Literally at 15 level it is impossible to kill. 14th zealot give you rage beyond death so aslong as raging you can't die. You count the death saves but they would only kill you if you come out of rage before being healed. Which in of itself is nearly unbeatable. But at 15th all barbs get persistent rage which means rage it only ends if you choose or you fall unconscious and with rage beyond death you can't fall unconscious. So worst case scenario no one has healing potion every one goes unconscious you can stabilize the healer and then finish fight however long it takes and just wait the 1d4 hours for a stable creature to regain hitpoints and by that level if the others died you have the ability of higher level revives that could bring them back even if it took a little while to get the diamonds and the odds of this scenario are so unlikely. In theory a level 15 zealot barbarian could solo any and every creature in the game.
The rage still only lasts one minute. Persistent Rage only means the rage won't finish early due to no attacks or damage - it still ends after one minute, at which point you might die. You also have a limited number of rages.
But, yes, Zealot Barbarians are exceedingly hard to kill, and just as hard to keep dead.
That is, until you get to level 20 and have unlimited rages.
Have you ever heard the phrase "too angry to die"? This is what they were talking about.
True, so you can continue raging indefinitely.
However, a single rage is still limited to 1 minute. When it ends, you can immediately rage again, but that would not stop you from potentially dying before you can do so.
That is, until you get to level 20 and have unlimited rages.
Have you ever heard the phrase "too angry to die"? This is what they were talking about.
True, so you can continue raging indefinitely.
However, a single rage is still limited to 1 minute. When it ends, you can immediately rage again, but that would not stop you from potentially dying before you can do so.
I don’t think there’s anything preventing you from initiating a new rage while still under the effect of a previous rage, so you can indeed establish zero downtime during which you may die.
I don’t think there’s anything preventing you from initiating a new rage while still under the effect of a previous rage, so you can indeed establish zero downtime during which you may die.
Hmm.... Looks like you may be right, by one interpretation of RAW. There is nothing written which prevents you from starting a new rage before the previous one ends, and it would be a reasonable reading to say that your rage, therefore, never ends.
However, I think it would also be perfectly reasonable to read it as the first rage ends after one minute*, so you would die at that point if you were still at 0HP. I could see myself ruling that way, or house ruling that you can only start a new rage when the previous one has ended, as the ability to indefinitely delay death seems... well, I don't think even overpowered covers it!
* Nothing says you cannot have 2 "active" rages at once, but the first still "lasts for 1 minute". So that rage ends after that one minute, and Rage Beyond Death specifically links it to your rage ending, not that you are no longer raging...
I don’t think there’s anything preventing you from initiating a new rage while still under the effect of a previous rage, so you can indeed establish zero downtime during which you may die.
But you will at some point need to regain some hit points during this endless rage before you stop to rest. If you keep going you would last a few days before you died from exhaustion.
However, I think it would also be perfectly reasonable to read it as the first rage ends after one minute*, so you would die at that point if you were still at 0HP. I could see myself ruling that way, or house ruling that you can only start a new rage when the previous one has ended, as the ability to indefinitely delay death seems... well, I don't think even overpowered covers it!
I had a player with a Path of the Zealot barbarian in one of my campaigns, and we handled the raging ability much like how you described it, Urth. Our "house ruled" concept was that raging was similar to concentrating on a spell in so much that a barbarian cannot maintain a new rage without dropping the previous rage (either from it waring off or being intentional dropped when raging anew). With that general concept in mind, it meant that the Zealot barbarian, who had failed three death saves while raging, would drop before the new rage would take effect.
Having said that, however, I did allow this same player to multiclass with a couple levels of fighter and use their Second Wind bonus action to heal prior to the rage ending, which prevented them from dying in a couple situations where they wouldn't have had the hit points remaining otherwise.
You are already at 0HP, so would automatically fall to this being cast at 1st level. This would end your rage and, if you had already failed your death saving throws, kill you.
It's not wise to rely on Rage Beyond Death, even with a 20th level Zealot and a generous reading of the rules, when you are so vulnerable to such a low level spell...
* Nothing says you cannot have 2 "active" rages at once, but the first still "lasts for 1 minute". So that rage ends after that one minute, and Rage Beyond Death specifically links it to your rage ending, not that you are no longer raging...
On that note there actually is.
Combining Game Effects
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap.
"Potent" meaning either highest value in the effect description (most damage, biggest bonus) or longest remaining duration.
So when you apply a second layer of rage, the first layer of rage gets completely ignored, including it ending etc.
Doesn't mean you can't house rule it if you think it is unbalanced. The concentration idea isn't bad.
I'm not sure it completely rules it out. Even if the only the effects of the second one apply, the first rage would still end after a minute. The rage ending isn't an effect of the rage. This would still potentially, therefore, trigger the end of the death delay.
Either that, or you could consider the end of the rage being when the effects of the rage end, in which case it would kick in as soon as the second rage begins (because the effects of the first stop applying).
So, even taking that into account, I think there is a reading of RAW which stops Rage Beyond Death from operation indefinitely.
I'm not sure it completely rules it out. Even if the only the effects of the second one apply, the first rage would still end after a minute. The rage ending isn't an effect of the rage. This would still potentially, therefore, trigger the end of the death delay.
Either that, or you could consider the end of the rage being when the effects of the rage end, in which case it would kick in as soon as the second rage begins (because the effects of the first stop applying).
So, even taking that into account, I think there is a reading of RAW which stops Rage Beyond Death from operation indefinitely.
That logic doesn't really hold up.
Like lets say you fall if you are not standing on a platform. You start on platform A, then you step onto platform B. Then platform A collapses. Do you fall? No, because you are still raging.
If we assume that it is possible to have “multiple rages,” then I think the only way to sensibly interpret “until your rage ends” is as “until you’re no longer raging,” or “until all your rages end.”
I don’t think the position that it means “until the instance of rage that was active when this feature triggered” is necessarily contradicted, but it does feel like a very arbitrary and unintuitive ruling designed to prevent one specific occurrence that will never happen in the wild.
Polymorph into a bunny. Wait for rage to end, since as a bunny they cannot rage again. Drop concentration so they return to normal form without rage. They'll be at 0 hp without rage.
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Polymorph into a bunny. Wait for rage to end, since as a bunny they cannot rage again. Drop concentration so they return to normal form without rage. They'll be at 0 hp without rage.
Polymorph into a bunny. Wait for rage to end, since as a bunny they cannot rage again. Drop concentration so they return to normal form without rage. They'll be at 0 hp without rage.
Does Power Word Kill work even if the beyond death raging is still going? Doesn't that negate the ability to be killed?
The feature does not negate the ability to be killed.
It: keeps you conscious when at 0 hit points.
You don't die from "failing death saving throws", but you still make them when you are damaged.
You can be dying and the feature prevents you from actually dying as a result of death saving throws.
But you can still die. If an effect kills you by means other than failing death saving throws - like a Shadow's drain attack, or if you are dealt damage equal to your max health while at 0 hp, you still die.
Power Word Kill completely bypasses death saving throws. It is literally "if target <= 100 hp they die", not 'drop to 0 hp' or 'fails a death save', just "they die".
Zealot Barbs are "harder to kill" but do not become immune to death, at all. They are still killable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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This is really late, but any spell that causes Incapacitated easily screws this. Barbarian trying this on you? Banish them, hypnotic pattern them literally any spell with a 1 minute duration and causes incapacitation is an instant counter.
The main challenge with the Zealot barbarian is that there aren't many ways to kill them without using a spell or similar effect; even some of the most fearsome creatures like an ancient red dragon (assuming no added magic) or a tarrasque are basically incapable of killing them. It could wipe the rest of the party, but as long as the barbarian has a potion to drink after they finally kill it, they'll walk away from that fight just fine.
At least in the dragon's case you could just add spellcasting or give them a kobold scale sorcerer minion with sleep or something, but it's a weird thing to have to deal with as so many monsters become non-threatening when you can't die, though of course that's assuming you can either force them to only fight you, or you don't care about the rest of your party…
One of the other options I'm not sure was mentioned is anything that can cause the barbarian to be charmed, though even then it depends on the level of control as simply making them non-hostile won't prevent them from wanting to heal themselves first chance they get, so it needs to be something like a vampire's Charm ability though even that's debatable (taking the vampire's request "favourably" doesn't necessarily mean not drinking a potion before doing them, so it'd have to be a very specific request, but that might then be enough to count as something harmful and trigger another saving throw).
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Is this correct?
Literally at 15 level it is impossible to kill. 14th zealot give you rage beyond death so aslong as raging you can't die. You count the death saves but they would only kill you if you come out of rage before being healed. Which in of itself is nearly unbeatable. But at 15th all barbs get persistent rage which means rage it only ends if you choose or you fall unconscious and with rage beyond death you can't fall unconscious. So worst case scenario no one has healing potion every one goes unconscious you can stabilize the healer and then finish fight however long it takes and just wait the 1d4 hours for a stable creature to regain hitpoints and by that level if the others died you have the ability of higher level revives that could bring them back even if it took a little while to get the diamonds and the odds of this scenario are so unlikely. In theory a level 15 zealot barbarian could solo any and every creature in the game.
The rage still only lasts one minute. Persistent Rage only means the rage won't finish early due to no attacks or damage - it still ends after one minute, at which point you might die. You also have a limited number of rages.
But, yes, Zealot Barbarians are exceedingly hard to kill, and just as hard to keep dead.
Gotcha, thanks!
That is, until you get to level 20 and have unlimited rages.
Have you ever heard the phrase "too angry to die"? This is what they were talking about.
True, so you can continue raging indefinitely.
However, a single rage is still limited to 1 minute. When it ends, you can immediately rage again, but that would not stop you from potentially dying before you can do so.
I don’t think there’s anything preventing you from initiating a new rage while still under the effect of a previous rage, so you can indeed establish zero downtime during which you may die.
Hmm.... Looks like you may be right, by one interpretation of RAW. There is nothing written which prevents you from starting a new rage before the previous one ends, and it would be a reasonable reading to say that your rage, therefore, never ends.
However, I think it would also be perfectly reasonable to read it as the first rage ends after one minute*, so you would die at that point if you were still at 0HP. I could see myself ruling that way, or house ruling that you can only start a new rage when the previous one has ended, as the ability to indefinitely delay death seems... well, I don't think even overpowered covers it!
* Nothing says you cannot have 2 "active" rages at once, but the first still "lasts for 1 minute". So that rage ends after that one minute, and Rage Beyond Death specifically links it to your rage ending, not that you are no longer raging...
But you will at some point need to regain some hit points during this endless rage before you stop to rest. If you keep going you would last a few days before you died from exhaustion.
I had a player with a Path of the Zealot barbarian in one of my campaigns, and we handled the raging ability much like how you described it, Urth. Our "house ruled" concept was that raging was similar to concentrating on a spell in so much that a barbarian cannot maintain a new rage without dropping the previous rage (either from it waring off or being intentional dropped when raging anew). With that general concept in mind, it meant that the Zealot barbarian, who had failed three death saves while raging, would drop before the new rage would take effect.
Having said that, however, I did allow this same player to multiclass with a couple levels of fighter and use their Second Wind bonus action to heal prior to the rage ending, which prevented them from dying in a couple situations where they wouldn't have had the hit points remaining otherwise.
One thing to remember, also, is that your rage still ends if you go unconscious. Given that...
sleep
You are already at 0HP, so would automatically fall to this being cast at 1st level. This would end your rage and, if you had already failed your death saving throws, kill you.
It's not wise to rely on Rage Beyond Death, even with a 20th level Zealot and a generous reading of the rules, when you are so vulnerable to such a low level spell...
On that note there actually is.
"Potent" meaning either highest value in the effect description (most damage, biggest bonus) or longest remaining duration.
So when you apply a second layer of rage, the first layer of rage gets completely ignored, including it ending etc.
Doesn't mean you can't house rule it if you think it is unbalanced. The concentration idea isn't bad.
I'm not sure it completely rules it out. Even if the only the effects of the second one apply, the first rage would still end after a minute. The rage ending isn't an effect of the rage. This would still potentially, therefore, trigger the end of the death delay.
Either that, or you could consider the end of the rage being when the effects of the rage end, in which case it would kick in as soon as the second rage begins (because the effects of the first stop applying).
So, even taking that into account, I think there is a reading of RAW which stops Rage Beyond Death from operation indefinitely.
That logic doesn't really hold up.
Like lets say you fall if you are not standing on a platform. You start on platform A, then you step onto platform B. Then platform A collapses. Do you fall? No, because you are still raging.
If we assume that it is possible to have “multiple rages,” then I think the only way to sensibly interpret “until your rage ends” is as “until you’re no longer raging,” or “until all your rages end.”
I don’t think the position that it means “until the instance of rage that was active when this feature triggered” is necessarily contradicted, but it does feel like a very arbitrary and unintuitive ruling designed to prevent one specific occurrence that will never happen in the wild.
Polymorph into a bunny. Wait for rage to end, since as a bunny they cannot rage again. Drop concentration so they return to normal form without rage. They'll be at 0 hp without rage.
Sleep if not an elf.
Dominate Person - take control, choose to end the rage.
Power Word Kill.
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Does Power Word Kill work even if the beyond death raging is still going? Doesn't that negate the ability to be killed?
Also, I really appreciate all the discussion, it's very interesting!
The feature does not negate the ability to be killed.
It: keeps you conscious when at 0 hit points.
You don't die from "failing death saving throws", but you still make them when you are damaged.
You can be dying and the feature prevents you from actually dying as a result of death saving throws.
But you can still die. If an effect kills you by means other than failing death saving throws - like a Shadow's drain attack, or if you are dealt damage equal to your max health while at 0 hp, you still die.
Power Word Kill completely bypasses death saving throws. It is literally "if target <= 100 hp they die", not 'drop to 0 hp' or 'fails a death save', just "they die".
Zealot Barbs are "harder to kill" but do not become immune to death, at all. They are still killable.
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This is really late, but any spell that causes Incapacitated easily screws this. Barbarian trying this on you? Banish them, hypnotic pattern them literally any spell with a 1 minute duration and causes incapacitation is an instant counter.
The main challenge with the Zealot barbarian is that there aren't many ways to kill them without using a spell or similar effect; even some of the most fearsome creatures like an ancient red dragon (assuming no added magic) or a tarrasque are basically incapable of killing them. It could wipe the rest of the party, but as long as the barbarian has a potion to drink after they finally kill it, they'll walk away from that fight just fine.
At least in the dragon's case you could just add spellcasting or give them a kobold scale sorcerer minion with sleep or something, but it's a weird thing to have to deal with as so many monsters become non-threatening when you can't die, though of course that's assuming you can either force them to only fight you, or you don't care about the rest of your party…
One of the other options I'm not sure was mentioned is anything that can cause the barbarian to be charmed, though even then it depends on the level of control as simply making them non-hostile won't prevent them from wanting to heal themselves first chance they get, so it needs to be something like a vampire's Charm ability though even that's debatable (taking the vampire's request "favourably" doesn't necessarily mean not drinking a potion before doing them, so it'd have to be a very specific request, but that might then be enough to count as something harmful and trigger another saving throw).
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