So for my D&D character I have gone 6 levels bard and the next level up I wanted to go into Warlock, specifically Hexblade and my DM is letting my use every feature except for the hex warrior feature (I have 18 Charisma). When I asked him why he said its because letting you use charisma in place of strength makes no sense and that he would not let me use it for any strength based weapons such as a great sword (I already have 18 dexterity). I know its up the the DM's discretion of what is fair and what isn't but getting rid of the hex warrior feature just takes the point out of the class so I was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to maybe get him over to my side. Thanks so much.
Note that for the first few levels that feature doesn't work with any two-handed weapons like the greatsword. The biggest weapon you could initially use it with is a longsword (used with both hands for 1d10), which is barely better than your existing rapier skills. A greatsword would only work after you took pact of the blade at Warlock level 3. That's a significant investment in that class. Perhaps that might tip the balance in the discussion.
Note that for the first few levels that feature doesn't work with any two-handed weapons like the greatsword. The biggest weapon you could initially use it with is a longsword (used with both hands for 1d10), which is barely better than your existing rapier skills. A greatsword would only work after you took pact of the blade at Warlock level 3. That's a significant investment in that class. Perhaps that might tip the balance in the discussion.
And also the Improved Pact Weapon invocation.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
To clarify, you don't need Improved Pact Weapon to use a greatsword with Hex Warrior, but you do need it to use your weapon as a spellcasting focus, or if you want to use a bow or crossbow as your pact weapon.
And eventually you're also going to need Thirsting Blade to attack two times per Attack action, and you're not going to get more attacks than that without two-weapon fighting.
And by being in melee range you're putting yourself in harm's way more often and risk of losing Hex.
On the other hand any Warlock with just Agonizing Blast can make ranged attacks from 120 feet away that deal 1d10 + CHA force damage, scaling up to 4 hits. And they get to use a shield even though they're dealing damage equivalent to a two-handed weapon. Every monster in every book published so far takes full force damage other than Helmed Horrors.
The Hex Warrior feature by itself NEVER works with two handed weapons.
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls."
"If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type."
The only way to apply the Hex Warrior features to other weapons is to take the Pact of the Blade as a 3rd level warlock. In addition, if you want a +1 weapon, that can be a bow or crossbow (but NOT a hand crossbow), that can be used as a spell casting focus then you need both Pact of the Blade and the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation.
If you are going to multiclass 3 levels into warlock and invest in Pact of the Blade (as a bard!) then I don't think hex warrior ability to apply charisma as the attack stat for your pact weapon makes much of a difference (you have invested a lot of levels to get it). It also depends which kind of bard you are playing (College of Swords or Valor - which I think both get extra attack at 6, vs a Lore Bard). Most of the weapons you could choose to apply hex warrior to are still d8 damage (maybe d10 in the case of a versatile longsword but then you give up the shield to AC) ... so hex warrior by itself really has no impact on the functionality or effectiveness of the character in melee combat compared to using a d8 rapier and using your dex (which you mentioned was 18 already). Hex warrior would let you wield a wider range of one handed weapons from a flavour/RP perspective but functionally doesn't do anything immediately for you in terms of increasing combat effectiveness (and even when you bump your cha by 2 it just means an extra +1). In addition, the hex warrior feature by itself only applies to one specific pre-selected weapon .. you can't swap it to another weapon without a long rest.
I think the proficiency with medium armor, shields and all martial weapons ... the hexblade's curse ... the access to all the usual warlock features like invocations, eldritch blast, short rest spell slots ... these features are what make the warlock dip so effective. The hex warrior feature is just an extra bonus which is convenient and lets you choose a wider selection of weapons from a role play perspective without significantly increasing combat effectiveness.
Personally, I have a 5 lore bard/2 hexblade warlock character .. in my case, since he focuses on casting spells and ranged attacks the main benefits of the warlock multiclass are the improved armor (medium vs light), use of a shield, and eldritch blast+agonizing blast (and possibly hex) for a relevant level of at will damage for those rounds when casting a spell isn't that useful plus an additional two first level spell slots that refresh on a short rest. Hex warrior allows the character to be a bit less MAD and focus on charisma if he is ever reduced to having to use a weapon in melee :) .. and in my case that is about it. (The character is DDAL using point buy so Cha started at 16 and dex at 14 ... variant human with resilient con at 1st level).
Oh ... and to answer the original question ... is the hexblade warlock overpowered ... I'd say no. It is a cool and fun class. It makes playing a combat focused warlock much more feasible but there are still good reasons both from a role play perspective and from the capability perspective to choose the other warlock archetypes depending on what you are looking to do. However, like a number of other classes, the hexblade warlock (and all warlocks) are quite front loaded with capabilities which makes taking a two or three level multiclass quite tempting depending on what the rest of the build looks like.
A CANTRIP allows anyone who can get it to use "their caster stat" for to hit and damage (Shilleligh) with a quarterstaff or club. A druid can use their wisdom. A lore bard could nab it at 6th and use cha. A monk could stack wisdom and take the magic initiate feat (druid) and use their wisdom. A pact of the tome warlock could get it and use Cha to fight with it. A cleric could take magic initiate(druid) and use their wisdom to make attacks.
A variant human could take that magic initiate (druid) stack wisdom and have a magic weapon at 1st level that uses wisdom for attack and damage for any class.
So how does that square with your DM? That hexblade ability is just as magical as Shilleligh.
Oh ... and to answer the original question ... is the hexblade warlock overpowered ... I'd say no. It is a cool and fun class. It makes playing a combat focused warlock much more feasible but there are still good reasons both from a role play perspective and from the capability perspective to choose the other warlock archetypes depending on what you are looking to do. However, like a number of other classes, the hexblade warlock (and all warlocks) are quite front loaded with capabilities which makes taking a two or three level multiclass quite tempting depending on what the rest of the build looks like.
I have a vengeance paladin/hexblade and love it, but I wouldn't call her over powered because of how bonus-action starved she is and how short-rest constrained she is. Not a lot of spells, things that only have 1 use between short rests, etc. If it's a boss fight she can SERIOUSLY bring the pain and the boss isn't getting away, but in prolonged fights, or several fights in a row between rests, she's pretty average.
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Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
Oh, and I would agree that they are not OP. That is one thing I think 5e did pretty well is that each class has chances to shine and do well and can be a wreck in the wrong hands or wrong situation. The effect of using CHA to do weapon combat is make a non-cantrip focused warlock viable. You don't have to be Eldritch Blast bunny. You probably still want attack cantrips but you don't have to. You can get utility cantrips and rely on a weapon for your sustained damage. This allows a weapon based Warlock not have to worry about 3 stats and stay focused on 2 for general effectiveness just like everyone.
Totally agree with InquisitiveCoder on the comparative effectiveness and costs around a eldritch blast based warlock. Does a ton of damage, and easy to make effective at less risk.
my DM is letting my use every feature except for the hex warrior feature (I have 18 Charisma). When I asked him why he said its because letting you use charisma in place of strength makes no sense
Taking Features out of classes, its ridiculous, its like taking out the Lay of Hands feature of a Paladin because for him Pallys are Tanks, not Healers and only clerics should be able to Heal.
Or Taking the Ability for a ranger to have Two weapon fighting ,because thats a Rogue job, and Rangers are Bow/Cross bows only...
If a class is desgined this way, its because it has to be this way, he can modify it if it really rub him wrong, but not straigth take it out of the game.
Take it this way, lets make it simple, lets say that at similar lvl ALL the classes in the game has at that point 5 Features for their class, because that guy doesn't like it, for some reason that particular class ends up with only 4 Features, leaving you behind in term of power and efficiency compared to the rest of the group.
So for my D&D character I have gone 6 levels bard and the next level up I wanted to go into Warlock, specifically Hexblade and my DM is letting my use every feature except for the hex warrior feature (I have 18 Charisma). When I asked him why he said its because letting you use charisma in place of strength makes no sense and that he would not let me use it for any strength based weapons such as a great sword (I already have 18 dexterity). I know its up the the DM's discretion of what is fair and what isn't but getting rid of the hex warrior feature just takes the point out of the class so I was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to maybe get him over to my side. Thanks so much.
Note that for the first few levels that feature doesn't work with any two-handed weapons like the greatsword. The biggest weapon you could initially use it with is a longsword (used with both hands for 1d10), which is barely better than your existing rapier skills. A greatsword would only work after you took pact of the blade at Warlock level 3. That's a significant investment in that class. Perhaps that might tip the balance in the discussion.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Just to add some more clarification.
The Hex Warrior feature by itself NEVER works with two handed weapons.
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls."
"If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type."
The only way to apply the Hex Warrior features to other weapons is to take the Pact of the Blade as a 3rd level warlock. In addition, if you want a +1 weapon, that can be a bow or crossbow (but NOT a hand crossbow), that can be used as a spell casting focus then you need both Pact of the Blade and the Improved Pact Weapon Invocation.
If you are going to multiclass 3 levels into warlock and invest in Pact of the Blade (as a bard!) then I don't think hex warrior ability to apply charisma as the attack stat for your pact weapon makes much of a difference (you have invested a lot of levels to get it). It also depends which kind of bard you are playing (College of Swords or Valor - which I think both get extra attack at 6, vs a Lore Bard). Most of the weapons you could choose to apply hex warrior to are still d8 damage (maybe d10 in the case of a versatile longsword but then you give up the shield to AC) ... so hex warrior by itself really has no impact on the functionality or effectiveness of the character in melee combat compared to using a d8 rapier and using your dex (which you mentioned was 18 already). Hex warrior would let you wield a wider range of one handed weapons from a flavour/RP perspective but functionally doesn't do anything immediately for you in terms of increasing combat effectiveness (and even when you bump your cha by 2 it just means an extra +1). In addition, the hex warrior feature by itself only applies to one specific pre-selected weapon .. you can't swap it to another weapon without a long rest.
I think the proficiency with medium armor, shields and all martial weapons ... the hexblade's curse ... the access to all the usual warlock features like invocations, eldritch blast, short rest spell slots ... these features are what make the warlock dip so effective. The hex warrior feature is just an extra bonus which is convenient and lets you choose a wider selection of weapons from a role play perspective without significantly increasing combat effectiveness.
Personally, I have a 5 lore bard/2 hexblade warlock character .. in my case, since he focuses on casting spells and ranged attacks the main benefits of the warlock multiclass are the improved armor (medium vs light), use of a shield, and eldritch blast+agonizing blast (and possibly hex) for a relevant level of at will damage for those rounds when casting a spell isn't that useful plus an additional two first level spell slots that refresh on a short rest. Hex warrior allows the character to be a bit less MAD and focus on charisma if he is ever reduced to having to use a weapon in melee :) .. and in my case that is about it. (The character is DDAL using point buy so Cha started at 16 and dex at 14 ... variant human with resilient con at 1st level).
Oh ... and to answer the original question ... is the hexblade warlock overpowered ... I'd say no. It is a cool and fun class. It makes playing a combat focused warlock much more feasible but there are still good reasons both from a role play perspective and from the capability perspective to choose the other warlock archetypes depending on what you are looking to do. However, like a number of other classes, the hexblade warlock (and all warlocks) are quite front loaded with capabilities which makes taking a two or three level multiclass quite tempting depending on what the rest of the build looks like.
A CANTRIP allows anyone who can get it to use "their caster stat" for to hit and damage (Shilleligh) with a quarterstaff or club. A druid can use their wisdom. A lore bard could nab it at 6th and use cha. A monk could stack wisdom and take the magic initiate feat (druid) and use their wisdom. A pact of the tome warlock could get it and use Cha to fight with it. A cleric could take magic initiate(druid) and use their wisdom to make attacks.
A variant human could take that magic initiate (druid) stack wisdom and have a magic weapon at 1st level that uses wisdom for attack and damage for any class.
So how does that square with your DM? That hexblade ability is just as magical as Shilleligh.
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
Oh, and I would agree that they are not OP. That is one thing I think 5e did pretty well is that each class has chances to shine and do well and can be a wreck in the wrong hands or wrong situation.
The effect of using CHA to do weapon combat is make a non-cantrip focused warlock viable. You don't have to be Eldritch Blast bunny. You probably still want attack cantrips but you don't have to. You can get utility cantrips and rely on a weapon for your sustained damage. This allows a weapon based Warlock not have to worry about 3 stats and stay focused on 2 for general effectiveness just like everyone.
Totally agree with InquisitiveCoder on the comparative effectiveness and costs around a eldritch blast based warlock. Does a ton of damage, and easy to make effective at less risk.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)