In chapter 10 of the PHB (Link) it says the following about casting spells as a bonus action: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Now, I'm well aware that means that, for example, if l cast healing word, l can't then cast fireball on the same turn, but could cast fire bolt as my action.
My Question is specifically regarding the "Another" part of the above Quote. "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn".
As l stated, l know that you can't cast a bonus action spell then cast a action spell, but what would happen if a sorcerer, say, cast haste, then wanted to quicken a fireball?
The way l see it, the wording has 2 interpretations.
1: No other spell can be cast on a turn a bonus action spell is cast, and by casting another spell a bonus action spell can not be cast.
2: Any spell cast after a bonus action spell must be a cantrip, but a spell cast before the bonus action spell is fair game.
I've created a poll to see what Y'all think. I look forward to seeing the replys and poll results.
Edit: I figured it'd be #1, l just wanted to be sure.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
Public Mod Note(Halfwing): As this is directly relevant to the thread topic — clarifying existing game logic and its application to the action order ruling requested — nothing is being derailed.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
If you would like to debate my post please create a new thread to do so and not derail this poll. Thanks!
Public Mod Note
(Halfwing):
As this is directly relevant to the thread topic — clarifying existing game logic and its application to the action order ruling requested — nothing is being derailed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
If you would like to debate my post please create a new thread to do so and not derail this poll. Thanks!
This seems like an odd response. You put it out there that maybe it could be option 2. DxJxC was responding how they don’t think your logic was correct, and that was it. It did not become a 5 page thread debating your post. Just a one reply response. No need to reply to this, unless you feel it necessary, so we can keep on point Although the question has been asked and answered
To the OP, as others have said, the order does not matter.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
If you would like to debate my post please create a new thread to do so and not derail this poll. Thanks!
I take that to mean you have nothing to add in regards to bonus action casting (the subject of this thread) and only disagree with the shield master feat's logic that you brought up and used yourself? Otherwise, I see no reason to create a second thread about bonus action casting...
Personally, I'd prefer to see aomething from Wizards to actually make perfectly clear what they mean/intend.
During a turn, a player can cast ONE leveled spell as an Action OR Bonus Action. Any other spells cast using either Bonus Action or Action must be a cantrip.
Something of that form should end a LOT of arguing. It would eliminate the Fighter from doing 2 leveled spells in a turn using Action Surge, but otherwise, seems to state what they "intended" with sketchy wording already.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Personally, I'd prefer to see aomething from Wizards to actually make perfectly clear what they mean/intend.
During a turn, a player can cast ONE leveled spell as an Action OR Bonus Action. Any other spells cast using either Bonus Action or Action must be a cantrip.
Something of that form should end a LOT of arguing. It would eliminate the Fighter from doing 2 leveled spells in a turn using Action Surge, but otherwise, seems to state what they "intended" with sketchy wording already.
Sure, the wording could use some clarification since so many of these threads show up.
2 leveled spells with action surge is working as intended. The only time there is a restriction is if you plan on casting a bonus action spell (including cantrip) then your action can only be a 1 Action cantrip.
Personally, I'd prefer to see aomething from Wizards to actually make perfectly clear what they mean/intend.
During a turn, a player can cast ONE leveled spell as an Action OR Bonus Action. Any other spells cast using either Bonus Action or Action must be a cantrip.
Something of that form should end a LOT of arguing. It would eliminate the Fighter from doing 2 leveled spells in a turn using Action Surge, but otherwise, seems to state what they "intended" with sketchy wording already.
There already are a couple entries in sage advice to clear it up. Casting 2 leveled spells with action surge is intended, so your proposed wording isn't RAI.
If I were to write this rule myself to fit RAI it'd be "On the turn in which you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can not cast any other spells except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
If you would like to debate my post please create a new thread to do so and not derail this poll. Thanks!
I take that to mean you have nothing to add in regards to bonus action casting (the subject of this thread) and only disagree with the shield master feat's logic that you brought up and used yourself? Otherwise, I see no reason to create a second thread about bonus action casting...
Certainly, as it pertains to this thread, shield master adds only an example of how a differently worded rule has different function, since that rule doesn't share a similar construction to the one this thread is about.
Note: this isn't necessarily a direct reply to DJC, I've just included the quotes for context.
If I were to write this rule myself to fit RAI it'd be "On the turn in which you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can not cast any other spells except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Isn't that basically what it already says?
You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
I'm not sure what can really be improved in the wording; the problem is that people are trying to create a timing exploit based on absolutely no wording to support it. The wording is unambiguous as it doesn't matter when you cast the spell (other than same turn). If you already cast a levelled action spell then you've broken the condition in advance so can't cast the bonus action spell, meanwhile casting the bonus action spell applies the condition to the rest of your turn (so you can't cast a levelled action spell after it).
They could rephrase it a lot more verbosely, for example "If you cast a levelled bonus action spell you may only cast a cantrip as an action, and if you cast a levelled spell as an action you may not cast a levelled bonus action spell" or something like that, but it's way wordier and harder to parse.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
In chapter 10 of the PHB (Link) it says the following about casting spells as a bonus action: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Now, I'm well aware that means that, for example, if l cast healing word, l can't then cast fireball on the same turn, but could cast fire bolt as my action.
My Question is specifically regarding the "Another" part of the above Quote. "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn".
As l stated, l know that you can't cast a bonus action spell then cast a action spell, but what would happen if a sorcerer, say, cast haste, then wanted to quicken a fireball?
The way l see it, the wording has 2 interpretations.
1: No other spell can be cast on a turn a bonus action spell is cast, and by casting another spell a bonus action spell can not be cast.
2: Any spell cast after a bonus action spell must be a cantrip, but a spell cast before the bonus action spell is fair game.
I've created a poll to see what Y'all think. I look forward to seeing the replys and poll results.
Both of these are incorrect. You posted the correct version.
Bonus Action Spell: If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
If I were to write this rule myself to fit RAI it'd be "On the turn in which you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can not cast any other spells except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Isn't that basically what it already says?
You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
I'm not sure what can really be improved in the wording; the problem is that people are trying to create a timing exploit based on absolutely no wording to support it. The wording is unambiguous as it doesn't matter when you cast the spell (other than same turn). If you already cast a levelled action spell then you've broken the condition in advance so can't cast the bonus action spell, meanwhile casting the bonus action spell applies the condition to the rest of your turn (so you can't cast a levelled action spell after it).
The problem with "another" is that most normal uses of it implies a sequentiality, situations where "one more" could just as well be used. And if you read the sentence from that POW then the timing matters a great deal. If they instead had used "any other" as DJX suggested then it would have been clear that the timing doesn't matter.
Of course both the update in TcoE and the SAC makes it clear what they intended but if they ever re-write the PHB I'd suggest changing it to "any other".
The problem with "another" is that most normal uses of it implies a sequentiality, situations where "one more" could just as well be used. And if you read the sentence from that POW then the timing matters a great deal. If they instead had used "any other" as DJX suggested then it would have been clear that the timing doesn't matter.
Of course both the update in TcoE and the SAC makes it clear what they intended but if they ever re-write the PHB I'd suggest changing it to "any other".
Certainly "another" is used in sequential constructions, but that really a product of the specifics of those constructions, rather than the basic or required meaning of the word itself.
If I were to write this rule myself to fit RAI it'd be "On the turn in which you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can not cast any other spells except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Isn't that basically what it already says?
You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
I'm not sure what can really be improved in the wording; the problem is that people are trying to create a timing exploit based on absolutely no wording to support it. The wording is unambiguous as it doesn't matter when you cast the spell (other than same turn). If you already cast a levelled action spell then you've broken the condition in advance so can't cast the bonus action spell, meanwhile casting the bonus action spell applies the condition to the rest of your turn (so you can't cast a levelled action spell after it).
The problem with "another" is that most normal uses of it implies a sequentiality, situations where "one more" could just as well be used. And if you read the sentence from that POW then the timing matters a great deal. If they instead had used "any other" as DJX suggested then it would have been clear that the timing doesn't matter.
Of course both the update in TcoE and the SAC makes it clear what they intended but if they ever re-write the PHB I'd suggest changing it to "any other".
Basically this. BTW, I did write my version off just knowing the RAI and didn't check the RAW until after. They are pretty much the same and "any other" is about the only change that could make it clearer.
By RAW, you determine the order and it DOES matter quite often. It's not just things like the BA spell rule, often your Bonus Action will affect your next action. For example, if you cast Hunter's Mark, then attack, you do more damage than if you do it the other way around.
That said, the Bonus action spell rule is quite clearly option 1, you can not change the order to get more than 1 leveled spell per round via a bonus action.
Note, you can still cast more than one leveled spell using several other methods, including but not limited to:
Combing a quicked spell with activating a magic item such as a wand or ring.
Using Action Surge
Using Thieves Reflexes
Using AoOs (one before and one after your action, then again after another action ifusing Thieves Reflexes)
In chapter 10 of the PHB (Link) it says the following about casting spells as a bonus action: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Now, I'm well aware that means that, for example, if l cast healing word, l can't then cast fireball on the same turn, but could cast fire bolt as my action.
My Question is specifically regarding the "Another" part of the above Quote. "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn".
As l stated, l know that you can't cast a bonus action spell then cast a action spell, but what would happen if a sorcerer, say, cast haste, then wanted to quicken a fireball?
The way l see it, the wording has 2 interpretations.
1: No other spell can be cast on a turn a bonus action spell is cast, and by casting another spell a bonus action spell can not be cast.
2: Any spell cast after a bonus action spell must be a cantrip, but a spell cast before the bonus action spell is fair game.
I've created a poll to see what Y'all think. I look forward to seeing the replys and poll results.
Edit: I figured it'd be #1, l just wanted to be sure.
Once you cast a non-cantrip spell with your Action you can no longer cast a spell with your Bonus Action for that turn be it cantrip or leveled spell.
Order does not matter. No terminology in the rule even references order.
My original reading would be option 1. However, based on how they rule Shield Master shoves it would seem option 2 would follow their latest rules logic more consistently.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Shield master is a requirement that must be met. Bonus action spells is a restriction that must be followed. "If A, then B" vs. "to B, you can't A."
If shield master had been worded "You can't take a different action besides the attack action this turn," then they would be using the same logic.
If you would like to debate my post please create a new thread to do so and not derail this poll. Thanks!
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This seems like an odd response. You put it out there that maybe it could be option 2. DxJxC was responding how they don’t think your logic was correct, and that was it. It did not become a 5 page thread debating your post. Just a one reply response. No need to reply to this, unless you feel it necessary, so we can keep on point Although the question has been asked and answered
To the OP, as others have said, the order does not matter.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I believe the old wording allowed you to do it if you sequenced it correctly. Then they updated the wording so that order doesn't matter.
I take that to mean you have nothing to add in regards to bonus action casting (the subject of this thread) and only disagree with the shield master feat's logic that you brought up and used yourself? Otherwise, I see no reason to create a second thread about bonus action casting...
Personally, I'd prefer to see aomething from Wizards to actually make perfectly clear what they mean/intend.
During a turn, a player can cast ONE leveled spell as an Action OR Bonus Action. Any other spells cast using either Bonus Action or Action must be a cantrip.
Something of that form should end a LOT of arguing. It would eliminate the Fighter from doing 2 leveled spells in a turn using Action Surge, but otherwise, seems to state what they "intended" with sketchy wording already.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Sure, the wording could use some clarification since so many of these threads show up.
2 leveled spells with action surge is working as intended. The only time there is a restriction is if you plan on casting a bonus action spell (including cantrip) then your action can only be a 1 Action cantrip.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
There already are a couple entries in sage advice to clear it up. Casting 2 leveled spells with action surge is intended, so your proposed wording isn't RAI.
If I were to write this rule myself to fit RAI it'd be "On the turn in which you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can not cast any other spells except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Certainly, as it pertains to this thread, shield master adds only an example of how a differently worded rule has different function, since that rule doesn't share a similar construction to the one this thread is about.
Note: this isn't necessarily a direct reply to DJC, I've just included the quotes for context.
Isn't that basically what it already says?
I'm not sure what can really be improved in the wording; the problem is that people are trying to create a timing exploit based on absolutely no wording to support it. The wording is unambiguous as it doesn't matter when you cast the spell (other than same turn). If you already cast a levelled action spell then you've broken the condition in advance so can't cast the bonus action spell, meanwhile casting the bonus action spell applies the condition to the rest of your turn (so you can't cast a levelled action spell after it).
They could rephrase it a lot more verbosely, for example "If you cast a levelled bonus action spell you may only cast a cantrip as an action, and if you cast a levelled spell as an action you may not cast a levelled bonus action spell" or something like that, but it's way wordier and harder to parse.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Both of these are incorrect. You posted the correct version.
Option 1 was further clarified in TCoE
The problem with "another" is that most normal uses of it implies a sequentiality, situations where "one more" could just as well be used. And if you read the sentence from that POW then the timing matters a great deal. If they instead had used "any other" as DJX suggested then it would have been clear that the timing doesn't matter.
Of course both the update in TcoE and the SAC makes it clear what they intended but if they ever re-write the PHB I'd suggest changing it to "any other".
Certainly "another" is used in sequential constructions, but that really a product of the specifics of those constructions, rather than the basic or required meaning of the word itself.
Basically this. BTW, I did write my version off just knowing the RAI and didn't check the RAW until after. They are pretty much the same and "any other" is about the only change that could make it clearer.
By RAW, you determine the order and it DOES matter quite often. It's not just things like the BA spell rule, often your Bonus Action will affect your next action. For example, if you cast Hunter's Mark, then attack, you do more damage than if you do it the other way around.
That said, the Bonus action spell rule is quite clearly option 1, you can not change the order to get more than 1 leveled spell per round via a bonus action.
Note, you can still cast more than one leveled spell using several other methods, including but not limited to: