Hello! Some of the spells innate for the species could be upcasted (as example, the False Life) There's a level associated tho this spells? It's always considered a 'minimum level' spell?
For example, a 7th level Tiefling casts False Life as 1st or as 4th level spell?
Also, an High Elf can choose a cantrip from Wizard List. If I choose a cantrip that scales, the casting level of the cantrip is 1 or related to the character's level?
This cantrips / spells are not related to the class, but to the character.
Spells you're casting without a spell slot are cast at minimum level unless it says otherwise. (Old tieflings had Hellish Rebuke at second level.)
Cantrips don't get upcast like other spells. Instead, they have a built-in scaling effect based on character level, so they do scale.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Let's use the Magic Initiate Feat as an example.
First of all, that Feat provides a Level 1 spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell list which is "always prepared" -- it doesn't say anything about that spell being "known" or "learned".
Next, suppose your character is a Sorcerer. You might choose a Level 1 Cleric spell with this Feat. If the Feat description ended right there, you might not have any method of casting that spell with a spell slot unless that spell happened to also be on the Sorcerer spell list, even though the Sorcerer does have spell slots to use.
However, as it turns out, that Feat includes this statement: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have." So now the Sorcerer can cast the "always prepared" Cleric spell with a spell slot by using the rules provided in this Feat to do so.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
...
Always-Prepared Spells
Certain features might give you a spell that you always have prepared. If you also have a list of prepared spells that you can change, a spell that you always have prepared doesn’t count against the number of spells on that list.
If the spell is prepared, you can cast it with spell slots.
Elven Lineage. You are part of a lineage that grants you supernatural abilities. Choose a lineage from the Elven Lineages table. You gain the level 1 benefit of that lineage.
When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage).
The following Player's Handbook Feats give you always prepared spells that you can once per long rest or cast with a spell slot
Magic Initiate
Fey-Touched
Shadow-Touched
Telepathic
Ritual Caster gives you a number of always prepared spells that you cast as a Ritual. Because they are always prepared, you can cast them with any spell slots if you don't want to wait on the ritual cast time.
There are no Feats in the 2024 PHB that give you spells that you can cast a limited number of times and aren't always prepared. There are no 2024 PHB species that give you a spell you can only cast a limited number of times without also making it always prepared.
There are several ways to cast a spell without expending a spell slot:
Cantrips. A cantrip is cast without a spell slot.
Rituals. [...]
Special Abilities. Some characters and monsters have special abilities that allow them to cast specific spells without a spell slot. This casting is usually limited in another way, such as being able to cast the spell a limited number of times per day.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
...
Always-Prepared Spells
Certain features might give you a spell that you always have prepared. If you also have a list of prepared spells that you can change, a spell that you always have prepared doesn’t count against the number of spells on that list.
If the spell is prepared, you can cast it with spell slots.
Notice that you just drew a conclusion that does not match up with the text that you've quoted. You are making an assumption. In fact, when a spell is prepared, that does NOT automatically mean that you can cast it with a spell slot. Your trait, Feat or feature must explicitly provide a method of doing so, and using such a feature will often be dependent on which class list the spell belongs to, and so on. Just being in a "prepared" status is not enough.
For example, again, if you have a Feat that allows you to have a Cleric spell "always prepared" and that Feat does not explicitly provide its own method of casting the spell with a spell slot, and you are a Sorcerer . . . you would have no method available to you to cast that spell. That is because your Sorcerer Spellcasting feature explicitly requires the prepared spell that you cast to be one of your Sorcerer spells.
The point is, these Feats typically DO provide all of the necessary rules within the Feat itself for exactly this reason. But it's not enough to say that if a Feat makes the spell known to you then you can cast it with a spell slot. The game does not work like that.
Elven Lineage. You are part of a lineage that grants you supernatural abilities. Choose a lineage from the Elven Lineages table. You gain the level 1 benefit of that lineage.
When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage).
Yes, thank you for making my point for me with this example. Notice the bolded portion above which states: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level." If this trait did NOT explicitly include this rule within its description, then you would NOT have a method of casting the spell with a spell slot unless you happened to have a Spellcasting feature which correctly matches up with the spell in question. The fact that the trait provides a spell that is always prepared is not enough to guarantee that you can cast it. The trait had to explicitly provide a method of doing so.
In other words, the fact that the spell is prepared is (usually) a prerequisite for casting the spell with a spell slot, but it's not the only prerequisite.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Let's use the Magic Initiate Feat as an example.
First of all, that Feat provides a Level 1 spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell list which is "always prepared" -- it doesn't say anything about that spell being "known" or "learned".
Next, suppose your character is a Sorcerer. You might choose a Level 1 Cleric spell with this Feat. If the Feat description ended right there, you might not have any method of casting that spell with a spell slot unless that spell happened to also be on the Sorcerer spell list, even though the Sorcerer does have spell slots to use.
However, as it turns out, that Feat includes this statement: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have." So now the Sorcerer can cast the "always prepared" Cleric spell with a spell slot by using the rules provided in this Feat to do so.
You have some ideas about the rules about spellcasting that are... not generally agreed with. You're already arguing them in one thread. You're bringing them over to this thread to argue a point that's irrelevant, since the features in question have the clause you say is necessary.
Since the thread is answering somebody's rules question, bringing up an irrelevant technical point is only likely to confuse the issue for the person who had the question.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Let's use the Magic Initiate Feat as an example.
First of all, that Feat provides a Level 1 spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell list which is "always prepared" -- it doesn't say anything about that spell being "known" or "learned".
Next, suppose your character is a Sorcerer. You might choose a Level 1 Cleric spell with this Feat. If the Feat description ended right there, you might not have any method of casting that spell with a spell slot unless that spell happened to also be on the Sorcerer spell list, even though the Sorcerer does have spell slots to use.
However, as it turns out, that Feat includes this statement: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have." So now the Sorcerer can cast the "always prepared" Cleric spell with a spell slot by using the rules provided in this Feat to do so.
You have some ideas about the rules about spellcasting that are... not generally agreed with. You're already arguing them in one thread. You're bringing them over to this thread to argue a point that's irrelevant, since the features in question have the clause you say is necessary.
Since the thread is answering somebody's rules question, bringing up an irrelevant technical point is only likely to confuse the issue for the person who had the question.
This is incorrect. The point that I am making here is extremely relevant to the question that was posed in the Original Post. It is for the benefit of the one who asked the original question as well as for future readers who might have the same question. It helps them to avoid misunderstanding the rules based on the previous responses. [REDACTED]
Hello! Some of the spells innate for the species could be upcasted (as example, the False Life) There's a level associated tho this spells? It's always considered a 'minimum level' spell?
For example, a 7th level Tiefling casts False Life as 1st or as 4th level spell?
Also, an High Elf can choose a cantrip from Wizard List. If I choose a cantrip that scales, the casting level of the cantrip is 1 or related to the character's level?
This cantrips / spells are not related to the class, but to the character.
Thanks!
personally think if "false life" allows you to use higher spell slots, then feel free to use a higher spell slot for it - why would gaining it via fiendish legacy change that??
in saying that based of the wording of fiendish legacy it seem: 1. one use per long rest without expanding a spell slot - "You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest." 2. if you want to use it again after that then spell slots can/must be used - "You can also cast the spellusing any spell slots you have of the appropriate level"
the "appropriate level" part i personally take as shorthand for - " A level 1 spell fits into a slot of any size, but a level 2 spell fits only into a slot that’s at least level 2." (from chapter 7 - spell level section)
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
...
Always-Prepared Spells
Certain features might give you a spell that you always have prepared. If you also have a list of prepared spells that you can change, a spell that you always have prepared doesn’t count against the number of spells on that list.
If the spell is prepared, you can cast it with spell slots.
Notice that you just drew a conclusion that does not match up with the text that you've quoted. You are making an assumption. In fact, when a spell is prepared, that does NOT automatically mean that you can cast it with a spell slot. Your trait, Feat or feature must explicitly provide a method of doing so, and using such a feature will often be dependent on which class list the spell belongs to, and so on. Just being in a "prepared" status is not enough.
I didn't realize you were attempting to make the assertion that you can't cast a prepared spell with spell slots.
Each spell description has a series of entries that provide the details needed to cast the spell. The following sections explain each of those entries, which follow a spell’s name.
Spell Level
Every spell has a level from 0 to 9, which is indicated in a spell’s description. A spell’s level is an indicator of how powerful it is. Cantrips—simple spells that can be cast almost by rote—are level 0. The rules for each spellcasting class say when its members gain access to spells of certain levels.
Spell Slots
Spellcasting is taxing, so a spellcaster can cast only a limited number of level 1+ spells before resting. Spell slots are the main way a spellcaster’s magical potential is represented. Each spellcasting class gives its members a limited number of spell slots of certain spell levels. For example, a level 3 Wizard has four level 1 spell slots and two level 2 slots.
When you cast a spell, you expend a slot of that spell’s level or higher, effectively “filling” a slot with the spell. Imagine a spell slot is a groove of a certain size—small for a level 1 slot and larger for a higher-level spell. A level 1 spell fits into a slot of any size, but a level 2 spell fits only into a slot that’s at least level 2. So when a level 3 Wizard casts Magic Missile, a level 1 spell, that Wizard spends one of four level 1 slots and has three remaining.
Finishing a Long Rest restores any expended spell slots.
Notice that your class is the source of spell slots, but does not limit which prepared spells you can cast with those slots.
Redundant text for clarity is nothing more than that. One feature explicitly stating that you can use spell slots to cast an always prepared spell does not inherently create a rule that you can't cast prepared spells with spell slots when it is not mentioned.
Combining Gaining Spells with Casting Spells, having a level 1+ spell prepared and having a spell slot of at least that spell's level are the only requirements to cast a spell with a spell slot.
Notice that Fiend Spells only identifies spells that are always prepared for the Warlock? Nothing more is needed.
The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
Are you going to argue that Fiend Patron Warlocks can't cast Burning Hands because their feature doesn't explicitly say that you can cast it with a spell slot?
I didn't realize you were attempting to make the assertion that you can't cast a prepared spell with spell slots.
. . .
Notice that your class is the source of spell slots, but does not limit which prepared spells you can cast with those slots.
Redundant text for clarity is nothing more than that. One feature explicitly stating that you can use spell slots to cast an always prepared spell does not inherently create a rule that you can't cast prepared spells with spell slots when it is not mentioned.
Combining Gaining Spells with Casting Spells, having a level 1+ spell prepared and having a spell slot of at least that spell's level are the only requirements to cast a spell with a spell slot.
No, this is not correct. It doesn't work like that.
None of the general rules that you've quoted actually give the character an ability to cast any spells. You need to have access to a trait, Feat or feature which explicitly tells you that you can cast spells -- otherwise, you can't.
The most common features which provide a method for casting a spell with a spell slot are the various Spellcasting features and the Pact Magic feature. But each of those features requires for the spell in question to be a certain type of spell, otherwise you cannot use that feature to cast that spell, even if it is a prepared spell.
This is why the Feats will provide an explicit rule of its own which states that you can cast a spell, and it gives you the rules for how to do so when using the Feat. Without that language, there are situations where you cannot cast the spell. It's not enough for the Feat to simply state that the spell is "known" or "prepared".
Example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Fighter. I do not have any class feature or any other trait, Feat or feature which allows me to cast that spell. So, I cannot cast that spell, even though it is prepared.
Next example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Warlock. The only feature that I have available to me to cast any spells is the Pact Magic feature, and that feature does indeed provide me with some spell slots. However, the Pact Magic feature explicitly works with Warlock Spells, not Cleric Spells. It does not allow me to cast "my prepared spells" -- it allows me to cast "my Warlock spells". So, I still cannot cast this Cleric spell, even though it is prepared.
As I said before, this is exactly why the actual Feat will include its own text which declares that I can cast the spell and describes the method for doing so: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have."
The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
Are you going to argue that Fiend Patron Warlocks can't cast Burning Hands because their feature doesn't explicitly say that you can cast it with a spell slot?
[Redacted]
The Level 3 feature called "Fiend Spells" is a Warlock feature. It contains this language: "when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared."
Burning Hands, by default, is not a Warlock spell because it does not appear on the Warlock spell list.
Indeed, this Fiend Spells feature does NOT provide its own method of casting the Burning Hands spell. Therefore, if you do not actually have a trait, Feat or feature that is explicitly capable of casting this spell, then you would NOT be able to cast this spell with any of your spell slots, even though the spell is prepared.
However, as it turns out, the Warlock's Pact Magic feature says this:
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
So remember, the Fiend Spells feature is a Warlock feature. Therefore, it qualifies as a rule which can interact with the above Pact Magic feature in the manner described. This means that the Burning Hands spell becomes a Warlock spell for me. It is also prepared. So, this becomes one of "my Warlock spells". Because my Pact Magic feature is capable of casting "my Warlock spells", I can, in fact, cast my Fiend Spells version of Burning Hands by using my Pact Magic feature to do so.
Example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Fighter. I do not have any class feature or any other trait, Feat or feature which allows me to cast that spell. So, I cannot cast that spell, even though it is prepared.
for your first example - can you please explain what feat the fighter is using to gain a "cleric spell" to begin with?? because honestly unsure if this is even possible to begin with (due to feat prerequisites) and questioning why you used it as an example if situation seems unable to exist..
Next example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Warlock. The only feature that I have available to me to cast any spells is the Pact Magic feature, and that feature does indeed provide me with some spell slots. However, the Pact Magic feature explicitly works with Warlock Spells, not Cleric Spells. It does not allow me to cast "my prepared spells" -- it allows me to cast "my Warlock spells". So, I still cannot cast this Cleric spell, even though it is prepared.
again what feat are you talking about that gives a "cleric spell"?? either way, you might want to re-read pact magic considering the following: (even if you gain a so called "cleric spell" you can still use it)
Level 1: Pact Magic
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells.
anywho we may be getting off-topic considering the original post was: (seems more about spell slot use and cantrips)
Hello! Some of the spells innate for the species could be upcasted (as example, the False Life) There's a level associated tho this spells? It's always considered a 'minimum level' spell?
For example, a 7th level Tiefling casts False Life as 1st or as 4th level spell?
Also, an High Elf can choose a cantrip from Wizard List. If I choose a cantrip that scales, the casting level of the cantrip is 1 or related to the character's level?
This cantrips / spells are not related to the class, but to the character.
for your first example - can you please explain what feat the fighter is using to gain a "cleric spell" to begin with?? because honestly unsure if this is even possible to begin with (due to feat prerequisites) and questioning why you used it as an example if situation seems unable to exist..
Sure. The example is a conceptual example that is within the framework of the rules as written and is given to illustrate a particular point about how the rules work. I do not have to be talking about any specific feat and how that specific feat works -- I'm talking about what generally happens when a character takes a feat in general and how the rules work when using a Feat to cast a spell.
However, it just so happens that the Magic Initiate feat is an exact match for what I described. A Fighter can take that feat -- there are no prerequisite restrictions that I know of that would prevent this. The Magic Initiate feat can provide such a character with a Cleric spell that is always prepared. If that's all that the spell actually did, then this Fighter wouldn't be able to cast that spell. But of course, the Magic Initiate feat provides additional rules in its text that allows the Fighter to cast that spell.
As written, it's actually a bit less clear to me how such a character is able to actually cast the Cantrips that are provided by that Feat. For now, I will assume that the fact that the Feat provides an explicit Spellcasting Ability is enough to imply that you would "use" that Spellcasting Ability to cast that spell.
either way, you might want to re-read pact magic considering the following: (even if you gain a so called "cleric spell" you can still use it)
Level 1: Pact Magic
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells.
No, it doesn't work that way. You need to take that entire introductory paragraph together -- Pact Magic works with Warlock spells and only Warlock spells.
anywho we may be getting off-topic considering the original post was: (seems more about spell slot use and cantrips)
Perhaps. jl8e has already answered the original succinctly.
Yes, I agree that the first response was definitely succinct. It just wasn't fully correct. It was mostly correct though, so indeed that might be good enough for some future readers.
anywho we may be getting off-topic considering the original post was: (seems more about spell slot use and cantrips)
Perhaps. jl8e has already answered the original succinctly.
Yes, I agree that the first response was definitely succinct. It just wasn't fully correct. It was mostly correct though, so indeed that might be good enough for some future readers.
jl8e's answer was both succinct and fully accurate.
anywho we may be getting off-topic considering the original post was: (seems more about spell slot use and cantrips)
Perhaps. jl8e has already answered the original succinctly.
Yes, I agree that the first response was definitely succinct. It just wasn't fully correct. It was mostly correct though, so indeed that might be good enough for some future readers.
jl8e's answer was both succinct and fully accurate.
Hello!
Some of the spells innate for the species could be upcasted (as example, the False Life)
There's a level associated tho this spells? It's always considered a 'minimum level' spell?
For example, a 7th level Tiefling casts False Life as 1st or as 4th level spell?
Also, an High Elf can choose a cantrip from Wizard List. If I choose a cantrip that scales, the casting level of the cantrip is 1 or related to the character's level?
This cantrips / spells are not related to the class, but to the character.
Thanks!
Spells you're casting without a spell slot are cast at minimum level unless it says otherwise. (Old tieflings had Hellish Rebuke at second level.)
Cantrips don't get upcast like other spells. Instead, they have a built-in scaling effect based on character level, so they do scale.
However, all (I believe) the new feats and species features make the spell known to you, so if you have spell slots, you can use them to upcast the spell. (Before the new PHB, this was less consistent.)
This part doesn't sound quite right to me. Just because a spell is known isn't enough to guarantee that you will have a way of casting it with a spell slot. But the Feat itself will sometimes explicitly say that you can.
Let's use the Magic Initiate Feat as an example.
First of all, that Feat provides a Level 1 spell from the Cleric, Druid or Wizard spell list which is "always prepared" -- it doesn't say anything about that spell being "known" or "learned".
Next, suppose your character is a Sorcerer. You might choose a Level 1 Cleric spell with this Feat. If the Feat description ended right there, you might not have any method of casting that spell with a spell slot unless that spell happened to also be on the Sorcerer spell list, even though the Sorcerer does have spell slots to use.
However, as it turns out, that Feat includes this statement: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have." So now the Sorcerer can cast the "always prepared" Cleric spell with a spell slot by using the rules provided in this Feat to do so.
That's not true for the PHB content.
If the spell is prepared, you can cast it with spell slots.
The following Player's Handbook Feats give you always prepared spells that you can once per long rest or cast with a spell slot
Ritual Caster gives you a number of always prepared spells that you cast as a Ritual. Because they are always prepared, you can cast them with any spell slots if you don't want to wait on the ritual cast time.
There are no Feats in the 2024 PHB that give you spells that you can cast a limited number of times and aren't always prepared. There are no 2024 PHB species that give you a spell you can only cast a limited number of times without also making it always prepared.
jl8e is correct.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I agree with @jl8e and @SmiteMakesRight_3_5
I just wanted to add one more relevant rule from the "Chapter 7: Spells" related to Casting without Slots:
I forgot this part. For traits is like that, yes. If you're interested in reading about this with some examples: Class spell lists - Rules & Game Mechanics
Notice that you just drew a conclusion that does not match up with the text that you've quoted. You are making an assumption. In fact, when a spell is prepared, that does NOT automatically mean that you can cast it with a spell slot. Your trait, Feat or feature must explicitly provide a method of doing so, and using such a feature will often be dependent on which class list the spell belongs to, and so on. Just being in a "prepared" status is not enough.
For example, again, if you have a Feat that allows you to have a Cleric spell "always prepared" and that Feat does not explicitly provide its own method of casting the spell with a spell slot, and you are a Sorcerer . . . you would have no method available to you to cast that spell. That is because your Sorcerer Spellcasting feature explicitly requires the prepared spell that you cast to be one of your Sorcerer spells.
The point is, these Feats typically DO provide all of the necessary rules within the Feat itself for exactly this reason. But it's not enough to say that if a Feat makes the spell known to you then you can cast it with a spell slot. The game does not work like that.
Yes, thank you for making my point for me with this example. Notice the bolded portion above which states: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level." If this trait did NOT explicitly include this rule within its description, then you would NOT have a method of casting the spell with a spell slot unless you happened to have a Spellcasting feature which correctly matches up with the spell in question. The fact that the trait provides a spell that is always prepared is not enough to guarantee that you can cast it. The trait had to explicitly provide a method of doing so.
In other words, the fact that the spell is prepared is (usually) a prerequisite for casting the spell with a spell slot, but it's not the only prerequisite.
You have some ideas about the rules about spellcasting that are... not generally agreed with. You're already arguing them in one thread. You're bringing them over to this thread to argue a point that's irrelevant, since the features in question have the clause you say is necessary.
Since the thread is answering somebody's rules question, bringing up an irrelevant technical point is only likely to confuse the issue for the person who had the question.
This is incorrect. The point that I am making here is extremely relevant to the question that was posed in the Original Post. It is for the benefit of the one who asked the original question as well as for future readers who might have the same question. It helps them to avoid misunderstanding the rules based on the previous responses. [REDACTED]
personally think if "false life" allows you to use higher spell slots, then feel free to use a higher spell slot for it - why would gaining it via fiendish legacy change that??
in saying that based of the wording of fiendish legacy it seem:
1. one use per long rest without expanding a spell slot - "You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest."
2. if you want to use it again after that then spell slots can/must be used - "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level"
the "appropriate level" part i personally take as shorthand for - " A level 1 spell fits into a slot of any size, but a level 2 spell fits only into a slot that’s at least level 2." (from chapter 7 - spell level section)
I didn't realize you were attempting to make the assertion that you can't cast a prepared spell with spell slots.
Notice that your class is the source of spell slots, but does not limit which prepared spells you can cast with those slots.
Redundant text for clarity is nothing more than that. One feature explicitly stating that you can use spell slots to cast an always prepared spell does not inherently create a rule that you can't cast prepared spells with spell slots when it is not mentioned.
Combining Gaining Spells with Casting Spells, having a level 1+ spell prepared and having a spell slot of at least that spell's level are the only requirements to cast a spell with a spell slot.
Notice that Fiend Spells only identifies spells that are always prepared for the Warlock? Nothing more is needed.
Are you going to argue that Fiend Patron Warlocks can't cast Burning Hands because their feature doesn't explicitly say that you can cast it with a spell slot?
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No, this is not correct. It doesn't work like that.
None of the general rules that you've quoted actually give the character an ability to cast any spells. You need to have access to a trait, Feat or feature which explicitly tells you that you can cast spells -- otherwise, you can't.
The most common features which provide a method for casting a spell with a spell slot are the various Spellcasting features and the Pact Magic feature. But each of those features requires for the spell in question to be a certain type of spell, otherwise you cannot use that feature to cast that spell, even if it is a prepared spell.
This is why the Feats will provide an explicit rule of its own which states that you can cast a spell, and it gives you the rules for how to do so when using the Feat. Without that language, there are situations where you cannot cast the spell. It's not enough for the Feat to simply state that the spell is "known" or "prepared".
Example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Fighter. I do not have any class feature or any other trait, Feat or feature which allows me to cast that spell. So, I cannot cast that spell, even though it is prepared.
Next example: A feat provides me with a Cleric spell (which is only a Cleric spell) that is "always prepared". The feat doesn't say anything else about how to cast that spell. I am a Warlock. The only feature that I have available to me to cast any spells is the Pact Magic feature, and that feature does indeed provide me with some spell slots. However, the Pact Magic feature explicitly works with Warlock Spells, not Cleric Spells. It does not allow me to cast "my prepared spells" -- it allows me to cast "my Warlock spells". So, I still cannot cast this Cleric spell, even though it is prepared.
As I said before, this is exactly why the actual Feat will include its own text which declares that I can cast the spell and describes the method for doing so: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have."
[Redacted]
The Level 3 feature called "Fiend Spells" is a Warlock feature. It contains this language: "when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared."
Burning Hands, by default, is not a Warlock spell because it does not appear on the Warlock spell list.
Indeed, this Fiend Spells feature does NOT provide its own method of casting the Burning Hands spell. Therefore, if you do not actually have a trait, Feat or feature that is explicitly capable of casting this spell, then you would NOT be able to cast this spell with any of your spell slots, even though the spell is prepared.
However, as it turns out, the Warlock's Pact Magic feature says this:
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
So remember, the Fiend Spells feature is a Warlock feature. Therefore, it qualifies as a rule which can interact with the above Pact Magic feature in the manner described. This means that the Burning Hands spell becomes a Warlock spell for me. It is also prepared. So, this becomes one of "my Warlock spells". Because my Pact Magic feature is capable of casting "my Warlock spells", I can, in fact, cast my Fiend Spells version of Burning Hands by using my Pact Magic feature to do so.
for your first example - can you please explain what feat the fighter is using to gain a "cleric spell" to begin with??
because honestly unsure if this is even possible to begin with (due to feat prerequisites) and questioning why you used it as an example if situation seems unable to exist..
again what feat are you talking about that gives a "cleric spell"??
either way, you might want to re-read pact magic considering the following: (even if you gain a so called "cleric spell" you can still use it)
Level 1: Pact Magic
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells.
anywho we may be getting off-topic considering the original post was: (seems more about spell slot use and cantrips)
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Sure. The example is a conceptual example that is within the framework of the rules as written and is given to illustrate a particular point about how the rules work. I do not have to be talking about any specific feat and how that specific feat works -- I'm talking about what generally happens when a character takes a feat in general and how the rules work when using a Feat to cast a spell.
However, it just so happens that the Magic Initiate feat is an exact match for what I described. A Fighter can take that feat -- there are no prerequisite restrictions that I know of that would prevent this. The Magic Initiate feat can provide such a character with a Cleric spell that is always prepared. If that's all that the spell actually did, then this Fighter wouldn't be able to cast that spell. But of course, the Magic Initiate feat provides additional rules in its text that allows the Fighter to cast that spell.
As written, it's actually a bit less clear to me how such a character is able to actually cast the Cantrips that are provided by that Feat. For now, I will assume that the fact that the Feat provides an explicit Spellcasting Ability is enough to imply that you would "use" that Spellcasting Ability to cast that spell.
No, it doesn't work that way. You need to take that entire introductory paragraph together -- Pact Magic works with Warlock spells and only Warlock spells.
true true
suggest all future readers refer to that response and avoid the rabbit hole following it
Yes, I agree that the first response was definitely succinct. It just wasn't fully correct. It was mostly correct though, so indeed that might be good enough for some future readers.
jl8e's answer was both succinct and fully accurate.
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Oh, ok. I guess you're right.
Thanks a lot!!!