Player is a Divination Wizard with the Background, Gambler. They want to be able to not have to waste a bunch of magic on a card game and asked me if the Feat, Keen Mind, would allow them to count cards.
To be more specific, they asked it would help them track card positions and then work out the likelihood of either themselves or their opponent getting the better hand so they can essentially be more like a real gambler while playing their character and also the aforementioned not wasting spells/other magical effects on card games and save them for things that they seem more appropriate for. Like emergencies, or combat, or escape from combat.
I for one find this rather intriguing and have considered simply letting them do it cause "Rule of Cool" exists, but I did want to get a general idea of what the community of DM's thought about the idea.
It depends on what kind of game. I would say they could definitely count cards, but counting cards is only helpful in blackjack when playing against the house as it makes the dealer (who has to play by certain rules and doesn't choose when to hit or stay) more likely to bust. The same method helps in PvP blackjack, but is less reliable.
A photographic memory (which keen mind basically is, but counting cards is much simpler) could go a long way to help in Texas hold'em.
Five card draw would have too many unknowns at any given time to really be helpful.
And those are all the poker types I know the rules for. But for these kinds of games within games you mostly just roll a few contested skill/tool checks.
You have a mind that can track time, direction, and detail with uncanny precision. You gain the following benefits.
Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You always know which way is north.
You always know the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset.
You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month."
I interpret "You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month" to mean exactly that. The character effectively has a photographic memory for anything they have seen or heard in the last month. During a card game the character would know every card that has been played, every card that has gone by. They wouldn't just be able to count cards they would be able to tell you exactly how many 10's they have seen and which ones they were.
If the character is a wizard with a naturally high intelligence, I think it would be trivial to count cards in this circumstance. However, knowing what the card count itself means or knowing exactly which cards have been shown is not the same as knowing the odds of drawing to an inside straight since that requires some deductive reasoning in addition to the knowledge of the cards provided by keen mind. In this case though, the character is also a wizard with high intelligence and a likely strong ability to reason logically so I would not hesitate to allow the character to be an exceptional gambler who is very aware of the cards in play and the odds for or against his current hand. (In addition, the player could justify taking the feat as the character having trained his mind to pay attention to every detail so that he could have an edge when gambling, it just caries over into everything else he does).
Another thing I didn't mention. Knowing what cards are in the deck doesn't make you a good gambler. You also need to be able to know when to win and lose so as to avoid suspicion/aggression and be able to genuinely fake surprise/excitement when you win.
No body likes when 1 person wins too much. Not the casino and not the other players. So charisma and insight will be needed too.
Casinos get around card counting by using several decks of cards and reshuffling before going all the way through the deck. The advantage that card counting offers becomes so small that it isn't really worth the effort.
I'd suggest giving them a minor bonus against formal gambling encounters (casinos, large payouts) and a major bonus against informal encounters (tavern, small payouts). Let them have fun, without just handing them free money.
Casinos get around card counting by using several decks of cards and reshuffling before going all the way through the deck. The advantage that card counting offers becomes so small that it isn't really worth the effort.
I'd suggest giving them a minor bonus against formal gambling encounters (casinos, large payouts) and a major bonus against informal encounters (tavern, small payouts). Let them have fun, without just handing them free money.
Yes, shuffling will break any benefit from Keen Mind.
The PC has three things going for it. Gambler back ground, Keen Mind, and Rule of Cool. As Memnosyne said let them auto win small payouts. For large ones. Have the player roll a d6 on a 5-6, they have advantage on roll to decide the winner. OR in one my older games, I gave the player two hands and he could build his starting hand from them. Now does the casino or house take exception to this is another matter.
It seems to me that counting games can include games such as online poker or casino. If that's the case, then I've been playing these games for a very long time. Online casino right here has a great effect on brain activity. Of course, sometimes there are very tense moments, but they are worth the final win at the end of the game.
Card counting in a casino is a gambling strategy, especially blackjack. But, for successful counting, you need to be able to use different skills. Again, there are different methods of counting. Concentration and memory should also be very well developed. It's technically very difficult, actually. It takes a lot of practice as well. I'm a player myself and I've tried it, it's hard. Here is the site where new online casinos in Australia 2023 are collected https://auspokiesguide.com/best-casinos/new/ this is a list of the best casinos. There you can practice and try. But it is better to learn some kind of card counting system.
I'd just do away with all the theory, and deal the cards. As in, if it's poker, deal a number of hands - the player get's their own hand, all revealed cards, and makes their decisions based on that. Basically, 'here's what your character knows' - now bet.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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Player is a Divination Wizard with the Background, Gambler. They want to be able to not have to waste a bunch of magic on a card game and asked me if the Feat, Keen Mind, would allow them to count cards.
To be more specific, they asked it would help them track card positions and then work out the likelihood of either themselves or their opponent getting the better hand so they can essentially be more like a real gambler while playing their character and also the aforementioned not wasting spells/other magical effects on card games and save them for things that they seem more appropriate for. Like emergencies, or combat, or escape from combat.
I for one find this rather intriguing and have considered simply letting them do it cause "Rule of Cool" exists, but I did want to get a general idea of what the community of DM's thought about the idea.
Thoughts?
It depends on what kind of game. I would say they could definitely count cards, but counting cards is only helpful in blackjack when playing against the house as it makes the dealer (who has to play by certain rules and doesn't choose when to hit or stay) more likely to bust. The same method helps in PvP blackjack, but is less reliable.
A photographic memory (which keen mind basically is, but counting cards is much simpler) could go a long way to help in Texas hold'em.
Five card draw would have too many unknowns at any given time to really be helpful.
And those are all the poker types I know the rules for. But for these kinds of games within games you mostly just roll a few contested skill/tool checks.
Here is the text of keen mind.
"Keen Mind
You have a mind that can track time, direction, and detail with uncanny precision. You gain the following benefits.
I interpret "You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month" to mean exactly that. The character effectively has a photographic memory for anything they have seen or heard in the last month. During a card game the character would know every card that has been played, every card that has gone by. They wouldn't just be able to count cards they would be able to tell you exactly how many 10's they have seen and which ones they were.
If the character is a wizard with a naturally high intelligence, I think it would be trivial to count cards in this circumstance. However, knowing what the card count itself means or knowing exactly which cards have been shown is not the same as knowing the odds of drawing to an inside straight since that requires some deductive reasoning in addition to the knowledge of the cards provided by keen mind. In this case though, the character is also a wizard with high intelligence and a likely strong ability to reason logically so I would not hesitate to allow the character to be an exceptional gambler who is very aware of the cards in play and the odds for or against his current hand. (In addition, the player could justify taking the feat as the character having trained his mind to pay attention to every detail so that he could have an edge when gambling, it just caries over into everything else he does).
Another thing I didn't mention. Knowing what cards are in the deck doesn't make you a good gambler. You also need to be able to know when to win and lose so as to avoid suspicion/aggression and be able to genuinely fake surprise/excitement when you win.
No body likes when 1 person wins too much. Not the casino and not the other players. So charisma and insight will be needed too.
Thanks for all the assistance folks. I will be making some notes and talking to the player further about it.
You have all been most helpful.
It depends, if you play each hand individual, i would allow them advantage on the last roll ( doesn‘t matter if you roll d6, d20 or anything else).
If you roll a d20 +proficency +mod to simulate an evening of card gambling, i would allow them to use expertise.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]Casinos get around card counting by using several decks of cards and reshuffling before going all the way through the deck. The advantage that card counting offers becomes so small that it isn't really worth the effort.
I'd suggest giving them a minor bonus against formal gambling encounters (casinos, large payouts) and a major bonus against informal encounters (tavern, small payouts). Let them have fun, without just handing them free money.
Yes, shuffling will break any benefit from Keen Mind.
The PC has three things going for it. Gambler back ground, Keen Mind, and Rule of Cool. As Memnosyne said let them auto win small payouts. For large ones. Have the player roll a d6 on a 5-6, they have advantage on roll to decide the winner. OR in one my older games, I gave the player two hands and he could build his starting hand from them. Now does the casino or house take exception to this is another matter.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Indeed :-)
As soon as you start winning consistently you are escorted outside and never invited back.
It seems to me that counting games can include games such as online poker or casino. If that's the case, then I've been playing these games for a very long time. Online casino right here has a great effect on brain activity. Of course, sometimes there are very tense moments, but they are worth the final win at the end of the game.
Card counting in a casino is a gambling strategy, especially blackjack. But, for successful counting, you need to be able to use different skills. Again, there are different methods of counting. Concentration and memory should also be very well developed. It's technically very difficult, actually. It takes a lot of practice as well. I'm a player myself and I've tried it, it's hard. Here is the site where new online casinos in Australia 2023 are collected https://auspokiesguide.com/best-casinos/new/ this is a list of the best casinos. There you can practice and try. But it is better to learn some kind of card counting system.
I'd just do away with all the theory, and deal the cards. As in, if it's poker, deal a number of hands - the player get's their own hand, all revealed cards, and makes their decisions based on that. Basically, 'here's what your character knows' - now bet.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.