My confusion is with the language of the lore and the rules. In the lore section it seems to say that all magic users need to be a member in good standing with the tower, but the rules don't seem to be so strict.
The lore giving me pause
Many magic-users on Krynn are members of an ancient organization known as the Mages of High Sorcery. Predominantly composed of wizards—with a lesser number of sorcerers, warlocks, and other spellcasters—members are divided into three orders...
...An apprentice mage who seeks to join one of the three orders must first pass a trial known as the Test of High Sorcery...
...Renegade Mages
If a spellcaster leaves or is thrown out of the Mages of High Sorcery, or they fail the Test of High Sorcery and survive, the organization’s leaders forbid them from continuing to practice magic. Mages who practice magic in defiance of the Conclave are deemed renegades. Members of the robed orders are duty-bound to report and oppose such renegades. Some order members hunt renegades, seeking to punish or slay those who’ve defied the Mages of High Sorcery.
The high sorcery background:
Your talent for magic came to the attention of the Mages of High Sorcery, an organization of spellcasters that studies magic and prevents its misuse. You’ve trained among the Mages, but whether you’ll face the dangerous test required to become a full member of the group remains to be determined. Your passion for studying magic has likely already predisposed you toward one of the organization’s three orders: the benevolent Order of the White Robes, the balance-pursuing Order of the Red Robes, or the ruthless Order of the Black Robes.
In the world of Krynn, many refer to the Mages of High Sorcery as the Wizards of High Sorcery. The organization accepts more than wizards, though, with sorcerers, warlocks, and other spellcasters included among their ranks.
So if I wanted to play a wizard with different feat choices rather than being an "official" member of the Mages, is that allowed?
I’d think you could be a member of high sorcery without taking the feats, if that’s what you’re asking. And definitely you can be a wizard without being in high sorcery, if you deal with the consequences of being a renegade. But it seems like a “talk to your DM situation.” There’s official lore in the rule book , which is ambiguous, but in the end, as always, what matters is what your table is doing.
I guess I could clarify a bit. Lore wise could I be a wizard and not a member of the Tower without being considered a renegade? Like could I be an independent contractor who gets licensed by the tower or do I have to join the union to not be considered a renegade?
I guess I could clarify a bit. Lore wise could I be a wizard and not a member of the Tower without being considered a renegade? Like could I be an independent contractor who gets licensed by the tower or do I have to join the union to not be considered a renegade?
Lorewise, you have to be a member of the Tower to not be a renegade. But ruleswise, nothing says you need to take the High Sorcery background to be a member of the Tower.
I guess I could clarify a bit. Lore wise could I be a wizard and not a member of the Tower without being considered a renegade? Like could I be an independent contractor who gets licensed by the tower or do I have to join the union to not be considered a renegade?
Oh, like that. Well since "renegade" is a concept the Tower created with a very "with us or against us" attitude. So in that sense, no. You are either with them or not.
Of course that doesn't mean every member of the Tower prosecutes renegade mages and some may be willing to work with you. That is completely up to the DM and their narrative.
Lore isn't nearly as black and white as rules (which is already pretty grey).
It sounds to me like you're only a renegade if you leave. If you never join, you're not. But they also try to get you to join as soon as anyone finds out you have magic, so good luck with that.
From what I remember reading the books, anyone who wants to practice magic had to undergo the Test of High Sorcery. But I don't ever remember any arcane magic users that weren't wizards, like sorcerers, warlocks, artificers, Eldritch Knight. And all the representations I can remember the wizards were members of the Tower, wearing the robes and such.
I guess part of me loved the books as a kid and I want to remain true to the world. It seems weird to have a wizard not part of the Tower, but just because non union wizards were never represented in the books doesn't mean they can't exist?
Because when they wrote those books, magic users were the only arcane casters. There were no sorcerers, warlocks, artificers, eldritch knights, etc. in those editions of the game.
Because when they wrote those books, magic users were the only arcane casters. There were no sorcerers, warlocks, artificers, eldritch knights, etc. in those editions of the game.
That is part of what I'm asking. The rules for the game may have to depart from the cannon to be playable. From my memory anyone who wanted to practice magic had to undergo the Trial early in their career to keep practicing.
If I'm just going off the new sourcebook I'd probably come to the conclusion that being a member is as optional as being a knight of Solamnia is for a martial class. If I'm going by the novels, joining the order is a requisite to practice magic.
Maybe I need to let go of this aspect of the novels and embrace the necessity of changing the strictness for playability? I suppose what I'd really like is some sort of official in depth explanation of the differences. Or a more explicit stating of the Tower's stance on magic use outside the Order.
Well, then it really does come down to your DM. If mages are going to be hunting you for being a renegade, it will be up to your DM to make that happen. So it’s really going to be their call on if they want to do that, and how extensive it will be, or if they just want to ignore it.
Well, then it really does come down to your DM. If mages are going to be hunting you for being a renegade, it will be up to your DM to make that happen. So it’s really going to be their call on if they want to do that, and how extensive it will be, or if they just want to ignore it.
I'm sure my DM will allow it. I think its more for my own immersion and appreciation of the world of Dragonlance.
I got the same issue, because I'm watchin the video about the feats and backgrounds and I read the book already (cause why not).
And from my understanding I could be a knight of solamnia and a member of the magic order at the same time IF I got a class like a Valor Bard ??? (yeah breaking the world !!!) -- I have not read all DL novels, but is that situation happened or acceptable ?
I got the same issue, because I'm watchin the video about the feats and backgrounds and I read the book already (cause why not).
And from my understanding I could be a knight of solamnia and a member of the magic order at the same time IF I got a class like a Valor Bard ??? (yeah breaking the world !!!) -- I have not read all DL novels, but is that situation happened or acceptable ?
I think the rules would allow it, though you'd still only be able to take one or the other backgrounds and bonus feats. An Eldritch Knight might work well too.
In the novels (didn't read all of them) I don't remember any thing like that. The two organizations were pretty separate, I can't recall even any relations between them. I think you'd need to come up with some kind of backstory to make the pairing make sense.
Remember that back when the books were written the only class that used magic other than a mage was a high level ranger so you might go back to see how they were handled. I suspect that they were neither members of the council nor considered renegades but I didn’t read most of the books so very unsure.
There are story implications for not being a member of the order. But that's a character choice between you and your DM.
Mechanically you can do whatever you want.
The only real restriction here is to have the background or the feats presented in the dragonlance campaign, you must be in a dragonlance campaign. But they're not mandatory if you're in the campaign, just additional options. And they're not options if you're not in the campaign.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I got the same issue, because I'm watchin the video about the feats and backgrounds and I read the book already (cause why not).
And from my understanding I could be a knight of solamnia and a member of the magic order at the same time IF I got a class like a Valor Bard ??? (yeah breaking the world !!!) -- I have not read all DL novels, but is that situation happened or acceptable ?
I think the rules would allow it, though you'd still only be able to take one or the other backgrounds and bonus feats. An Eldritch Knight might work well too.
In the novels (didn't read all of them) I don't remember any thing like that. The two organizations were pretty separate, I can't recall even any relations between them. I think you'd need to come up with some kind of backstory to make the pairing make sense.
Afaik, that would be "rule legit" if you got the proper background and requirement for the feats.
About handling the "outstanding" magic user classes or cases (like the situation i pointed out, eldrith knight, spell-thief, etc), I would just handle it by providing somekind of "honorary membership card" to be a registered and legit spellcaster within the order without the whole requirement of being a fulltime member of the order. These membership card would come with some limitation or the FT would get some extra benefits... I'am still thinking about it.
Haven't read the 5e book yet, but in 2e you were expected to seek out the Tower for your trial around 3rd level (I don't recall whether it was when you advanced to 3rd or before advancing to 4th), which means that people are expected to do it once they can cast 2nd level arcane spells. The Towers won't care about 1/2 or 1/3 casters until much later in their careers, because they aren't using powerful enough arcane magic to qualify.
You can definitely seek out the Tower and undergo a trial without having the background. The background represents formal training there,, but you could have gotten your training elsewhere or be self-taught. You could also take the background and then NOT undergo the Trial at the appropriate time, making you a Renegade. If you want to go that route, talk to your DM to get a feel for how strictly the rules are enforced. It's possible that the local enforcers will turn a blind eye so long as you keep a sufficiently low profile (e.g. not dressing in robes or casting anything over 1st level spells in settlements). The Tower is like any other policing organization: it has limited resources, so it has to prioritize which scofflaws to pursue. But the higher level you get and the more well-known you become, the harder it will be for them to ignore you. If you are casting 4th level spells in the market square of a major city, expect a visit from an enforcement squad who will be VERY firm about accompanying you to the Tower immediately.
As for being both a Knight and a member of the Tower, one character can definitely meet the requirements for both. As I recall, the Tower mostly acts as a licensing organization, but doesn't tell it's members what to do on a day-to-day basis. So long as you abide by the Tower's rules, they wouldn't care if you are a Knight of the Crown in your day job.
Starting a SotDQ campaign soon and was looking over the sourcebook again and my reading now is that you only need to pass the Test to not be considered a renegade, but you don't have to join the order.
Many magic-users on Krynn are members of an ancient organization known as the Mages of High Sorcery. Predominantly composed of wizards—with a lesser number of sorcerers, warlocks, and other spellcasters—members are divided into three orders. Each order dedicates itself to virtues extolled by a god of magic and honors the moon its deity is associated with. The three orders cooperate as part of a single organization, overseen by a council of experienced members known as the Conclave.
It seems like an organization for preserving and protecting magic on Krynn, so passing the Test is needed. But you don't have to join if you're not into being one of them.
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My confusion is with the language of the lore and the rules. In the lore section it seems to say that all magic users need to be a member in good standing with the tower, but the rules don't seem to be so strict.
So if I wanted to play a wizard with different feat choices rather than being an "official" member of the Mages, is that allowed?
Looks pretty clear to me. You absolutely can. Though, I feel like you'd be missing out on some unique opportunities by doing so.
The answer to the title question is no.
I don't see where it says you have to. The lore you quoted is riddled with non-absolutes and a clearly defined alternative.
I’d think you could be a member of high sorcery without taking the feats, if that’s what you’re asking. And definitely you can be a wizard without being in high sorcery, if you deal with the consequences of being a renegade. But it seems like a “talk to your DM situation.” There’s official lore in the rule book , which is ambiguous, but in the end, as always, what matters is what your table is doing.
I guess I could clarify a bit. Lore wise could I be a wizard and not a member of the Tower without being considered a renegade? Like could I be an independent contractor who gets licensed by the tower or do I have to join the union to not be considered a renegade?
Lorewise, you have to be a member of the Tower to not be a renegade. But ruleswise, nothing says you need to take the High Sorcery background to be a member of the Tower.
Oh, like that. Well since "renegade" is a concept the Tower created with a very "with us or against us" attitude. So in that sense, no. You are either with them or not.
Of course that doesn't mean every member of the Tower prosecutes renegade mages and some may be willing to work with you. That is completely up to the DM and their narrative.
Lore isn't nearly as black and white as rules (which is already pretty grey).
It sounds to me like you're only a renegade if you leave. If you never join, you're not. But they also try to get you to join as soon as anyone finds out you have magic, so good luck with that.
From what I remember reading the books, anyone who wants to practice magic had to undergo the Test of High Sorcery. But I don't ever remember any arcane magic users that weren't wizards, like sorcerers, warlocks, artificers, Eldritch Knight. And all the representations I can remember the wizards were members of the Tower, wearing the robes and such.
I guess part of me loved the books as a kid and I want to remain true to the world. It seems weird to have a wizard not part of the Tower, but just because non union wizards were never represented in the books doesn't mean they can't exist?
Because when they wrote those books, magic users were the only arcane casters. There were no sorcerers, warlocks, artificers, eldritch knights, etc. in those editions of the game.
That is part of what I'm asking. The rules for the game may have to depart from the cannon to be playable. From my memory anyone who wanted to practice magic had to undergo the Trial early in their career to keep practicing.
If I'm just going off the new sourcebook I'd probably come to the conclusion that being a member is as optional as being a knight of Solamnia is for a martial class. If I'm going by the novels, joining the order is a requisite to practice magic.
Maybe I need to let go of this aspect of the novels and embrace the necessity of changing the strictness for playability? I suppose what I'd really like is some sort of official in depth explanation of the differences. Or a more explicit stating of the Tower's stance on magic use outside the Order.
Well, then it really does come down to your DM. If mages are going to be hunting you for being a renegade, it will be up to your DM to make that happen. So it’s really going to be their call on if they want to do that, and how extensive it will be, or if they just want to ignore it.
I'm sure my DM will allow it. I think its more for my own immersion and appreciation of the world of Dragonlance.
I got the same issue, because I'm watchin the video about the feats and backgrounds and I read the book already (cause why not).
And from my understanding I could be a knight of solamnia and a member of the magic order at the same time IF I got a class like a Valor Bard ??? (yeah breaking the world !!!) -- I have not read all DL novels, but is that situation happened or acceptable ?
I think the rules would allow it, though you'd still only be able to take one or the other backgrounds and bonus feats. An Eldritch Knight might work well too.
In the novels (didn't read all of them) I don't remember any thing like that. The two organizations were pretty separate, I can't recall even any relations between them. I think you'd need to come up with some kind of backstory to make the pairing make sense.
Remember that back when the books were written the only class that used magic other than a mage was a high level ranger so you might go back to see how they were handled. I suspect that they were neither members of the council nor considered renegades but I didn’t read most of the books so very unsure.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There are story implications for not being a member of the order. But that's a character choice between you and your DM.
Mechanically you can do whatever you want.
The only real restriction here is to have the background or the feats presented in the dragonlance campaign, you must be in a dragonlance campaign. But they're not mandatory if you're in the campaign, just additional options. And they're not options if you're not in the campaign.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Afaik, that would be "rule legit" if you got the proper background and requirement for the feats.
About handling the "outstanding" magic user classes or cases (like the situation i pointed out, eldrith knight, spell-thief, etc), I would just handle it by providing somekind of "honorary membership card" to be a registered and legit spellcaster within the order without the whole requirement of being a fulltime member of the order. These membership card would come with some limitation or the FT would get some extra benefits... I'am still thinking about it.
Haven't read the 5e book yet, but in 2e you were expected to seek out the Tower for your trial around 3rd level (I don't recall whether it was when you advanced to 3rd or before advancing to 4th), which means that people are expected to do it once they can cast 2nd level arcane spells. The Towers won't care about 1/2 or 1/3 casters until much later in their careers, because they aren't using powerful enough arcane magic to qualify.
You can definitely seek out the Tower and undergo a trial without having the background. The background represents formal training there,, but you could have gotten your training elsewhere or be self-taught. You could also take the background and then NOT undergo the Trial at the appropriate time, making you a Renegade. If you want to go that route, talk to your DM to get a feel for how strictly the rules are enforced. It's possible that the local enforcers will turn a blind eye so long as you keep a sufficiently low profile (e.g. not dressing in robes or casting anything over 1st level spells in settlements). The Tower is like any other policing organization: it has limited resources, so it has to prioritize which scofflaws to pursue. But the higher level you get and the more well-known you become, the harder it will be for them to ignore you. If you are casting 4th level spells in the market square of a major city, expect a visit from an enforcement squad who will be VERY firm about accompanying you to the Tower immediately.
As for being both a Knight and a member of the Tower, one character can definitely meet the requirements for both. As I recall, the Tower mostly acts as a licensing organization, but doesn't tell it's members what to do on a day-to-day basis. So long as you abide by the Tower's rules, they wouldn't care if you are a Knight of the Crown in your day job.
Starting a SotDQ campaign soon and was looking over the sourcebook again and my reading now is that you only need to pass the Test to not be considered a renegade, but you don't have to join the order.
It seems like an organization for preserving and protecting magic on Krynn, so passing the Test is needed. But you don't have to join if you're not into being one of them.