignore the illusion immediately. If its a fog cloud a wind based spell would show no interaction and thus remove the illusion. I'm just saying don't get mad at players being creative. Use creativity against them instead.
I'm not sure what nerf you're referring to, and this thread is what, 1.5 years old? What interaction with illusions are you concerned about?
Silent Image illusions can be opaque, so you can't see through them, but they can't actually block light, so a light source on one side of the illusion can illuminate space on the other side of it. If someone is inside the illusion (like with illusory fog) they automatically perceive it as such and can see through it (it essentially becomes translucent).
I just wanted to point out that if you can't see through them then they ARE actually blocking light. (Unless everyone sees through some magical sense in D&D and vision means something else entirely). The only reason people see anything is because their eyes collect light from the environment. There is no difference between the light that comes from a lamp and that reflecting from the objects around the lamp except the frequency and intensity of the light being observed. If eyes in D&D work similarly to eyes in the real world then if you can't see through an illusion it must block all light including light sources.
I mean have you considered that it is duplicating the spell with the additional weaknesses presented by it being an illusion? Why nerf illusions when their entire purpose is to take something and make it seem like something else? Illusion is commonly used to disguise something nonthreatening as something dangerous for intimidation. As stated the spell already has been reduced to a smaller area of effect as well as taking an entire action to move it if so desired by the caster. If we are discussing personal opinion I feel that any DM whining about this usage is not properly utilizing their entire toolkit. Blindsight, Tremorsense, Truesight. All ignore the illusion immediately. If its a fog cloud a wind based spell would show no interaction and thus remove the illusion. I'm just saying don't get mad at players being creative. Use creativity against them instead.
I'm not sure what nerf you're referring to, and this thread is what, 1.5 years old? What interaction with illusions are you concerned about?
Silent Image illusions can be opaque, so you can't see through them, but they can't actually block light, so a light source on one side of the illusion can illuminate space on the other side of it. If someone is inside the illusion (like with illusory fog) they automatically perceive it as such and can see through it (it essentially becomes translucent).
I just wanted to point out that if you can't see through them then they ARE actually blocking light. (Unless everyone sees through some magical sense in D&D and vision means something else entirely). The only reason people see anything is because their eyes collect light from the environment. There is no difference between the light that comes from a lamp and that reflecting from the objects around the lamp except the frequency and intensity of the light being observed. If eyes in D&D work similarly to eyes in the real world then if you can't see through an illusion it must block all light including light sources.
So, the part that is messing you up is the magic part. Illusions are magical and don't behave like real world physics would have you expect they do. Why? Because magic.
The light passes through illusions, as if they're not there, because they're not actually there.
But what you see is magically altered. The magic is screwing with your perception. So while the light travels through and hits your eyeballs, you don't see what is actually beaming into your orbital sockets you instead see what the spell wants you to see.
Again, because magic.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I'm working with one of my players on making clever use of Silent Image and they suggested using it to replicate something like Fog or Darkness (magical). Now, Silent Image states " ... Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." But if you have created something like fog or darkness where it's obviously well known and expected that things would pass through it (objects, creatures, etc.), how does that work?
For my last game, we worked with it where it functionally *was* a Fog Cloud or Magical Darkness spell but that was very obviously a bit too much, particularly as we worked with it where the player was able through time and role-playing to make the other players aware of the illusion and thus automatically succeed on the adjudicated saving throw. For everyone else, there was an initial saving throw (Intelligence) and then the option of using an action to try confirm the reality/unreality of the effect.
Edit: has been efficiently answered on D&D Beyond. I'm allowing it but the first physical interaction will dissolve the illusion for anyone that sees the interaction. Also, you can "train" your party to recognize the fact you're casting an illusion, but that's more a house rule.
Real fog is cool to the touch and leaves moisture on you.
Depending on how you rule that visual illusions interact with light, there's a few ways a fake dome of Darkness could fail to hold up to physical inspection as well. If you rule that illusions don't block light (e.g. they don't leave a shadow and light sources can shine through illusions despite the fact that they block your vision) then an illusory dome wouldn't prevent you from feeling the radiant heat from sunlight or a torch if you stick your hand inside.
Either way you handle the issue of light, if you rule that the illusion is a hollow shell rather than a solid hemisphere, stepping inside of it would be another way it fails to hold up to physical inspection. If you bring a light source in, you'll be able to see inside the dome; and if you rule light shines through illusions, you'd be able to see inside with or without a light source.
There's already a much bigger problem with this setup even before anyone attempts to interact with the illusion though: they're very obviously the wrong size. Like, by an order of magnitude. Fog Cloud has a 20 foot radius; that's 40 feet in diameter. Darkness has a 15 foot radius. The illusion that Minor Illusion creates has to fit in a 15 foot cube.
On top of that, in a dungeon setting it's very likely spellcasters will have be using the Light cantrip out of convenience. The fact that they can approach the illusion without their cantrip ending is another dead giveaway they're not dealing with Darkness.
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It depends honestly if you create it on top of creatures they would most likely know it was an illusion. If it was created some distance away as in used to block/obscure vision then until they physically interact with it; it would function just like fog/darkness with no save.
I am of the opinion (and I really do think of it as an opinion) that a spell shouldn't duplicate the effect of another spell without it being obvious that it does -- especially when the spell doing the duplicating is lower in level than the spell it copies. For that reason, I think that illusion spells should (possibly) give total or partial cover, but not the obscurement/light interactions that darkness and fog cloud provide. The problem with the spell is that it never clarifies what it means by "visual phenomenon," or how that is to be mechanically interpreted.
I mean have you considered that it is duplicating the spell with the additional weaknesses presented by it being an illusion? Why nerf illusions when their entire purpose is to take something and make it seem like something else? Illusion is commonly used to disguise something nonthreatening as something dangerous for intimidation. As stated the spell already has been reduced to a smaller area of effect as well as taking an entire action to move it if so desired by the caster. If we are discussing personal opinion I feel that any DM whining about this usage is not properly utilizing their entire toolkit. Blindsight, Tremorsense, Truesight. All ignore the illusion immediately. If its a fog cloud a wind based spell would show no interaction and thus remove the illusion. I'm just saying don't get mad at players being creative. Use creativity against them instead.
I'm not sure what nerf you're referring to, and this thread is what, 1.5 years old? What interaction with illusions are you concerned about?
Silent Image illusions can be opaque, so you can't see through them, but they can't actually block light, so a light source on one side of the illusion can illuminate space on the other side of it. If someone is inside the illusion (like with illusory fog) they automatically perceive it as such and can see through it (it essentially becomes translucent).
The big reason I said what I did before is that illusion is all flavor, and I vehemently dislike trying to confuse other people at the table about what is going on. If I expect my DM and other players to understand what I'm doing is legal, then they have to be able to figure out what is going on, even if their characters cannot. Illusions spells should interact with reality identically, whether they're illusions of fog, darkness, creatures, walls, foliage, etc.
It consider Silent Image of fog or darkness to be visual impairment harder to descern through contact and would consider creatures to be heavily obscured by it until discerned with a successful check as an action or when passing through it, rather than auto discern it for exemple
Illusions are one on the hardest game effects for a DM to adjudicate.
Illusions create an appearance of something else.
"SILENT IMAGE
1st-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a bit of fleece)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual; it isn't accompanied by sound, smell, or other sensory effects. You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image. For example, if you create an image of a creature and move it, you can alter the
image so that it appears to be walking.
Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image."
Properties of this illusion:
- create the image of an object, a creature, or some other visible phenomenon that is no larger than a 15-foot cube
- You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image
Reading this you create an image of an object, creature or "other visible phenomenon" AND you can have that image move in a realistic way. Unless an observer succeeds on an investigation check or physically interacts with the illusion, they continue to believe that the illusion IS real - that it IS the creature, object or phenomenon being represented.
Questions:
- Does an illusion block light? Yes. until a creature perceives that an illusion is not real it MUST appear to block light. If it did not do this then illusionary images would be impossible - every illusion would automatically be semi-transparent since you could always see the objects on the other side of it. The ONLY way for an image to appear real is IF it obscures the objects behind it. Since these are observed due to light reflected off the objects (that is the definition of vision) - the illusion MUST block light if it looks real (it must obscure the objects behind it).
- is an illusion physical or does it only affect the mind of the observer? It could be either but the easiest reason for illusions functioning the way they do is because they are magical. They break the rules of physics. Once a creature has realized that an image is an illusion they can see through it but other creatures that have NOT succeeded on the investigation check can not see through it. So from the perspective of the observer of the illusion - it will block light until they manage to realize that it is an illusion and the magic no longer fully affects them. Whether this effect occurs because the spell selectively blocks light or because the spell affects the mind of the observer so that they don't perceive the light is up to how the DM wants to interpret it but it doesn't affect what the spell does.
- could you use silent illusion to create an image of a fog cloud? Yes. The illusion is at most a 15' cube with this spell. In addition, something physically interacting with the illusion may reveal that it is an illusion. In the case of a fog cloud illusion, it would not have the same behaviour as a natural fog cloud and if something entered it that discrepancy could be noted breaking the illusion.
- can an illusion create an apparently darkened area? Yes. The same reasoning as above applies. Creating an illusion of a solid black block is certainly possible and to all intents and purposes it will look like darkness from the outside. As soon as someone steps inside it, they will automatically see out and know it is an illusion. Observing something move into the area of darkness might also break the illusion since it is only an illusion of a large dark 15' block.
Until these illusions end, either of them would block line of sight through them (either fog or a giant block of darkness - which could be solid black obsidian for all you know or an intense region of solid shadow).
However, these illusions are both substantially smaller than the fog cloud spell (20' radius) or the darkness spell (15' radius and can move) and physical interaction with these illusions will cause them to become ineffective. Silent Image may be able to create some visual effects that look somewhat like fog cloud or darkness but they are far more limited since running into them to try to obtain advantage on a target that still believes the illusion stands a very good chance of disrupting the belief in the illusion.
tl;dr
Silent Image and other illusions block light since they can't function otherwise. Silent Image can be used to replicate some of the effects of fog cloud or darkness but it is smaller and interaction with the illusion will likely make it ineffective so there is no reason to prevent Silent Image from creating these sorts of effects.
I just wanted to point out that if you can't see through them then they ARE actually blocking light. (Unless everyone sees through some magical sense in D&D and vision means something else entirely). The only reason people see anything is because their eyes collect light from the environment. There is no difference between the light that comes from a lamp and that reflecting from the objects around the lamp except the frequency and intensity of the light being observed. If eyes in D&D work similarly to eyes in the real world then if you can't see through an illusion it must block all light including light sources.
So, the part that is messing you up is the magic part. Illusions are magical and don't behave like real world physics would have you expect they do. Why? Because magic.
The light passes through illusions, as if they're not there, because they're not actually there.
But what you see is magically altered. The magic is screwing with your perception. So while the light travels through and hits your eyeballs, you don't see what is actually beaming into your orbital sockets you instead see what the spell wants you to see.
Again, because magic.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.