I was pondering the nature of darkvision and how it works in the world of D&D - not specifically game mechanics but more physics/metaphysics of how it functions. I had an idea where there was special writing or other features that can only be seen using darkvision (such as a mural that shows a fun garden party scene of nobles... but if you look at it in darkness using darkvision all the figures are skeletons or something weird like that).
This got me thinking... do mirrors work with darkvision? If you are in pure (natural) darkness and look in a mirror, do you just see a blank surface? I can see arguments for both yes and no... and also see other opportunities such as "silver mirrors don't reflect in darkvision, but polished black ones do" or all sorts of other possibilities.
The dark vision trait in 5E does not dictate any issues other than color when using dark vision. I’ve even seen dungeons with no light sources mention reflection.
The dark vision trait in 5E does not dictate any issues other than color when using dark vision. I’ve even seen dungeons with no light sources mention reflection.
The question is not whether Darkvision says no reflections, but whether it ALLOWS for reflection. You are presuming the question.
In the game, everything is assumed to follow normal physics EXCEPT where the rules differ. No where in the game does it say that normal people can't shoot laser beams out of their eyes, obviously they cannot unless something says it does.
Reflections are about light. (American Heritage definition: "Something, such as light, radiant heat, sound, or an image, that is reflected.") Without light, heat, sound or similar effect in the real world, there is no reflection. Therefore if there is no light, there is no reflection in the game as well, unless the game says otherwise or at least makes some mention of heat, sound or similar effect.
There is nothing about darkvision that states it can see reflections, nor any mention of heat, sound, etc. therefore you do not.
I was pondering the nature of darkvision and how it works in the world of D&D - not specifically game mechanics but more physics/metaphysics of how it functions. I had an idea where there was special writing or other features that can only be seen using darkvision (such as a mural that shows a fun garden party scene of nobles... but if you look at it in darkness using darkvision all the figures are skeletons or something weird like that).
This got me thinking... do mirrors work with darkvision?
What do you mean by "mirror"? Darkvision doesn't use light in the visual spectrum, so a surface being reflective or not in the visual spectrum won't matter to it. It is absolutely possible for a surface to reflect darkvision images if your DM says it does.
If you are in pure (natural) darkness and look in a mirror, do you just see a blank surface?
Without too much loss of accuracy you can think of darkvision working like IR goggles paired with a heat lamp does (it doesn't work that way, I'm saying this can be a helpful mental image). Do you know what aluminum foil under a heat lamp looks like when using IR goggles?
I can see arguments for both yes and no... and also see other opportunities such as "silver mirrors don't reflect in darkvision, but polished black ones do" or all sorts of other possibilities.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
There is no rule that says how mirrors work in the first place; mirror, steel has no rules text. This normally means "it works the way the we expect mirrors to work", but we have no expectations for how mirrors interact with darkvision, because the people playing the game don't have darkvision, and the rules don't explain how it works. By default I would assume it works the same way as normal vision, but if a DM ruled otherwise, as long as they didn't ambush me with the ruling, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
This is the only sensible answer without thinking way too much about what would amount to extremely GM-specific answers to questions about the fictional (not game) mechanics of darkvision.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
This is the only sensible answer without thinking way too much about what would amount to extremely GM-specific answers to questions about the fictional (not game) mechanics of darkvision.
Zero thought: Mirrors reflect LIGHT. No light, no reflection.
Your answer depends on how much thought you give. For your statement to be true, you have to have failed high school physics and not know how mirrors work. Do you think they are magic in the real world? I knew how mirrors worked in Middle School. In general, I have found that whenever I say 'thinking too much', it means the the other guy is merely smarter than me. Also, there is always someone smarter than me. That is why I quite the Advanced college math classes I felt I was thinking too much. So I stuck with politics and psychology.
Using the "Thinking Too Much" argument just makes everyone else think less of you. It is not convincing.
I have seen good arguments for why Mirrors would work for Darkvision. Not for Blindsight, Truesight, or Tremorsense, but there is a good argument for Darkvision. I disagree with it, but I do know it exists - and I have not seen it here.
In any case, this is something up to your DM. Ask him and just accept whatever they say is true. It is not something you can get an answer for here because there is no official ruling and no consensus.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
This is the only sensible answer without thinking way too much about what would amount to extremely GM-specific answers to questions about the fictional (not game) mechanics of darkvision.
Zero thought: Mirrors reflect LIGHT. No light, no reflection.
It's extremely rare for "darkness" in D&D to mean "no light."
Your answer depends on how much thought you give. For your statement to be true, you have to have failed high school physics and not know how mirrors work. Do you think they are magic in the real world? I knew how mirrors worked in Middle School. In general, I have found that whenever I say 'thinking too much', it means the the other guy is merely smarter than me. Also, there is always someone smarter than me. That is why I quite the Advanced college math classes I felt I was thinking too much. So I stuck with politics and psychology.
Hey quick question, have you thought about not being unbearably and thoughtlessly condescending?
Zero thought: Mirrors reflect LIGHT. No light, no reflection.
Your answer depends on how much thought you give. For your statement to be true, you have to have failed high school physics and not know how mirrors work.
Zero thought: Vision detects LIGHT. No light, no vision.
Oh wait, Darkvision works without light. Apparently your high school physics is wrong in D&D.
I'm going to answer with, "D&D is not a physics simulator."
There is no support for the position that photons and reflection work the same in D&D as they do in the real world. Given that darkvision allows vision in complete darkness, there is support for the position that photons and light doesn't work the same in D&D.
In the game, mirrors able to reflect curses (medusa) as well as vision, so it makes sense they can reflect darkvision as well. Maybe the real answer is, "mirrors are magic"?
Reflections are about light. (American Heritage definition: "Something, such as light, radiant heat, sound, or an image, that is reflected.") Without light, heat, sound or similar effect in the real world, there is no reflection.
Normal darkness isn't the complete absence of light. It's the absence of enough light for our eyes to work
You could just as easily argue darkvision is simply a more efficient form of vision that needs less ambient light -- and thus could still pick up reflections
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is tough for me because my general philosophy is that we should expect things in D&D to behave like they do in the real world unless there is a rule or feature that changes that expectation. But then again, I also believe that darkvision lets you see a mirror reflection in darkness up to the range of your darkvision the same way regular vision lets you see a mirror reflection in light out to the range of your vision. The only way I can square these two things is to say that the existence of darkvision as an ability to see without light changes my expectation of how mirrors should work in D&D. I admit that this conclusion requires me to make an assumption that is not explicitly stated in the rules.
This is tough for me because my general philosophy is that we should expect things in D&D to behave like they do in the real world unless there is a rule or feature that changes that expectation. But then again, I also believe that darkvision lets you see a mirror reflection in darkness up to the range of your darkvision the same way regular vision lets you see a mirror reflection in light out to the range of your vision. The only way I can square these two things is to say that the existence of darkvision as an ability to see without light changes my expectation of how mirrors should work in D&D. I admit that this conclusion requires me to make an assumption that is not explicitly stated in the rules.
Mirror reflection isn't fundamentally different from the reflection that lets people see anything else. I think the feeling that you even need to "square" anything is born from an unscientific notion that mirrors are somehow "special," physically speaking. The main way in which they are special, that they tend to reflect incoming light in a single direction rather than in all directions, isn't really relevant to this discussion, at least not in any way that I can see.
Personally, I believe this is a DM ruling either across the game or in individual circumstances.
Regular animals such as the badger, frog and owl have darkvision. The darkvision sense isn't magical in nature (although it might be provided by magic). These creatures don't have a magical ability, they can simply see very well in the dark and darkvision accommodates this (note also that it doesn't penetrate heavy fog).
Darkness doesn't necessarily mean a complete absence of light. From the PHB: "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.". A cave, could easily be benefiting from "far-red" light all through it, from either outside, distant light sources inside or some sort of bioluminescence from many tiny sources.
It should be noted that the magical Darkness spell notes that non-magical light can't pass through it and that it prevents darkvision, which suggests it creates a more absolute darkness where there would be no light for Darkvision to pickup.
Without rules to exactly specify details on the mirror, I would argue that a DM could simply rule across the game that they do or don't work, or be willing to determine that some places are so dark that it's effectively a Darkness spell, except non-magical light could illuminate if a source was available, and darkvision simply doesn't work. If it isn't that dark then, darkvision works and some spectrum of light (possibly from far away) is reflecting around to make vision possible.
Again, that's DM ruling but the PHB note on what constitutes "Darkness" certainly suggests we're not talking about a complete absence of light in many circumstances, so there would indeed be light to reflect from a mirror unless the DM is ruling that the players are in absolute darkness.
Regular animals such as the badger, frog and owl have darkvision. The darkvision sense isn't magical in nature (although it might be provided by magic). These creatures don't have a magical ability, they can simply see very well in the dark and darkvision accommodates this (note also that it doesn't penetrate heavy fog).
3e, 3.5e, and 4e distinguished between low light vision (can see further in dim light) and dark vision (can see in total darkness). 5e apparently decided that was too confusing and gave everything the ability to see in total darkness.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
This is the only sensible answer without thinking way too much about what would amount to extremely GM-specific answers to questions about the fictional (not game) mechanics of darkvision.
I'm also in this camp.
Why complicate things when there's no specific RAW that says that Darkvision doesn't work with reflections.
Next people will be saying that in complete darkness that somebody with darkvision can't see illusions.
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I was pondering the nature of darkvision and how it works in the world of D&D - not specifically game mechanics but more physics/metaphysics of how it functions. I had an idea where there was special writing or other features that can only be seen using darkvision (such as a mural that shows a fun garden party scene of nobles... but if you look at it in darkness using darkvision all the figures are skeletons or something weird like that).
This got me thinking... do mirrors work with darkvision? If you are in pure (natural) darkness and look in a mirror, do you just see a blank surface? I can see arguments for both yes and no... and also see other opportunities such as "silver mirrors don't reflect in darkvision, but polished black ones do" or all sorts of other possibilities.
The dark vision trait in 5E does not dictate any issues other than color when using dark vision. I’ve even seen dungeons with no light sources mention reflection.
The question is not whether Darkvision says no reflections, but whether it ALLOWS for reflection. You are presuming the question.
In the game, everything is assumed to follow normal physics EXCEPT where the rules differ. No where in the game does it say that normal people can't shoot laser beams out of their eyes, obviously they cannot unless something says it does.
Reflections are about light. (American Heritage definition: "Something, such as light, radiant heat, sound, or an image, that is reflected.") Without light, heat, sound or similar effect in the real world, there is no reflection. Therefore if there is no light, there is no reflection in the game as well, unless the game says otherwise or at least makes some mention of heat, sound or similar effect.
There is nothing about darkvision that states it can see reflections, nor any mention of heat, sound, etc. therefore you do not.
What do you mean by "mirror"? Darkvision doesn't use light in the visual spectrum, so a surface being reflective or not in the visual spectrum won't matter to it. It is absolutely possible for a surface to reflect darkvision images if your DM says it does.
Without too much loss of accuracy you can think of darkvision working like IR goggles paired with a heat lamp does (it doesn't work that way, I'm saying this can be a helpful mental image). Do you know what aluminum foil under a heat lamp looks like when using IR goggles?
Now you're on the right track.
I'm not aware of a general rule for darkvision that is altered by mirrors or reflections. As long as the distance from the subject -> mirror -> you doesn't exceed the range of your darkvision, you should be ok.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is no rule that says how mirrors work in the first place; mirror, steel has no rules text. This normally means "it works the way the we expect mirrors to work", but we have no expectations for how mirrors interact with darkvision, because the people playing the game don't have darkvision, and the rules don't explain how it works. By default I would assume it works the same way as normal vision, but if a DM ruled otherwise, as long as they didn't ambush me with the ruling, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
This is the only sensible answer without thinking way too much about what would amount to extremely GM-specific answers to questions about the fictional (not game) mechanics of darkvision.
Zero thought: Mirrors reflect LIGHT. No light, no reflection.
Your answer depends on how much thought you give. For your statement to be true, you have to have failed high school physics and not know how mirrors work. Do you think they are magic in the real world? I knew how mirrors worked in Middle School. In general, I have found that whenever I say 'thinking too much', it means the the other guy is merely smarter than me. Also, there is always someone smarter than me. That is why I quite the Advanced college math classes I felt I was thinking too much. So I stuck with politics and psychology.
Using the "Thinking Too Much" argument just makes everyone else think less of you. It is not convincing.
I have seen good arguments for why Mirrors would work for Darkvision. Not for Blindsight, Truesight, or Tremorsense, but there is a good argument for Darkvision. I disagree with it, but I do know it exists - and I have not seen it here.
In any case, this is something up to your DM. Ask him and just accept whatever they say is true. It is not something you can get an answer for here because there is no official ruling and no consensus.
It's extremely rare for "darkness" in D&D to mean "no light."
Hey quick question, have you thought about not being unbearably and thoughtlessly condescending?
Zero thought: Vision detects LIGHT. No light, no vision.
Oh wait, Darkvision works without light. Apparently your high school physics is wrong in D&D.
I'm going to answer with, "D&D is not a physics simulator."
There is no support for the position that photons and reflection work the same in D&D as they do in the real world. Given that darkvision allows vision in complete darkness, there is support for the position that photons and light doesn't work the same in D&D.
In the game, mirrors able to reflect curses (medusa) as well as vision, so it makes sense they can reflect darkvision as well. Maybe the real answer is, "mirrors are magic"?
Normal darkness isn't the complete absence of light. It's the absence of enough light for our eyes to work
You could just as easily argue darkvision is simply a more efficient form of vision that needs less ambient light -- and thus could still pick up reflections
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is tough for me because my general philosophy is that we should expect things in D&D to behave like they do in the real world unless there is a rule or feature that changes that expectation. But then again, I also believe that darkvision lets you see a mirror reflection in darkness up to the range of your darkvision the same way regular vision lets you see a mirror reflection in light out to the range of your vision. The only way I can square these two things is to say that the existence of darkvision as an ability to see without light changes my expectation of how mirrors should work in D&D. I admit that this conclusion requires me to make an assumption that is not explicitly stated in the rules.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Mirror reflection isn't fundamentally different from the reflection that lets people see anything else. I think the feeling that you even need to "square" anything is born from an unscientific notion that mirrors are somehow "special," physically speaking. The main way in which they are special, that they tend to reflect incoming light in a single direction rather than in all directions, isn't really relevant to this discussion, at least not in any way that I can see.
Darkvision makes dim light appear as full light and darkness to appear as dim light. Why wouldn't a mirror work in dim light?
You can see the moon on a lake at night - dim light.
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Personally, I believe this is a DM ruling either across the game or in individual circumstances.
Regular animals such as the badger, frog and owl have darkvision. The darkvision sense isn't magical in nature (although it might be provided by magic). These creatures don't have a magical ability, they can simply see very well in the dark and darkvision accommodates this (note also that it doesn't penetrate heavy fog).
Darkness doesn't necessarily mean a complete absence of light. From the PHB: "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.". A cave, could easily be benefiting from "far-red" light all through it, from either outside, distant light sources inside or some sort of bioluminescence from many tiny sources.
It should be noted that the magical Darkness spell notes that non-magical light can't pass through it and that it prevents darkvision, which suggests it creates a more absolute darkness where there would be no light for Darkvision to pickup.
Without rules to exactly specify details on the mirror, I would argue that a DM could simply rule across the game that they do or don't work, or be willing to determine that some places are so dark that it's effectively a Darkness spell, except non-magical light could illuminate if a source was available, and darkvision simply doesn't work. If it isn't that dark then, darkvision works and some spectrum of light (possibly from far away) is reflecting around to make vision possible.
Again, that's DM ruling but the PHB note on what constitutes "Darkness" certainly suggests we're not talking about a complete absence of light in many circumstances, so there would indeed be light to reflect from a mirror unless the DM is ruling that the players are in absolute darkness.
I tend to go with ACEspinz's concept.
It just works better in lower light conditions. Like cats eyes. More black and white and less color.
3e, 3.5e, and 4e distinguished between low light vision (can see further in dim light) and dark vision (can see in total darkness). 5e apparently decided that was too confusing and gave everything the ability to see in total darkness.
I am also on the "Darkvision is more like an residual light amplifier rather than IR goggles" camp. So, mirrors work just fine.
I'm also in this camp.
Why complicate things when there's no specific RAW that says that Darkvision doesn't work with reflections.
Next people will be saying that in complete darkness that somebody with darkvision can't see illusions.