I am looking for some way to give a group of NPC vampires, a nest if you will, some class levels to make them a little different from one another but have not been able to find any templates for adjusting the CRs for the end result. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Rather than give each of them every feature of the class you want them to feel like, which can load up the stat-block with text of features that you end up not even engaging while using the NPC, do as the monster manual and other official sources do and add a few important features - like the sidebar in the vampire description does for "vampire warrior" and "vampire spellcaster".
As for adjusting CR after you've made changes, there is no hard-fast rule that is accurate because the impact of whatever new features you add depends on what the monster in question already had available (i.e. casting spells doesn't up the CR until the damage/defense capability of those spells is superior to the monster using it's normally available actions, while giving a spellcasting monster extra melee attacks won't change their CR if the spells still do better damage, and so on) - you have to re-calculate the CR of the creature following the guidance in the DMG.
Rather than give each of them every feature of the class you want them to feel like, which can load up the stat-block with text of features that you end up not even engaging while using the NPC, do as the monster manual and other official sources do and add a few important features - like the sidebar in the vampire description does for "vampire warrior" and "vampire spellcaster".
As for adjusting CR after you've made changes, there is no hard-fast rule that is accurate because the impact of whatever new features you add depends on what the monster in question already had available (i.e. casting spells doesn't up the CR until the damage/defense capability of those spells is superior to the monster using it's normally available actions, while giving a spellcasting monster extra melee attacks won't change their CR if the spells still do better damage, and so on) - you have to re-calculate the CR of the creature following the guidance in the DMG.
Thanks for the insight. I just got back into D&D after falling out at 3.5 so I am trying to figure out the new stuff.
Okay, so looking at the DMG I think I can work this out..
So one of the Vampires is a half-orc wielding a greatxe +2 so giving the standard vamp stats it gives him a melee attack but it does not move him up the CR rankings because the abilities it currently has melee damage in the 81 - 86 range, his current Max damage is 24 with multi-attack and all applicable bonuses. He wears Boots of Elvenkind but it does not give him more bonuses than his current abilities. His leather armor does not increase his natural AC because of the natural resistances.
Even with giving him some attributes like "Aggressive", "Brute", or "Rampage" would not increase the damage to the next CR level which keeps it at the base CR 13... Does this all sound correct?
The default vampire in the monster manual has a CR, as calculated by the DMG guidelines of 14 - adjusted down to 13 because it's not quite as tough as its numbers suggest it is.
That CR comes from a heaping-helping of defensive capabilities. It's defensive CR is calculated as it's 144 HP, plus 90 effective HP for it's legendary resistance uses, plus 60 effective HP for it's regeneration, x1.25 for having multiple resistances and an expected CR in the 11-16 range, giving a total effective HP of 367.5. We reference the table in the DMG for that HP value and find it is on the CR 20 row. We then check the vampire's 16 AC against AC listed on that row of the table, which is 19, and the defensive CR is adjusted down to 19 because of the more than 2 point difference.
On the offensive side of the calculations, we add together the most damaging attack option (one unarmed attack and a bite), plus the most damaging usage of the available legendary actions (another unarmed attack and another bite) for a total average damage of 8+17+8+17 (50) each round. On the table in the DMG, that damage value sits on the CR 7 row. We then compare the vampire's +9 attack bonus against the attack bonus on that row of the table (+6), and raise the CR by 1 for each 2 points of difference just like we lowered the defensive CR before, bringing us to CR 8.
Lastly, we average the offensive and defensive CRs, which is how we arrive at the CR 14 I mentioned earlier.
Any changes you make to the base vampire you can plug into the above numbers according to the DMG's list of how to handle various things besides direct increases to HP, AC, damage, or attack bonus, and re-do the table referencing process to come out with the results - though I will mention that if you give the vampire a weapon to use instead of their unarmed attack, you have to weigh the impact of using that weapon meaning not grappling their target and thus not being easily able to use their bite attack, so CR would be unaffected by the weapon unless using it made up for that lost bite attack.
Your example of a greataxe +2 wielded by a half-orc vampire, for example would not change the CR unless you added extra features that a half-orc doesn't normally have or other features to the axe besides a bonus to hit and damage - and you would want to have the vampire able to use the axe as a legendary action in order to keep its' offense around its current potency.
Alright, for this particular one, I want it to be a slightly more aggressive Vamp than normal, so I gave him the Aggressive trait which just gives him more movement. This also would not change the effective CR because of it only giving him a movement trait, in the DMG, it says to up the potential damage by 2 per round, even adding that trait should keep it at the CR 13. There should be a spreadsheet for all of this, lol.
I appreciate the help, this seems way more complicated than it used to be.
While it definitely is more complicated than it used to be, it's also been my experience that it is more accurate than 3rd edition was without having to be ultra-precise on the numbers like 4th edition did.
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I am looking for some way to give a group of NPC vampires, a nest if you will, some class levels to make them a little different from one another but have not been able to find any templates for adjusting the CRs for the end result. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
Rather than give each of them every feature of the class you want them to feel like, which can load up the stat-block with text of features that you end up not even engaging while using the NPC, do as the monster manual and other official sources do and add a few important features - like the sidebar in the vampire description does for "vampire warrior" and "vampire spellcaster".
As for adjusting CR after you've made changes, there is no hard-fast rule that is accurate because the impact of whatever new features you add depends on what the monster in question already had available (i.e. casting spells doesn't up the CR until the damage/defense capability of those spells is superior to the monster using it's normally available actions, while giving a spellcasting monster extra melee attacks won't change their CR if the spells still do better damage, and so on) - you have to re-calculate the CR of the creature following the guidance in the DMG.
Okay, so looking at the DMG I think I can work this out..
So one of the Vampires is a half-orc wielding a greatxe +2 so giving the standard vamp stats it gives him a melee attack but it does not move him up the CR rankings because the abilities it currently has melee damage in the 81 - 86 range, his current Max damage is 24 with multi-attack and all applicable bonuses. He wears Boots of Elvenkind but it does not give him more bonuses than his current abilities. His leather armor does not increase his natural AC because of the natural resistances.
Even with giving him some attributes like "Aggressive", "Brute", or "Rampage" would not increase the damage to the next CR level which keeps it at the base CR 13... Does this all sound correct?
The default vampire in the monster manual has a CR, as calculated by the DMG guidelines of 14 - adjusted down to 13 because it's not quite as tough as its numbers suggest it is.
That CR comes from a heaping-helping of defensive capabilities. It's defensive CR is calculated as it's 144 HP, plus 90 effective HP for it's legendary resistance uses, plus 60 effective HP for it's regeneration, x1.25 for having multiple resistances and an expected CR in the 11-16 range, giving a total effective HP of 367.5. We reference the table in the DMG for that HP value and find it is on the CR 20 row. We then check the vampire's 16 AC against AC listed on that row of the table, which is 19, and the defensive CR is adjusted down to 19 because of the more than 2 point difference.
On the offensive side of the calculations, we add together the most damaging attack option (one unarmed attack and a bite), plus the most damaging usage of the available legendary actions (another unarmed attack and another bite) for a total average damage of 8+17+8+17 (50) each round. On the table in the DMG, that damage value sits on the CR 7 row. We then compare the vampire's +9 attack bonus against the attack bonus on that row of the table (+6), and raise the CR by 1 for each 2 points of difference just like we lowered the defensive CR before, bringing us to CR 8.
Lastly, we average the offensive and defensive CRs, which is how we arrive at the CR 14 I mentioned earlier.
Any changes you make to the base vampire you can plug into the above numbers according to the DMG's list of how to handle various things besides direct increases to HP, AC, damage, or attack bonus, and re-do the table referencing process to come out with the results - though I will mention that if you give the vampire a weapon to use instead of their unarmed attack, you have to weigh the impact of using that weapon meaning not grappling their target and thus not being easily able to use their bite attack, so CR would be unaffected by the weapon unless using it made up for that lost bite attack.
Your example of a greataxe +2 wielded by a half-orc vampire, for example would not change the CR unless you added extra features that a half-orc doesn't normally have or other features to the axe besides a bonus to hit and damage - and you would want to have the vampire able to use the axe as a legendary action in order to keep its' offense around its current potency.
Alright, for this particular one, I want it to be a slightly more aggressive Vamp than normal, so I gave him the Aggressive trait which just gives him more movement. This also would not change the effective CR because of it only giving him a movement trait, in the DMG, it says to up the potential damage by 2 per round, even adding that trait should keep it at the CR 13. There should be a spreadsheet for all of this, lol.
I appreciate the help, this seems way more complicated than it used to be.
While it definitely is more complicated than it used to be, it's also been my experience that it is more accurate than 3rd edition was without having to be ultra-precise on the numbers like 4th edition did.