I'm a new and upcoming dm, and I'm having a discussion with one of my players who is thinking of picking up the warcaster feat. His idea is that if he ends up in melee combat, he can cast dissonant whispers and cause the creature to flee, causing an opportunity attack and casting a second spell as this attack.
My question is, can this be done? and if so, How does bonus action spells come into this?
for example can he cast a bonus action spell, a cantrip, and a reaction spell all on his turn?
I'm not trying to shut him down, but I'm worried this will lead into actions like a wizard casting fireball and casting counterspell (to counter a creatures counterspell on his fireball) all in the same turn.
Yes, a reaction spell doesn’t prevent him from casting both a bonus action spell and a cantrip in the same round. However Counterspell uses his reaction so he wouldn’t also be able to use his reaction to cast an attack spell as his attack of opportunity. If he wants to use Dissonant Whispers, he could only do that if he casts a cantrip that has a casting time of a bonus action and there are only a couple of those.
He can kind of do what he wants, but the action economy rules limit him a lot more than it looks like the first time you look at that feat.
The general rule is, you can use any sort of action to do anything that you can do with that sort of action. You can cast spells that take 1 reaction by using... 1 reaction. Spells that take 1 action by using... 1 action. Spells that take 1 Bonus Action by using... 1 bonus action. etc etc.
The only exception to this is:
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
But if you don't use a Bonus Action to cast a spell? Absolutely nothing stopping you from casting a leveled Action spell, and a leveled attack-of-opportunity spell, and/or whatever else your particular configuration of abilities allow you to do (Fireball and Counterspell of a Counterspell is just fine, unless you as a DM want to impose your own rule shutting that down). There is no general "maximum one leveled spell, one cantrip" rule, even though everyone sort of assumes there is.
As far as I know, you also can't cause another creature to trigger an opportunity attack.
A lot of things throughout the rules use that same concept, too. You can't drag someone through a spike growth to trigger the damage. Likewise, the opponent has to voluntarily move out of your range to trigger your OA
As far as I know, you also can't cause another creature to trigger an opportunity attack.
If you can force a creature uses their action, movement, or reaction to move, it can generate an Attack of Opportunity. Such as through the dissonant whispers spell. :)
As far as I know, you also can't cause another creature to trigger an opportunity attack.
If you can force a creature uses their action, movement, or reaction to move, it can generate an Attack of Opportunity. Such as through the dissonant whispers spell. :)
Whoops! Yup, sorry; totally missed that about Dissonant whispers! Yeah, the movement's technically coming from them. Seems legit :)
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
One question about that.
If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action, and after your turn a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you could cast a new 1 action spell using the War Caster feat (not only cantrips), right?
This is really related to this doubt: does the opportunity attack usually happen off-turn?
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
One question about that.
If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action, and after your turn a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you could cast a new 1 action spell using the War Caster feat (not only cantrips), right?
This is really related to this doubt: does the opportunity attack usually happen off-turn?
You can’t use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 Bonus Action; you can only use the Bonus Action to cast that spell.
For bonus action spellcasting, turn matters. The question comes down to if you're casting another spell before on after such spell on the same turn and if so restriction applies. Otherwise action economy is the only limit.
So you can always cast a spell as an action and one as a reaction on a turn.
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
One question about that.
If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action, and after your turn a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you could cast a new 1 action spell using the War Caster feat (not only cantrips), right?
This is really related to this doubt: does the opportunity attack usually happen off-turn?
You can’t use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 Bonus Action; you can only use the Bonus Action to cast that spell.
Sorry, where I said: "If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action", I meant "If you spend your turn to cast a spell using a bonus action"
If you spend your action turn to cast a spell using a bonus action, and after your turn a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you could cast a new 1 action spell using the War Caster feat (not only cantrips), right?
This is really related to this doubt: does the opportunity attack usually happen off-turn?
Right because it would be a different turn than the one you cast a bonus action
An Opportunity Attack most often occur off-turn but reactions can be taken anytime in fact depending when their trigger arise.
The general rule is, you can use any sort of action to do anything that you can do with that sort of action. You can cast spells that take 1 reaction by using... 1 reaction. Spells that take 1 action by using... 1 action. Spells that take 1 Bonus Action by using... 1 bonus action. etc etc.
The only exception to this is:
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
But if you don't use a Bonus Action to cast a spell? Absolutely nothing stopping you from casting a leveled Action spell, and a leveled attack-of-opportunity spell, and/or whatever else your particular configuration of abilities allow you to do (Fireball and Counterspell of a Counterspell is just fine, unless you as a DM want to impose your own rule shutting that down). There is no general "maximum one leveled spell, one cantrip" rule, even though everyone sort of assumes there is.
Borrowing this quote for a case.
From what I understand there's no issue in using a bonus action to cast a spell that requires a bonus action, if that happens to cause an opportunity attack, you can full well use a reaction with War Caster to cast a cantrip that requires 1 action that targets only that creature. Then you're kinda sitting on your main action that you cannot use for spellcasting as you're locked out, but you can dash, disengage, hide, whatever.
Similarly there's no issue in casting a leveled spell requiring 1 action (say dissonant whispers) that could then cause an opportunity attack. You can use your reaction with War Caster to cast another leveled spell given it requires 1 action and targets only that creature. Then you have a bonus action (and a movement action similar to above) that you haven't used and cannot for the sake of more spellcasting.
Basically it comes down to: Using War Caster during your own turn doesn't cost both a reaction AND an action - you replace the cost of the action in the spell with your reaction.
And strangely enough using a bonus action to cast a spell puts more limits on your turn than a spell using an action. So much for being swift.
All that being said; do remember that spellcasting in melee range will cause disadvantage on spells that uses a ranged spell attack.
The general rule is, you can use any sort of action to do anything that you can do with that sort of action. You can cast spells that take 1 reaction by using... 1 reaction. Spells that take 1 action by using... 1 action. Spells that take 1 Bonus Action by using... 1 bonus action. etc etc.
The only exception to this is:
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
But if you don't use a Bonus Action to cast a spell? Absolutely nothing stopping you from casting a leveled Action spell, and a leveled attack-of-opportunity spell, and/or whatever else your particular configuration of abilities allow you to do (Fireball and Counterspell of a Counterspell is just fine, unless you as a DM want to impose your own rule shutting that down). There is no general "maximum one leveled spell, one cantrip" rule, even though everyone sort of assumes there is.
Borrowing this quote for a case.
From what I understand there's no issue in using a bonus action to cast a spell that requires a bonus action, if that happens to cause an opportunity attack, you can full well use a reaction with War Caster to cast a cantrip that requires 1 action that targets only that creature. Then you're kinda sitting on your main action that you cannot use for spellcasting as you're locked out, but you can dash, disengage, hide, whatever.
Similarly there's no issue in casting a leveled spell requiring 1 action (say dissonant whispers) that could then cause an opportunity attack. You can use your reaction with War Caster to cast another leveled spell given it requires 1 action and targets only that creature. Then you have a bonus action (and a movement action similar to above) that you haven't used and cannot for the sake of more spellcasting.
Basically it comes down to: Using War Caster during your own turn doesn't cost both a reaction AND an action - you replace the cost of the action in the spell with your reaction.
And strangely enough using a bonus action to cast a spell puts more limits on your turn than a spell using an action. So much for being swift.
All that being said; do remember that spellcasting in melee range will cause disadvantage on spells that uses a ranged spell attack.
One correction to your above scenario: you can still use your action to cast a Cantrip. So you could BA Leveled Spell that gives you an OA (not sure one actually exists, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume it does), Reaction cast a Cantrip that targets only the offending creature, Action cast any Cantrip.
With War Caster, you can also cast Dissonant Whispers and then use your reaction to cast any single target Leveled Spell (ideally with a save or melee spell attack) and then have your bonus action to do anything except cast a Leveled Spell.
This brings up an interesting conundrum. What would happen if you had War Caster, used Dissonant Whispers, and followed that up with Shocking Grasp (assuming they fail the DW save and you hit with SG)? DW would cause them to immediately use their reaction and move, but then SG would take away their reaction. Would they start to move, provoking the OA, then lose their reaction and be forced to stop? Would they complete their movement as they have already "used" their reaction to start moving? Would the universe collapse under the weight of the paradox?
Dissonant Whispers requires the target to “immediately use its reaction”, so there is no time for you to take another action before it begins to move and the reaction has been used, meaning SG cannot prevent the movement.
Dissonant Whispers requires the target to “immediately use its reaction”, so there is no time for you to take another action before it begins to move and the reaction has been used, meaning SG cannot prevent the movement.
Agreed. Here is the order of events as I see them:
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
I was revisiting this post (to be honest, it crossed my mind while playing Baldur's Gate 3 and reading the War Caster description in the game). Upon reviewing the last responses, I noticed that the quoted text is incorrect.
You can cast a spell using your bonus action and, if a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you (assuming it's a possibility, although I'm not sure how), you can use your reaction to cast a spell ([post edited] to add here "a cantrip, really") with a casting time of 1 action, right?
I also noticed that @ArntItheBest mentioned a similar scenario, which leads me to assume that the answer is yes..
you can still use your action to cast a Cantrip. So you could BA Leveled Spell that gives you an OA (not sure one actually exists, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume it does), Reaction cast a Cantrip that targets only the offending creature, Action cast any Cantrip.
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
I was revisiting this post (to be honest, it crossed my mind while playing Baldur's Gate 3 and reading the War Caster description in the game). Upon reviewing the last responses, I noticed that the quoted text is incorrect.
You can cast a spell using your bonus action and, if a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you (assuming it's a possibility, although I'm not sure how), you can use your reaction to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action, right?
I also noticed that @ArntItheBest mentioned a similar scenario, which leads me to assume that the answer is yes..
you can still use your action to cast a Cantrip. So you could BA Leveled Spell that gives you an OA (not sure one actually exists, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume it does), Reaction cast a Cantrip that targets only the offending creature, Action cast any Cantrip.
This actually depends on how the DM reads and interprets the rule. I don't think it has a clear cut RAW answer. If I was running it, I personally would allow war caster to be used with cantrip that has a normalcasting time of 1 action on a turn in which a bonus action spell was also cast by the character but other DMs would rule differently.
The problem with the bonus action constraint is that it does NOT state "normal casting time of 1 action", it says "casting time of 1 action". A spell cast using the war caster feature may have a "normal" casting time of 1 action but is explicitly being cast as a reaction. So, in this context, the war caster cantrip spell has a casting time of 1 reaction and so might be considered an invalid option on a turn where a bonus action spell has been cast which restricts spells to a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action (not reactions). Different wording of the bonus action spellcasting constraint would make the situation clear but without that, it is up to the DM to decide whether the cantrip must be casting using an action or whether a cantrip with a normal casting time of 1 action which is cast as a reaction would satisfy the requirements.
Bonus action spell: "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Warcaster: "When a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
P.S. A practical example would be a sorcerer that quickens dissonant whispers, then uses war caster and their reaction to cast a cantrip at the fleeing target, then uses their action to cast an additional cantrip. The warcaster cantrip has a casting time of one action but is being cast as a reaction so it is a DM call as to whether it is valid on a turn when a bonus action spell is also cast.
P.S. A practical example would be a sorcerer that quickens dissonant whispers, then uses war caster and their reaction to cast a cantrip at the fleeing target, then uses their action to cast an additional cantrip. The warcaster cantrip has a casting time of one action but is being cast as a reaction so it is a DM call as to whether it is valid on a turn when a bonus action spell is also cast.
Debatable since War Caster doesn't say it change casting time but DM may still rule against it. FWIW, while not official ruling per se, the Dev gave a favorable opinion for it;
@DaveWil33 Warcaster doesn't state that it changes casting time of the spell when you replace an OA with it like Quicken spell does. Could you use WC to reaction cast an action cantrip on the same turn you cast a bonus action spell?
P.S. A practical example would be a sorcerer that quickens dissonant whispers, then uses war caster and their reaction to cast a cantrip at the fleeing target, then uses their action to cast an additional cantrip. The warcaster cantrip has a casting time of one action but is being cast as a reaction so it is a DM call as to whether it is valid on a turn when a bonus action spell is also cast.
Debatable since War Caster doesn't say it change casting time but DM may still rule against it. FWIW, while not official ruling per se, the Dev gave a favorable opinion for it;
@DaveWil33 Warcaster doesn't state that it changes casting time of the spell when you replace an OA with it like Quicken spell does. Could you use WC to reaction cast an action cantrip on the same turn you cast a bonus action spell?
@JeremyECrawford Yes.
Agreed. Totally debatable which is why I mentioned it. Although War Caster doesn't say anything specifically - any spell being cast using War Caster is clearly not being cast using an Action - it is being cast using a Reaction even if the spell usually costs an Action to cast since the character is not using their action to cast it.
Also, as JC has mentioned, most of his Sage Advice answers (with the exception of the SAC which is official) are usually just the answers he would give if he was DMing it at the moment (which is part of why his answers change from time to time) ... most of them aren't RAW or RAI necessarily but RAJC. :)
The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
From Bonus action casting rule:
You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
You could debate if you can use war caster’s OA if you cast a BA spell. But I think it’s pretty clear, and as some have pointed out BA casting doesn’t say you have to cast as an action. Both WC and BA just say the cantrip has to have a casting time of 1 action.
Hey,
I'm a new and upcoming dm, and I'm having a discussion with one of my players who is thinking of picking up the warcaster feat. His idea is that if he ends up in melee combat, he can cast dissonant whispers and cause the creature to flee, causing an opportunity attack and casting a second spell as this attack.
My question is, can this be done?
and if so,
How does bonus action spells come into this?
for example can he cast a bonus action spell, a cantrip, and a reaction spell all on his turn?
I'm not trying to shut him down, but I'm worried this will lead into actions like a wizard casting fireball and casting counterspell (to counter a creatures counterspell on his fireball) all in the same turn.
Yes, a reaction spell doesn’t prevent him from casting both a bonus action spell and a cantrip in the same round. However Counterspell uses his reaction so he wouldn’t also be able to use his reaction to cast an attack spell as his attack of opportunity. If he wants to use Dissonant Whispers, he could only do that if he casts a cantrip that has a casting time of a bonus action and there are only a couple of those.
He can kind of do what he wants, but the action economy rules limit him a lot more than it looks like the first time you look at that feat.
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The general rule is, you can use any sort of action to do anything that you can do with that sort of action. You can cast spells that take 1 reaction by using... 1 reaction. Spells that take 1 action by using... 1 action. Spells that take 1 Bonus Action by using... 1 bonus action. etc etc.
The only exception to this is:
This means that if you cast a spell using a Bonus Action, any other spell you cast during your turn must be a cantrip and use 1 action. If you cast a bonus action spell, wham, no using Warcaster attack-of-opportunity spells during your turn, whether they're cantrips or not (although you're still free to use one off-turn).
But if you don't use a Bonus Action to cast a spell? Absolutely nothing stopping you from casting a leveled Action spell, and a leveled attack-of-opportunity spell, and/or whatever else your particular configuration of abilities allow you to do (Fireball and Counterspell of a Counterspell is just fine, unless you as a DM want to impose your own rule shutting that down). There is no general "maximum one leveled spell, one cantrip" rule, even though everyone sort of assumes there is.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As far as I know, you also can't cause another creature to trigger an opportunity attack.
A lot of things throughout the rules use that same concept, too. You can't drag someone through a spike growth to trigger the damage. Likewise, the opponent has to voluntarily move out of your range to trigger your OA
If you can force a creature uses their action, movement, or reaction to move, it can generate an Attack of Opportunity. Such as through the dissonant whispers spell. :)
Whoops! Yup, sorry; totally missed that about Dissonant whispers! Yeah, the movement's technically coming from them. Seems legit :)
One question about that.
If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action, and after your turn a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack, you could cast a new 1 action spell using the War Caster feat (not only cantrips), right?
This is really related to this doubt: does the opportunity attack usually happen off-turn?
You can’t use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 Bonus Action; you can only use the Bonus Action to cast that spell.
For bonus action spellcasting, turn matters. The question comes down to if you're casting another spell before on after such spell on the same turn and if so restriction applies. Otherwise action economy is the only limit.
So you can always cast a spell as an action and one as a reaction on a turn.
@TexasDevin has a great diagram concerning bonus action spellcasting. somewhere ;)
Sorry, where I said: "If you spend your action to cast a spell using a bonus action", I meant "If you spend your turn to cast a spell using a bonus action"
Right because it would be a different turn than the one you cast a bonus action
An Opportunity Attack most often occur off-turn but reactions can be taken anytime in fact depending when their trigger arise.
Borrowing this quote for a case.
From what I understand there's no issue in using a bonus action to cast a spell that requires a bonus action, if that happens to cause an opportunity attack, you can full well use a reaction with War Caster to cast a cantrip that requires 1 action that targets only that creature. Then you're kinda sitting on your main action that you cannot use for spellcasting as you're locked out, but you can dash, disengage, hide, whatever.
Similarly there's no issue in casting a leveled spell requiring 1 action (say dissonant whispers) that could then cause an opportunity attack. You can use your reaction with War Caster to cast another leveled spell given it requires 1 action and targets only that creature. Then you have a bonus action (and a movement action similar to above) that you haven't used and cannot for the sake of more spellcasting.
Basically it comes down to: Using War Caster during your own turn doesn't cost both a reaction AND an action - you replace the cost of the action in the spell with your reaction.
And strangely enough using a bonus action to cast a spell puts more limits on your turn than a spell using an action. So much for being swift.
All that being said; do remember that spellcasting in melee range will cause disadvantage on spells that uses a ranged spell attack.
Dissonant Whispers requires the target to “immediately use its reaction”, so there is no time for you to take another action before it begins to move and the reaction has been used, meaning SG cannot prevent the movement.
Agreed. Here is the order of events as I see them:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I was revisiting this post (to be honest, it crossed my mind while playing Baldur's Gate 3 and reading the War Caster description in the game). Upon reviewing the last responses, I noticed that the quoted text is incorrect.
You can cast a spell using your bonus action and, if a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you (assuming it's a possibility, although I'm not sure how), you can use your reaction to cast a spell ([post edited] to add here "a cantrip, really") with a casting time of 1 action, right?
I also noticed that @ArntItheBest mentioned a similar scenario, which leads me to assume that the answer is yes..
This actually depends on how the DM reads and interprets the rule. I don't think it has a clear cut RAW answer. If I was running it, I personally would allow war caster to be used with cantrip that has a normal casting time of 1 action on a turn in which a bonus action spell was also cast by the character but other DMs would rule differently.
The problem with the bonus action constraint is that it does NOT state "normal casting time of 1 action", it says "casting time of 1 action". A spell cast using the war caster feature may have a "normal" casting time of 1 action but is explicitly being cast as a reaction. So, in this context, the war caster cantrip spell has a casting time of 1 reaction and so might be considered an invalid option on a turn where a bonus action spell has been cast which restricts spells to a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action (not reactions). Different wording of the bonus action spellcasting constraint would make the situation clear but without that, it is up to the DM to decide whether the cantrip must be casting using an action or whether a cantrip with a normal casting time of 1 action which is cast as a reaction would satisfy the requirements.
Bonus action spell: "You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Warcaster: "When a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
P.S. A practical example would be a sorcerer that quickens dissonant whispers, then uses war caster and their reaction to cast a cantrip at the fleeing target, then uses their action to cast an additional cantrip. The warcaster cantrip has a casting time of one action but is being cast as a reaction so it is a DM call as to whether it is valid on a turn when a bonus action spell is also cast.
Debatable since War Caster doesn't say it change casting time but DM may still rule against it. FWIW, while not official ruling per se, the Dev gave a favorable opinion for it;
Agreed. Totally debatable which is why I mentioned it. Although War Caster doesn't say anything specifically - any spell being cast using War Caster is clearly not being cast using an Action - it is being cast using a Reaction even if the spell usually costs an Action to cast since the character is not using their action to cast it.
Also, as JC has mentioned, most of his Sage Advice answers (with the exception of the SAC which is official) are usually just the answers he would give if he was DMing it at the moment (which is part of why his answers change from time to time) ... most of them aren't RAW or RAI necessarily but RAJC. :)
From War Caster:
From Bonus action casting rule:
You could debate if you can use war caster’s OA if you cast a BA spell. But I think it’s pretty clear, and as some have pointed out BA casting doesn’t say you have to cast as an action. Both WC and BA just say the cantrip has to have a casting time of 1 action.
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