So I'm planning the knock-down, drag-out showdown for my campaign. An adult green dragon has appeared to the party in disguise and sent them to go fight an adult-or-ancient (still haven't decided) gold dragon, because she can't do it alone.
At a dramatically appropriate moment, the players are going to discover that a) the gold dragon ain't all that bad, and they might not want to kill it, and b) the green dragon is up to no good, and they might want to kill it. So this could play out in several ways:
- The party decides to go ahead with their mission and attack the gold dragon, at which point the green dragon may join in the fray against her nemesis if she feels she has the tactical advantage. - The party changes directions, siding now with the gold dragon and attempting to kill the green; the gold will likely join in defeating the foe. - Those in the party with ties to the balor behind the sealed passage may succeed in freeing him, and he might join in the fray as he's promised to do.
tl;dr: How can I figure out what effect having a monster ally would have on a party's chance of success against another opponent? Is there a way to make sensible predictions/preparations about this, or should I just toss it all in the blender and see what comes out?
If the monsters are of the same CR, chances are the dice will decide who win, which might not be what you want. If it is adult green vs ancient gold, ancient gold is most likely going to win (a difference of 9 in CR is simply too much). So if the players really want to take on the Gold with help of the Green, that's probably fine if they're high enough level. If I'm correct, according to Xanathar's Guide monster tables for encounter building, a CR 15 monster (the green dragon) is approximately the same as 3 lv 20 characters (or at least, they should be a fair match) so that might help. If they're an other level you might look up the table to see how many characters it is equivalent to at average character level.
Personally, I would let the Balor break his word but immediately set off to do other things. 1 that makes a great enemy for a later story and 2 they're chaotic evil. Unless you've got a reason in your setting which makes them uphold their word, demons are notoriously untrustworthy. That's more of a devil's deal; if you free me I'll help you in a single battle... And then the next battle he'll turn the tides but he'll keep his word :P
Hey, thanks for the advice! I hadn't thought of looking at the Xanathar's charts. Those rough comparisons can help me plug some ballpark numbers into encounter calculators.
So it looks like if the players (Which should be around LVL 8 by then) stick with their plan and team up with the adult green dragon, it should be doable. And if they turn and side with the ancient gold dragon, it should be even easier. You're right that the balor will likely bail (see what I did there?) at the first opportunity, but he may cause some damage as he rampages his way to freedom, which may soften up some monsters and/or PCs or otherwise affect the encounter.
Hi all!
So I'm planning the knock-down, drag-out showdown for my campaign. An adult green dragon has appeared to the party in disguise and sent them to go fight an adult-or-ancient (still haven't decided) gold dragon, because she can't do it alone.
At a dramatically appropriate moment, the players are going to discover that a) the gold dragon ain't all that bad, and they might not want to kill it, and b) the green dragon is up to no good, and they might want to kill it. So this could play out in several ways:
- The party decides to go ahead with their mission and attack the gold dragon, at which point the green dragon may join in the fray against her nemesis if she feels she has the tactical advantage.
- The party changes directions, siding now with the gold dragon and attempting to kill the green; the gold will likely join in defeating the foe.
- Those in the party with ties to the balor behind the sealed passage may succeed in freeing him, and he might join in the fray as he's promised to do.
tl;dr: How can I figure out what effect having a monster ally would have on a party's chance of success against another opponent? Is there a way to make sensible predictions/preparations about this, or should I just toss it all in the blender and see what comes out?
If the monsters are of the same CR, chances are the dice will decide who win, which might not be what you want. If it is adult green vs ancient gold, ancient gold is most likely going to win (a difference of 9 in CR is simply too much). So if the players really want to take on the Gold with help of the Green, that's probably fine if they're high enough level. If I'm correct, according to Xanathar's Guide monster tables for encounter building, a CR 15 monster (the green dragon) is approximately the same as 3 lv 20 characters (or at least, they should be a fair match) so that might help. If they're an other level you might look up the table to see how many characters it is equivalent to at average character level.
Personally, I would let the Balor break his word but immediately set off to do other things. 1 that makes a great enemy for a later story and 2 they're chaotic evil. Unless you've got a reason in your setting which makes them uphold their word, demons are notoriously untrustworthy. That's more of a devil's deal; if you free me I'll help you in a single battle... And then the next battle he'll turn the tides but he'll keep his word :P
Hop this helps :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Hey, thanks for the advice! I hadn't thought of looking at the Xanathar's charts. Those rough comparisons can help me plug some ballpark numbers into encounter calculators.
So it looks like if the players (Which should be around LVL 8 by then) stick with their plan and team up with the adult green dragon, it should be doable. And if they turn and side with the ancient gold dragon, it should be even easier. You're right that the balor will likely bail (see what I did there?) at the first opportunity, but he may cause some damage as he rampages his way to freedom, which may soften up some monsters and/or PCs or otherwise affect the encounter.