DM here with a nagging question re: the swashbuckling rogue in my party. If a player misses with the primary attack can the bonus action secondary attack still add sneak attack damage if it hits?
On the one hand (no pun intended) if the action and bonus are considered to essentially happen within seconds of each other than that makes sense to me. And most of the forums I've seen seem to confirm this. But most of the other rules I've seen seem to try and avoid adding bonus damage to the off hand. And it seems a bit overpowered to give the rogue 2 chances sneak attack damage every turn. So from that perspective it would make sense to me the sneak attack bonus is only a main weapon feature.
Thoughts? Theories? Errata I may have missed in my searches?
That the two-weapon fighting rules have the off-hand attack not add ability modifier to the damage roll is irrelevant as to whether or not other bonus are added. That one thing not applying is the exception, not the rule.
You can only apply sneak attack damage once per turn, but it can be on any attack you make ("to one creature you hit with an attack"). This is one reason to use an offhand weapon as a Rogue, and it's not like they have anything else to use the offhand for. Not overpowered at all - you can still only sneak attack once per turn.
As mentioned above, the wording is pretty clear. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll."
The conditions for the extra damage are "hit" and "have advantage on the attack roll" (and later on the "ally near, no disadvantage" alternative condition is added). So you need to actually land a hit before you even decide if you will use Sneak Attack.
This is similar to other classes and their features, like the Paladin's Smite or the Monk's Stunning Fi Strike. They confirm the hit before deciding if they will use it or not.
Compare and contrast with, say, the Battlemaster's Riposte:
"When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to make a melee weapon attack against the creature. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll."
You commit to the Riposte if your opponent misses, but the extra damage is wasted if your attack misses.
...I had some trouble finding examples to the contrary, such as the Riposte. 5th edition is pretty big on confirming hits before wasting ability usage.
Attack with the off-hand (bonus action) during her turn (and get sneak damage)
Use her regular action to Ready an action (to attack during someone else's turn)
Attack during someone else turn, gaining sneak damage yet again
No, you can only use your bonus action for two-weapon fighting after taking the Attack action to attack with your main action. The Ready action won't work.
You can still sneak attack on another's turn with the Ready action, or with attacks of opportunity.
Attack with the off-hand (bonus action) during her turn (and get sneak damage)
Use her regular action to Ready an action (to attack during someone else's turn)
Attack during someone else turn, gaining sneak damage yet again
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. ~ PHB page 195
The Ready action is different than the Attack action (even if they have the same end result: roll an attack roll -> deal weapon damage). You don't "have" a bonus action. Different things grant you said bonus actions (such as casting a spell with a casting time of "bonus action".
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
you lose out completely on cunning action if you use an off hand correct? you only get one bonus action...
If you attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action, you can’t use your cunning action that turn, correct. But only if you actually attack with it.
you lose out completely on cunning action if you use an off hand correct? you only get one bonus action...
If you attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action, you can’t use your cunning action that turn, correct. But only if you actually attack with it.
There are many things you can do with bonus actions. You only get 1 though.
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
As mentioned above, the wording is pretty clear. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll."
The conditions for the extra damage are "hit" and "have advantage on the attack roll"
As mentioned above, the wording is pretty clear. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll."
The conditions for the extra damage are "hit" and "have advantage on the attack roll"
Attack with the off-hand (bonus action) during her turn (and get sneak damage)
Use her regular action to Ready an action (to attack during someone else's turn)
Attack during someone else turn, gaining sneak damage yet again
To accomplish what you're wanting to do, you'd have to have at least 3 levels of Path of the Berserker Barbarian. The Frenzied Rage allows you to make a Bonus Action attack with your main weapon, then use your Action to ready an Attack to occur on someone else's turn, thus giving you your Sneak Attack damage twice per round. But be warned, you take one level of Exhaustion after the Frenzied Rage ends, so you'd want to save this tactic for boss fights.
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. "
Seems like you need to make an attack with your Action first.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Not forgetting anything at all. This entire discussion has already occurred previously in this thread, it simply requires scrolling up and actually reading the posts. The attack with the main hand could miss or the player could choose not to apply sneak attack to their main hand attack, thus allowing sneak attack with the off hand as long as the above conditions are met. The point is, whether or not you are targeting the same creature is not one of the conditions. Therefore, you can attack a different creature with the off hand and still apply sneak attack.
This is significant -- there are plenty of times when you won't want to move away from the first creature and take an opportunity attack but that first creature has almost no hit points remaining, so you kill the first creature without applying sneak attack, then you use your movement to approach the 2nd creature, then you make the off hand attack and apply the sneak attack damage to that.
Not forgetting anything at all. This entire discussion has already occurred previously in this thread, it simply requires scrolling up and actually reading the posts. The attack with the main hand could miss or the player could choose not to apply sneak attack to their main hand attack, thus allowing sneak attack with the off hand as long as the above conditions are met. The point is, whether or not you are targeting the same creature is not one of the conditions. Therefore, you can attack a different creature with the off hand and still apply sneak attack.
This is significant -- there are plenty of times when you won't want to move away from the first creature and take an opportunity attack but that first creature has almost no hit points remaining, so you kill the first creature without applying sneak attack, then you use your movement to approach the 2nd creature, then you make the off hand attack and apply the sneak attack damage to that.
I think you misunderstood the question you were answering. The way I (and Fangeye, it seems) understood it, they were asking if the second creature being a different target would allow them to get a second sneak attack. The answer to that question is "no."
Ah, I see. Yes I agree with that answer of course. That portion of the sneak attack description seems very unambiguous to me. I guess it didn't cross my mind that someone could read "Once per turn, you can deal extra damage to one creature" and then ask "so does that mean i can do extra damage to one creature and then also extra damage to another creature?", but I suppose it's possible. After all, the question might have come from a bot.
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DM here with a nagging question re: the swashbuckling rogue in my party. If a player misses with the primary attack can the bonus action secondary attack still add sneak attack damage if it hits?
On the one hand (no pun intended) if the action and bonus are considered to essentially happen within seconds of each other than that makes sense to me. And most of the forums I've seen seem to confirm this. But most of the other rules I've seen seem to try and avoid adding bonus damage to the off hand. And it seems a bit overpowered to give the rogue 2 chances sneak attack damage every turn. So from that perspective it would make sense to me the sneak attack bonus is only a main weapon feature.
Thoughts? Theories? Errata I may have missed in my searches?
Thanks in advance!
Two chances is absolutely the rules as written.
That the two-weapon fighting rules have the off-hand attack not add ability modifier to the damage roll is irrelevant as to whether or not other bonus are added. That one thing not applying is the exception, not the rule.
You can only apply sneak attack damage once per turn, but it can be on any attack you make ("to one creature you hit with an attack"). This is one reason to use an offhand weapon as a Rogue, and it's not like they have anything else to use the offhand for. Not overpowered at all - you can still only sneak attack once per turn.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
As mentioned above, the wording is pretty clear. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll."
The conditions for the extra damage are "hit" and "have advantage on the attack roll" (and later on the "ally near, no disadvantage" alternative condition is added). So you need to actually land a hit before you even decide if you will use Sneak Attack.
This is similar to other classes and their features, like the Paladin's Smite or the Monk's Stunning
FiStrike. They confirm the hit before deciding if they will use it or not.Compare and contrast with, say, the Battlemaster's Riposte:
"When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to make a melee weapon attack against the creature. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll."
You commit to the Riposte if your opponent misses, but the extra damage is wasted if your attack misses.
...I had some trouble finding examples to the contrary, such as the Riposte. 5th edition is pretty big on confirming hits before wasting ability usage.
Sounds good. Thanks all. I was just a bit paranoid about running into trouble as he levels :-)
fwiw - I believe a clever player could:
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
The Ready action is different than the Attack action (even if they have the same end result: roll an attack roll -> deal weapon damage). You don't "have" a bonus action. Different things grant you said bonus actions (such as casting a spell with a casting time of "bonus action".
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
you lose out completely on cunning action if you use an off hand correct? you only get one bonus action...
If you attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action, you can’t use your cunning action that turn, correct. But only if you actually attack with it.
There are many things you can do with bonus actions. You only get 1 though.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Question: if you attack a second creature with the off hand attack, since it is a different target, can you apply sneak attack to that attack?
I think that this was already answered above but yes this is allowed:
You are forgetting the condition "Once per turn".
To accomplish what you're wanting to do, you'd have to have at least 3 levels of Path of the Berserker Barbarian. The Frenzied Rage allows you to make a Bonus Action attack with your main weapon, then use your Action to ready an Attack to occur on someone else's turn, thus giving you your Sneak Attack damage twice per round. But be warned, you take one level of Exhaustion after the Frenzied Rage ends, so you'd want to save this tactic for boss fights.
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. "
Seems like you need to make an attack with your Action first.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Not forgetting anything at all. This entire discussion has already occurred previously in this thread, it simply requires scrolling up and actually reading the posts. The attack with the main hand could miss or the player could choose not to apply sneak attack to their main hand attack, thus allowing sneak attack with the off hand as long as the above conditions are met. The point is, whether or not you are targeting the same creature is not one of the conditions. Therefore, you can attack a different creature with the off hand and still apply sneak attack.
This is significant -- there are plenty of times when you won't want to move away from the first creature and take an opportunity attack but that first creature has almost no hit points remaining, so you kill the first creature without applying sneak attack, then you use your movement to approach the 2nd creature, then you make the off hand attack and apply the sneak attack damage to that.
I think you misunderstood the question you were answering. The way I (and Fangeye, it seems) understood it, they were asking if the second creature being a different target would allow them to get a second sneak attack. The answer to that question is "no."
Ah, I see. Yes I agree with that answer of course. That portion of the sneak attack description seems very unambiguous to me. I guess it didn't cross my mind that someone could read "Once per turn, you can deal extra damage to one creature" and then ask "so does that mean i can do extra damage to one creature and then also extra damage to another creature?", but I suppose it's possible. After all, the question might have come from a bot.