This is another one of those. "Did I set up the spell correctly?"
Players are in a city sewer system engaged with the BBEG. They are in a 50-diameter/25-radius circular room with a 30-foot ceiling. The BBEG casts Call Lightning.
The 'casting conditions' for the spell are as follows:
A storm cloud appears in the shape of a cylinder that is 10 feet tall with a 60-foot radius, centered on a point you can see within range directly above you. The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud).
My questions: 1) If the room is less than a 60-foot radius, in my case 25-foot radius, can I still cast the spell? Is that a bare minimum or maximum size allowed to cast? 2) There is no ruling for this so this is more your opinion: With a 30-foot ceiling, the 10-foot mark is where the clouds start, but would the clouds fill the remaining 20 feet above the cloud line? If the Warlock cast Spider-Climb, could they get 'above' the cloud to get away from the lightning strikes and use range weapons (visibility rules applied) to fire at the BBEG?
1) If the room is less than a 60-foot radius, in my case 25-foot radius, can I still cast the spell? Is that a bare minimum or maximum size allowed to cast? Yes, areas of total cover aren't included in the spell's area of effect.
Area of Effect: f no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover.
2)With a 30-foot ceiling, the 10-foot mark is where the clouds start, but would the clouds fill the remaining 20 feet above the cloud line? If the Warlock cast Spider-Climb, could they get 'above' the cloud to get away from the lightning strikes and use range weapons (visibility rules applied) to fire at the BBEG? No it wouldn't go up if the cylinder expand straight down from the point of origin.It would be possible to climb over the cloud.
Cylinder: A cylinder's point of origin is the center of a circle of a particular radius, as given in the spell description. The circle must either be on the ground or at the height of the spell effect. The energy in a cylinder expands in straight lines from the point of origin to the perimeter of the circle, forming the base of the cylinder. The spell's effect then shoots up from the base or down from the top, to a distance equal to the height of the cylinder. A cylinder's point of origin is included in the cylinder's area of effect.
Don't agree. I don't think the spell could be cast in the space described. The spell text says, explicitly:
The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud).
The spell text does not say the 60-foot radius is "soft" or reducible. If the space is not at least 60' wide and 10' tall, the spell can't be cast in it.
With respect to your second question Call Lightning it states that the cloud appears in the shape of a cylinder that is 10 feet tall. The clouds do not fill all the space above and given the right environment you could climb or fly above the cloud.
For your first question I have always interpreted "The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)." to mean that if you can't fit the full 10ft tall, 60ft radius cylinder cloud in the room above you then the spell fails. That sentence though really is the only piece of evidence I have to support my interpretation, so for those that disagree I don't really have any other supporting evidence to point to. This is a very specific requirement and I don't believe anything similar exists in another spell.
The caster must choose a point of origin that is above them so with the way I run it the minimum height of the room is the height of the caster plus 10 feet. *Edit* I was thinking the cloud grew up from the point of origin but Call Lightning doesn't require this and the targeting rules for Cylinders allow you to put the point of origin at the top and have the cylinder grow down.
I can see the phrase "The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear . . ." meaning different things to different people. But the example they give in parenthesis "... (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)." makes it pretty clear to me that the room must be able to fit the cloud.
This one seems pretty straightforward. The cloud must be able to fit within a space where you can see the point of origin which must be directly above you within range. Assuming your room was wider, you can simply create the cloud at the top of the room if desired -- the range of the spell determines how high up you can place the cloud. The cloud itself is 10 feet tall but it could be 20 feet above the ground or 50 feet or up to 120 feet above the ground. Assuming vertical walls, as written even if the room was wide enough to fit the cloud there are lots of scenarios where the spell would still fail if you are located too close to one of the walls since the center of the cloud must be directly above you. So, you cannot be standing within 60 feet of any wall.
So, as for the questions:
1. You can cast the spell, but it would fail.
2. The 10-foot mark is not where the clouds start unless you intentionally put it there. The "center" of the cylinder (which is defined by the game as the center of one of the circles which endcap the cylinder) can be anywhere above you within the range of the spell, which is 120 feet. If desired, you can place the cloud at the "upper 10 feet" of the room. However, a creature could still theoretically climb within the cloud, in particular into the upper 5-foot slice of the cloud and then be immune to the lightning since the lightning must be directed under the cloud and affects creatures within 5 feet of that point.
So the only way this spell would work indoors is if the caster is in a room at least 120 feet wide by 10 feet tall?
Correct. Areas of total cover being mentioned earlier is irrelevant as Call Lightning specifies that this much space is an explicit requirement.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Don't agree. I don't think the spell could be cast in the space described. The spell text says, explicitly:
The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud).
The spell text does not say the 60-foot radius is "soft" or reducible. If the space is not at least 60' wide and 10' tall, the spell can't be cast in it.
While the quote refers to two different aspects of the spell in being able to see the point of origin and accomodate the cloud's area of effect, i agree that the exemple makes it unusable in a smaller space so let me retract.
They removed the wording about the spell failing in 5.24
"The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)."
Also, for targeting flying creatures, as long as they are below the cloud, it should work.
I couldn't find anything specific on this, but what if you were playing a flying race, and you were flying several hundred feet up in the air, and cast this spell. Based on the wording, it looks like you could target anyone below the cloud, regardless of distance, as long as you can see them. The 'Range' limitation seems only to affect the initial creation of the cloud, not the subsequent calling down of lightning strikes, except to set the radius of the effect.
So, could you safely fly around a mile up, and call lightning down on the peasants below?
Yes, it seems you can now cast this spell indoors (EDIT to add "... in situations where it wasn't possible before"). In that case, I think this rule about Area of Effect should apply:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
I couldn't find anything specific on this, but what if you were playing a flying race, and you were flying several hundred feet up in the air, and cast this spell. Based on the wording, it looks like you could target anyone below the cloud, regardless of distance, as long as you can see them. The 'Range' limitation seems only to affect the initial creation of the cloud, not the subsequent calling down of lightning strikes, except to set the radius of the effect.
So, could you safely fly around a mile up, and call lightning down on the peasants below?
I think this should work. In fact, that scenario could be more or less equivalent to being outdoors in a storm.
Yes, it seems you can now cast this spell indoors. In that case, I think this rule about Area of Effect should apply:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
I couldn't find anything specific on this, but what if you were playing a flying race, and you were flying several hundred feet up in the air, and cast this spell. Based on the wording, it looks like you could target anyone below the cloud, regardless of distance, as long as you can see them. The 'Range' limitation seems only to affect the initial creation of the cloud, not the subsequent calling down of lightning strikes, except to set the radius of the effect.
So, could you safely fly around a mile up, and call lightning down on the peasants below?
I think this should work. In fact, that scenario could be more or less equivalent to being outdoors in a storm.
Where do you read it can be cast indoors for the 2024 rules?
Yes, it seems you can now cast this spell indoors (EDIT to add "... in situations where it wasn't possible before"). In that case, I think this rule about Area of Effect should apply:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
I couldn't find anything specific on this, but what if you were playing a flying race, and you were flying several hundred feet up in the air, and cast this spell. Based on the wording, it looks like you could target anyone below the cloud, regardless of distance, as long as you can see them. The 'Range' limitation seems only to affect the initial creation of the cloud, not the subsequent calling down of lightning strikes, except to set the radius of the effect.
So, could you safely fly around a mile up, and call lightning down on the peasants below?
I think this should work. In fact, that scenario could be more or less equivalent to being outdoors in a storm.
Where do you read it can be cast indoors for the 2024 rules?
I didn’t read anything about the opposite—only outdoors—in the spell, either.
But the 2014 version had this sentence: "The spell fails if you can't see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can't accommodate the cloud)."
That line or requirement isn't in the new spell.
In fact, being outdoors is just an option: "If you’re outdoors in a storm when you cast this spell..."
EDIT: @BKThomson I just realized you were the OP :( The 2014 version of the spell can also be cast indoors, as stated by others in the thread, if the room has the required dimensions.
2024 version still needs the height though. It stats that you target a point under the cloud. The cloud itself is 10 ft. high. So, you need a minimum of 15 ft ceilings to cast this indoors.
2024 version still needs the height though. It stats that you target a point under the cloud. The cloud itself is 10 ft. high. So, you need a minimum of 15 ft ceilings to cast this indoors.
Very true. I agree.
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Spell: Call Lightning
This is another one of those. "Did I set up the spell correctly?"
Players are in a city sewer system engaged with the BBEG.
They are in a 50-diameter/25-radius circular room with a 30-foot ceiling.
The BBEG casts Call Lightning.
The 'casting conditions' for the spell are as follows:
My questions:
1) If the room is less than a 60-foot radius, in my case 25-foot radius, can I still cast the spell? Is that a bare minimum or maximum size allowed to cast?
2) There is no ruling for this so this is more your opinion: With a 30-foot ceiling, the 10-foot mark is where the clouds start, but would the clouds fill the remaining 20 feet above the cloud line? If the Warlock cast Spider-Climb, could they get 'above' the cloud to get away from the lightning strikes and use range weapons (visibility rules applied) to fire at the BBEG?
1) If the room is less than a 60-foot radius, in my case 25-foot radius, can I still cast the spell? Is that a bare minimum or maximum size allowed to cast? Yes, areas of total cover aren't included in the spell's area of effect.
2) With a 30-foot ceiling, the 10-foot mark is where the clouds start, but would the clouds fill the remaining 20 feet above the cloud line? If the Warlock cast Spider-Climb, could they get 'above' the cloud to get away from the lightning strikes and use range weapons (visibility rules applied) to fire at the BBEG? No it wouldn't go up if the cylinder expand straight down from the point of origin. It would be possible to climb over the cloud.
Don't agree. I don't think the spell could be cast in the space described. The spell text says, explicitly:
The spell text does not say the 60-foot radius is "soft" or reducible. If the space is not at least 60' wide and 10' tall, the spell can't be cast in it.
With respect to your second question Call Lightning it states that the cloud appears in the shape of a cylinder that is 10 feet tall. The clouds do not fill all the space above and given the right environment you could climb or fly above the cloud.
For your first question I have always interpreted "The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)." to mean that if you can't fit the full 10ft tall, 60ft radius cylinder cloud in the room above you then the spell fails. That sentence though really is the only piece of evidence I have to support my interpretation, so for those that disagree I don't really have any other supporting evidence to point to. This is a very specific requirement and I don't believe anything similar exists in another spell.
So the only way this spell would work indoors is if the caster is in a room at least 120 feet wide by 10 feet tall?
The caster must choose a point of origin that is above them so with the way I run it the minimum height of the room is the height of the caster plus 10 feet.*Edit* I was thinking the cloud grew up from the point of origin but Call Lightning doesn't require this and the targeting rules for Cylinders allow you to put the point of origin at the top and have the cylinder grow down.I can see the phrase "The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear . . ." meaning different things to different people. But the example they give in parenthesis "... (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)." makes it pretty clear to me that the room must be able to fit the cloud.
Or if it's used outdoors, which is (I believe) its primary purpose, since it's a druid spell.
This one seems pretty straightforward. The cloud must be able to fit within a space where you can see the point of origin which must be directly above you within range. Assuming your room was wider, you can simply create the cloud at the top of the room if desired -- the range of the spell determines how high up you can place the cloud. The cloud itself is 10 feet tall but it could be 20 feet above the ground or 50 feet or up to 120 feet above the ground. Assuming vertical walls, as written even if the room was wide enough to fit the cloud there are lots of scenarios where the spell would still fail if you are located too close to one of the walls since the center of the cloud must be directly above you. So, you cannot be standing within 60 feet of any wall.
So, as for the questions:
1. You can cast the spell, but it would fail.
2. The 10-foot mark is not where the clouds start unless you intentionally put it there. The "center" of the cylinder (which is defined by the game as the center of one of the circles which endcap the cylinder) can be anywhere above you within the range of the spell, which is 120 feet. If desired, you can place the cloud at the "upper 10 feet" of the room. However, a creature could still theoretically climb within the cloud, in particular into the upper 5-foot slice of the cloud and then be immune to the lightning since the lightning must be directed under the cloud and affects creatures within 5 feet of that point.
Correct. Areas of total cover being mentioned earlier is irrelevant as Call Lightning specifies that this much space is an explicit requirement.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
While the quote refers to two different aspects of the spell in being able to see the point of origin and accomodate the cloud's area of effect, i agree that the exemple makes it unusable in a smaller space so let me retract.
They removed the wording about the spell failing in 5.24
"The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)."
Also, for targeting flying creatures, as long as they are below the cloud, it should work.
I couldn't find anything specific on this, but what if you were playing a flying race, and you were flying several hundred feet up in the air, and cast this spell.
Based on the wording, it looks like you could target anyone below the cloud, regardless of distance, as long as you can see them. The 'Range' limitation seems only to affect the initial creation of the cloud, not the subsequent calling down of lightning strikes, except to set the radius of the effect.
So, could you safely fly around a mile up, and call lightning down on the peasants below?
Yes, it seems you can now cast this spell indoors (EDIT to add "... in situations where it wasn't possible before"). In that case, I think this rule about Area of Effect should apply:
I think this should work. In fact, that scenario could be more or less equivalent to being outdoors in a storm.
Where do you read it can be cast indoors for the 2024 rules?
I didn’t read anything about the opposite—only outdoors—in the spell, either.
But the 2014 version had this sentence: "The spell fails if you can't see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can't accommodate the cloud)."
That line or requirement isn't in the new spell.
In fact, being outdoors is just an option: "If you’re outdoors in a storm when you cast this spell..."
EDIT: @BKThomson I just realized you were the OP :( The 2014 version of the spell can also be cast indoors, as stated by others in the thread, if the room has the required dimensions.
2024 version still needs the height though. It stats that you target a point under the cloud. The cloud itself is 10 ft. high. So, you need a minimum of 15 ft ceilings to cast this indoors.
Very true. I agree.