So Spirit Shroud states that any attack you make against a creature within 10 ft takes extra 1d8 damage. Steel Wind Strike says that you "vanish" and make a melee spell attack against up to 5 creatures within 30 ft, dealing 6d10 force damage and then teleport within 5 ft of one of the targets.
Now since Spirit Shroud is centered on you, and you are making melee attacks against targets with SWS, do your targets take the additional damage from Spirit Shroud even though they are more than 10 ft from where you originally were? Steel Wind Strike is just weirdly worded. Doesn't a melee spell attack mean you have to be within melee range to make it?
The description of the spell seems like this is meant to be a Quicksilver/Flash type ability where you move faster than sight to attack your targets. The mechanics though say “vanish” and then says “teleport”. So I’d say the shroud only works on any enemy within 10 feet of the original location
others could rule that, since you aren’t definitely anywhere, none of the attacks get the bonus damage. But, I’d say that since the interaction takes 2 rounds to accomplish and uses at least a 3rd and a 5th level slot, I don’t minds a ruling that all the attacks in the 10 foot range of original position get the damage (basically upcasting SWS for the price of a 3rd level slot)
melee spell attacks aren’t necessarily constrained by range other than the spells listed range (see thorn whip ) so that by itself is not a reason to say that you are closer than 10 fee to a target, but because the spells requires you to flourish a melee weapon used in the casting (as a M component) you could arguably say that the attacks are made with the weapon (magically enhanced by the spell) and that you are within 10 feet at the instant of each attack roll due to this...but that’s reading a lot into the spell description and purely in the realm of DMs Call
I agree with Icon. I'm sure the flavor of the spell is that you are smacking the targets yourself as you bolt around unseen, but that is not in the mechanics.
The mechanics of these 2 effects would likely only overlap within 10 feet of your starting position. Some DMs may not even allow that, "because you vanished."
Alright I see what you're saying. For context, I'm building an Aasimar Swords Bard and I took Spirit Shroud and Steel Wind Strike with Magical Secrets since I'm playing to the DPS/Debuff role in the party. The idea didn't occur to me until after I picked those spells. So it seemed like a neat super move I'd get a second opinion on.
Alright I see what you're saying. For context, I'm building an Aasimar Swords Bard and I took Spirit Shroud and Steel Wind Strike with Magical Secrets since I'm playing to the DPS/Debuff role in the party. The idea didn't occur to me until after I picked those spells. So it seemed like a neat super move I'd get a second opinion on.
I mean, don't be afraid to talk to your DM! They may allow "full" use of the combo as a houserule or ruling. I don't think the combo is gamebreaking even if fully allowed (it's basically upcasting for the price of a 3rd+ level spell slot and takes 2 turns to set up since SS is a bonus action and SWS is a leveled spell and you can't use both in the same turn), and it fits the flavor. Its just the mechanics and the flavor don't really line up so the question remains.
Even if it only applies within 10 feet of starting, in the right situation it could be devastating to a mob/group.
You flourish the weapon used in the casting and then vanish to strike like the wind. Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 force damage.
You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.
Distant Strike
At 11th level, you gain the ability to pass between the planes in the blink of an eye. When you take the Attack action, you can teleport up to 10 feet before each attack to an unoccupied space you can see.
But while Distant Strike is explicit that you teleport for each attack, Steel Wind Strike only mentions teleporting once, after all the attacks are completed... so by default one would assume you're either in your original square making melee attacks at range, or you're in no square while those attacks are being made. If that doesn't match the narrative flow of how your DM understands the spell, and if you have a permissive DM who is willing to read mechanical significance to the wording of spell descriptions, you very well might get them to agree that you're implied to be teleporting in between each attack. This might have other unintended consequences however... needing to have actual open squares to teleport to, the possibility of enemies interrupting your attacks once you enter threatened squares, etc. But I wouldn't count on the DM letting you physically move between attacks, it's definitely out on the limb and crossing into houserule territory.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Counter argument, spiritual weapon also has you make melee spell attacks of targets up to 60 ft from you without you disappearing or otherwise physically being near the target.
"Melee attack" is not an indicator of distance from target.
Spiritual weapon specifically states that you create a "floating spectral weapon" that you can control from a distance similar to a dancing weapon. The weapon is still in melee with a creature when you use it. Steel wind strike does give any indication that the weapon your using leaves your hands to attack from afar.
Further more; " You flourish the weapon( must be a melee weapon) used in the casting and then vanish to STRIKE like the wind." To strike or hit, in melee with the weapon.
So Spirit Shroud states that any attack you make against a creature within 10 ft takes extra 1d8 damage. Steel Wind Strike says that you "vanish" and make a melee spell attack against up to 5 creatures within 30 ft, dealing 6d10 force damage and then teleport within 5 ft of one of the targets.
Now since Spirit Shroud is centered on you, and you are making melee attacks against targets with SWS, do your targets take the additional damage from Spirit Shroud even though they are more than 10 ft from where you originally were? Steel Wind Strike is just weirdly worded. Doesn't a melee spell attack mean you have to be within melee range to make it?
SWS is instantaneous and therefore only the targets within 10 feet of you at the moment of casting it will take SS extra damage. Those within 11 - 30 feet won't.
Spiritual weapon specifically states that you create a "floating spectral weapon" that you can control from a distance similar to a dancing weapon. The weapon is still in melee with a creature when you use it. Steel wind strike does give any indication that the weapon your using leaves your hands to attack from afar.
Further more; " You flourish the weapon( must be a melee weapon) used in the casting and then vanish to STRIKE like the wind." To strike or hit, in melee with the weapon.
Then consider thorn whip...30 foot range, melee spell attack. The fact is, other spells exist with melee spell attacks from greater than standard melee range, so it is impossible to infer the intent for this spell regarding your “position” when the attack is made, either from the spell or from other melee spell attack spells, except that of your starting position and your ending position (after all attacks have already occurred)
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Personally I think a conversation about thorn whip is a bit of a moot point, in the spells description, it states " You Create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range." it explains that you create a weapon with a reach of 30 feet. The mechanics are just like any weapon with reach, only your reaching out and striking a target with a reach of 30 feet. It also describes how the attack is done.
In contrast, the spell Ice Knife states that "You create a shard of ice and FLING it at on creature within range."
Again, as a DM i would lean toward the player. The wording is clear. Its not going to break the game players can have fun with it. I envision SWS as one of those ninja moves from Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
I could see where your coming from with this although all that spell attack means is you use your spell casting mod as apposed to STR or DEX. Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do. And like ive stated before, if i was unsure i would give it to the player and i can adapt as the DM.
Side note: I have noticed that 5e ppl really dont like letting players stack spells and abilities to do more damage despite the wording. In 3.5 and Pathfinder you could stack all kinds of spells and abilities thats what it was all about.
As long as you have cast Spirit Shroud one or more rounds before you cast your Steel Wind Strike, and have maintained Concentration, you get the extra damage.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
Steel wind strikes description never says you strike with the weapon. A flourish is just moving an object around in an exaggerated or dramatic fashion. It does say you strike, but doesn’t say you strike with the weapon. This was written in this way on purpose so as to not allow smites or sneak attacks and things like that with multiclassing. Also was done to prevent the majority of outright damage buffs in the game. There had to be a balance struck between its ability to attack multiple creatures in a way that is similar to an AOE, but account for the multitude of ways attacks can be boosted by various features.
steel wind strike gives the ability to make a melee spell attack at a range of 30 feet without actually moving, unless you choose to at the end. Spirit shroud wouldn’t come into play unless those targets were within that 10ft distance. Greater invisibility is probably a better spell to cast anyways. Advantage is going to be more effective, and it drastically increases your DPR. Spirit shroud would give a general DPR increase of about 136.5 damage if assuming a 60% accuracy. Greater invisibility would increase DPR to 154.7 damage using the same damage situation but going for advantage vs extra dice. Greater invisibility would allow you to teleport to a creature you hit and move away without provoking an attack of opportunity too.
Elven accuracy would further increase that DPR to about 178 damage per round. it’s much easier to gain advantage on your own attack rolls than it is to impose disadvantage on a group of creatures saving throws. Steel wind strike also has the ability to crit, something that AOEs that target saves can’t do.
spell sniper would extend the distance you could attack creatures to 60 feet which could also increase the range you could teleport.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do.
Can you quote where does it state that in the spell exactly?
Steel wind strikes description never says you strike with the weapon. A flourish is just moving an object around in an exaggerated or dramatic fashion. It does say you strike, but doesn’t say you strike with the weapon. This was written in this way on purpose so as to not allow smites or sneak attacks and things like that with multiclassing. Also was done to prevent the majority of outright damage buffs in the game. There had to be a balance struck between its ability to attack multiple creatures in a way that is similar to an AOE, but account for the multitude of ways attacks can be boosted by various features.
steel wind strike gives the ability to make a melee spell attack at a range of 30 feet without actually moving, unless you choose to at the end. Spirit shroud wouldn’t come into play unless those targets were within that 10ft distance. Greater invisibility is probably a better spell to cast anyways. Advantage is going to be more effective, and it drastically increases your DPR. Spirit shroud would give a general DPR increase of about 136.5 damage if assuming a 60% accuracy. Greater invisibility would increase DPR to 154.7 damage using the same damage situation but going for advantage vs extra dice. Greater invisibility would allow you to teleport to a creature you hit and move away without provoking an attack of opportunity too.
Elven accuracy would further increase that DPR to about 178 damage per round. it’s much easier to gain advantage on your own attack rolls than it is to impose disadvantage on a group of creatures saving throws. Steel wind strike also has the ability to crit, something that AOEs that target saves can’t do.
spell sniper would extend the distance you could attack creatures to 60 feet which could also increase the range you could teleport.
The question then would be what are you attacking with then if not the weapon that is in the requirement of the spell. If you where to swing the blade around and shoot magic slashes at the target then it would be a RANGED spell attack not MELEE. Also the wording is not used to prevent stuff like sneak attack as you cant use sneak attack with a spell unless it specifically states that you can, like booming blade.
Also you contradicted your self. The spell LITERALLY says "... to STRIKE like the wind."
Bouncing the numbers is nice but at the end of the day its just an extra 1-3d8 dmg. Again... not going to break the game. If a player is trying to mid-max there is easyer and more powerful ways to do it.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do.
Can you quote where does it state that in the spell exactly?
Can you show me where it states that the player doesn't move? I think thats the real question. Ive already pointed these points out and i could keep going but i see nothing to indicate that the caster doesnt move.
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So Spirit Shroud states that any attack you make against a creature within 10 ft takes extra 1d8 damage. Steel Wind Strike says that you "vanish" and make a melee spell attack against up to 5 creatures within 30 ft, dealing 6d10 force damage and then teleport within 5 ft of one of the targets.
Now since Spirit Shroud is centered on you, and you are making melee attacks against targets with SWS, do your targets take the additional damage from Spirit Shroud even though they are more than 10 ft from where you originally were? Steel Wind Strike is just weirdly worded. Doesn't a melee spell attack mean you have to be within melee range to make it?
The description of the spell seems like this is meant to be a Quicksilver/Flash type ability where you move faster than sight to attack your targets. The mechanics though say “vanish” and then says “teleport”. So I’d say the shroud only works on any enemy within 10 feet of the original location
others could rule that, since you aren’t definitely anywhere, none of the attacks get the bonus damage. But, I’d say that since the interaction takes 2 rounds to accomplish and uses at least a 3rd and a 5th level slot, I don’t minds a ruling that all the attacks in the 10 foot range of original position get the damage (basically upcasting SWS for the price of a 3rd level slot)
melee spell attacks aren’t necessarily constrained by range other than the spells listed range (see thorn whip ) so that by itself is not a reason to say that you are closer than 10 fee to a target, but because the spells requires you to flourish a melee weapon used in the casting (as a M component) you could arguably say that the attacks are made with the weapon (magically enhanced by the spell) and that you are within 10 feet at the instant of each attack roll due to this...but that’s reading a lot into the spell description and purely in the realm of DMs Call
Edit: reread SWS, changed my response
I agree with Icon. I'm sure the flavor of the spell is that you are smacking the targets yourself as you bolt around unseen, but that is not in the mechanics.
The mechanics of these 2 effects would likely only overlap within 10 feet of your starting position. Some DMs may not even allow that, "because you vanished."
Alright I see what you're saying. For context, I'm building an Aasimar Swords Bard and I took Spirit Shroud and Steel Wind Strike with Magical Secrets since I'm playing to the DPS/Debuff role in the party. The idea didn't occur to me until after I picked those spells. So it seemed like a neat super move I'd get a second opinion on.
I mean, don't be afraid to talk to your DM! They may allow "full" use of the combo as a houserule or ruling. I don't think the combo is gamebreaking even if fully allowed (it's basically upcasting for the price of a 3rd+ level spell slot and takes 2 turns to set up since SS is a bonus action and SWS is a leveled spell and you can't use both in the same turn), and it fits the flavor. Its just the mechanics and the flavor don't really line up so the question remains.
Even if it only applies within 10 feet of starting, in the right situation it could be devastating to a mob/group.
Steel Wind Strike narratively is doing the same thing that a Planar Warrior's Distant Strike is doing.
But while Distant Strike is explicit that you teleport for each attack, Steel Wind Strike only mentions teleporting once, after all the attacks are completed... so by default one would assume you're either in your original square making melee attacks at range, or you're in no square while those attacks are being made. If that doesn't match the narrative flow of how your DM understands the spell, and if you have a permissive DM who is willing to read mechanical significance to the wording of spell descriptions, you very well might get them to agree that you're implied to be teleporting in between each attack. This might have other unintended consequences however... needing to have actual open squares to teleport to, the possibility of enemies interrupting your attacks once you enter threatened squares, etc. But I wouldn't count on the DM letting you physically move between attacks, it's definitely out on the limb and crossing into houserule territory.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Counter argument, spiritual weapon also has you make melee spell attacks of targets up to 60 ft from you without you disappearing or otherwise physically being near the target.
"Melee attack" is not an indicator of distance from target.
Spiritual weapon specifically states that you create a "floating spectral weapon" that you can control from a distance similar to a dancing weapon. The weapon is still in melee with a creature when you use it. Steel wind strike does give any indication that the weapon your using leaves your hands to attack from afar.
Further more; " You flourish the weapon( must be a melee weapon) used in the casting and then vanish to STRIKE like the wind." To strike or hit, in melee with the weapon.
SWS is instantaneous and therefore only the targets within 10 feet of you at the moment of casting it will take SS extra damage. Those within 11 - 30 feet won't.
Then consider thorn whip...30 foot range, melee spell attack. The fact is, other spells exist with melee spell attacks from greater than standard melee range, so it is impossible to infer the intent for this spell regarding your “position” when the attack is made, either from the spell or from other melee spell attack spells, except that of your starting position and your ending position (after all attacks have already occurred)
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Personally I think a conversation about thorn whip is a bit of a moot point, in the spells description, it states " You Create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range." it explains that you create a weapon with a reach of 30 feet. The mechanics are just like any weapon with reach, only your reaching out and striking a target with a reach of 30 feet. It also describes how the attack is done.
In contrast, the spell Ice Knife states that "You create a shard of ice and FLING it at on creature within range."
Again, as a DM i would lean toward the player. The wording is clear. Its not going to break the game players can have fun with it. I envision SWS as one of those ninja moves from Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.
I could see where your coming from with this although all that spell attack means is you use your spell casting mod as apposed to STR or DEX. Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do. And like ive stated before, if i was unsure i would give it to the player and i can adapt as the DM.
Side note: I have noticed that 5e ppl really dont like letting players stack spells and abilities to do more damage despite the wording. In 3.5 and Pathfinder you could stack all kinds of spells and abilities thats what it was all about.
As long as you have cast Spirit Shroud one or more rounds before you cast your Steel Wind Strike, and have maintained Concentration, you get the extra damage.
<Insert clever signature here>
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it.
The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon.
At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
Steel wind strikes description never says you strike with the weapon. A flourish is just moving an object around in an exaggerated or dramatic fashion. It does say you strike, but doesn’t say you strike with the weapon. This was written in this way on purpose so as to not allow smites or sneak attacks and things like that with multiclassing. Also was done to prevent the majority of outright damage buffs in the game. There had to be a balance struck between its ability to attack multiple creatures in a way that is similar to an AOE, but account for the multitude of ways attacks can be boosted by various features.
steel wind strike gives the ability to make a melee spell attack at a range of 30 feet without actually moving, unless you choose to at the end. Spirit shroud wouldn’t come into play unless those targets were within that 10ft distance. Greater invisibility is probably a better spell to cast anyways. Advantage is going to be more effective, and it drastically increases your DPR. Spirit shroud would give a general DPR increase of about 136.5 damage if assuming a 60% accuracy. Greater invisibility would increase DPR to 154.7 damage using the same damage situation but going for advantage vs extra dice. Greater invisibility would allow you to teleport to a creature you hit and move away without provoking an attack of opportunity too.
Elven accuracy would further increase that DPR to about 178 damage per round.
it’s much easier to gain advantage on your own attack rolls than it is to impose disadvantage on a group of creatures saving throws. Steel wind strike also has the ability to crit, something that AOEs that target saves can’t do.
spell sniper would extend the distance you could attack creatures to 60 feet which could also increase the range you could teleport.
Can you quote where does it state that in the spell exactly?
The question then would be what are you attacking with then if not the weapon that is in the requirement of the spell. If you where to swing the blade around and shoot magic slashes at the target then it would be a RANGED spell attack not MELEE. Also the wording is not used to prevent stuff like sneak attack as you cant use sneak attack with a spell unless it specifically states that you can, like booming blade.
Also you contradicted your self. The spell LITERALLY says "... to STRIKE like the wind."
Bouncing the numbers is nice but at the end of the day its just an extra 1-3d8 dmg. Again... not going to break the game. If a player is trying to mid-max there is easyer and more powerful ways to do it.
Can you show me where it states that the player doesn't move? I think thats the real question. Ive already pointed these points out and i could keep going but i see nothing to indicate that the caster doesnt move.