The shaowmonk movement thread got me thinking as I read the movement around creatures rules again.
It was probably the same in 2014, but I never thought about the last paragraph in the moving around creatures section.
"You can’t willingly end a move in a space occupied by another creature. If you somehow end a turn in a space with another creature, you have the Prone condition (see the rules glossary) unless you are Tiny or are of a larger size than the other creature."
You can't willingly move into a space occupied, which means to me you can unwillingly. And its end a turn, not your turn. So if I am reading that right, forced movement into another creatures space usually comes with a auto prone effect at the end of the forced movement. Now do both of them fall, just the one shoved in seems implied to me, but I think the wording is they both fall if they don't meet the exceptions. If only the one shoved falls and in the circumstance where the creature whose square you got shoved into does not move for some reason, if you are still in their square do they fall at the end of the next turn, at the end of theirs as that was when they first had a chance to try and move.
I wonder about compelled movement that uses your movement like flee effects that don't have language about avoiding hazards do they run into the square and fall prone? You can't move through the square, but can you move into it against your will, with shove style effects the answer seems to be yes but flee style ones, not so sure.
I always had ran it that they land the square away from the creature and not in the square of the creature for shove effects, shortening the shove by 5' effectively. But I am not sure that is right now.
Since they removed the squeezing rules in 5e2024, they likely replaced it with the Prone condition. Either way this is highly subjective and would be up to the DM.
I can see some situations where tossing person A into person B's square might require a roll from person B or be knocked prone (for example, what if Person A is dropped from 50' up onto Person B). I can also see situations where the DM might rule that both temporarily remain standing in the same square (effectively squeezing) but whichever one doesn't choose to move out during their turn, becomes prone.
There are so many other situations as well, that ultimately I think this just comes down to 'ask the DM'.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
So if I am reading that right, forced movement into another creatures space usually comes with a auto prone effect at the end of the forced movement. Now do both of them fall, just the one shoved in seems implied to me, but I think the wording is they both fall if they don't meet the exceptions.
That seems to be how it would go, per RAW. If you use the Telekinetic feat to shove one Medium creature into another, they'd both end up prone at the end of your turn
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Regarding the OP, to me, the rule means that if, for example, your character is pushed and ends their turn in a space occupied by another creature, hey have the Prone condition.
Now, that another creature somehow also ended a turn in the same space so it would have the Prone condition too.
Part of the old Squeeze rules have been squeezed into Difficult Terrain;
A narrow opening sized for a creature one size smaller than you
I agree.
According to the sidebar "What's new in the 2024 Version?", on p. 5:
If you can't find a rule, check the index. If a rule's name has changed from what was printed in the 2014 Player's Handbook, the index points you to the new name. For example, if you look up Inspiration in the index, it points you to the rules for Heroic Inspiration in the rules glossary.
And we can still find the term squeezing in the index on p. 383:
The shaowmonk movement thread got me thinking as I read the movement around creatures rules again.
It was probably the same in 2014, but I never thought about the last paragraph in the moving around creatures section.
"You can’t willingly end a move in a space occupied by another creature. If you somehow end a turn in a space with another creature, you have the Prone condition (see the rules glossary) unless you are Tiny or are of a larger size than the other creature."
You can't willingly move into a space occupied, which means to me you can unwillingly. And its end a turn, not your turn. So if I am reading that right, forced movement into another creatures space usually comes with a auto prone effect at the end of the forced movement. Now do both of them fall, just the one shoved in seems implied to me, but I think the wording is they both fall if they don't meet the exceptions. If only the one shoved falls and in the circumstance where the creature whose square you got shoved into does not move for some reason, if you are still in their square do they fall at the end of the next turn, at the end of theirs as that was when they first had a chance to try and move.
I read it as saying that if you (the one that was moved) end the turn in another creature's space, you become prone.
It's not a 100% interpretation, but I think the context favors it. (It is describing the consequences for moving. The other creature is not moving.)
(Also, if it wanted to say you both get proned, it could have, and it does not.)
If they don't move on their turn, then they never moved, so it would not cause them to fall.
It also clearly applies the end of any turn, so if you do read it as affecting both, both fall at the same time.
I wonder about compelled movement that uses your movement like flee effects that don't have language about avoiding hazards do they run into the square and fall prone? You can't move through the square, but can you move into it against your will, with shove style effects the answer seems to be yes but flee style ones, not so sure.
You still have control over your move when fleeing, so can't enter another creature's space.
I always had ran it that they land the square away from the creature and not in the square of the creature for shove effects, shortening the shove by 5' effectively. But I am not sure that is right now.
The same questions could be raised for willing movement. Suppose I am currently moving through my ally's space with the intention of continuing on to an unoccupied space beyond before ending my move and turn. But right as I am in my ally's space I experience some sort of effect which reduces my Speed to 0 -- for example, like how the 2014 Sentinel Feat was worded (I'm not sure about how many of the 2024 Feats are worded).
Does this cause my Ally to become prone along with me?
I hadn't thought about getting dropped to 0 movement when moving through an allies square, but it would read to me like both would fall. I feel like this is not the intent. I think I will run it as the person moving falls, the person already in the square will fall if they don't move on their turn.
It should be like that: both would have the Prone condition, because in that case, "you somehow end a turn in a space with another creature," probably unwillingly on your part.
A DM might rule it differently, tough.
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The shaowmonk movement thread got me thinking as I read the movement around creatures rules again.
It was probably the same in 2014, but I never thought about the last paragraph in the moving around creatures section.
"You can’t willingly end a move in a space occupied by another creature. If you somehow end a turn in a space with another creature, you have the Prone condition (see the rules glossary) unless you are Tiny or are of a larger size than the other creature."
You can't willingly move into a space occupied, which means to me you can unwillingly. And its end a turn, not your turn. So if I am reading that right, forced movement into another creatures space usually comes with a auto prone effect at the end of the forced movement. Now do both of them fall, just the one shoved in seems implied to me, but I think the wording is they both fall if they don't meet the exceptions. If only the one shoved falls and in the circumstance where the creature whose square you got shoved into does not move for some reason, if you are still in their square do they fall at the end of the next turn, at the end of theirs as that was when they first had a chance to try and move.
I wonder about compelled movement that uses your movement like flee effects that don't have language about avoiding hazards do they run into the square and fall prone? You can't move through the square, but can you move into it against your will, with shove style effects the answer seems to be yes but flee style ones, not so sure.
I always had ran it that they land the square away from the creature and not in the square of the creature for shove effects, shortening the shove by 5' effectively. But I am not sure that is right now.
I believe its unclear enought to be open to different interpretations if it means your turn or the current turn.
The question is, when someone else takes a turn, do you start and end a turn?
Since they removed the squeezing rules in 5e2024, they likely replaced it with the Prone condition. Either way this is highly subjective and would be up to the DM.
I can see some situations where tossing person A into person B's square might require a roll from person B or be knocked prone (for example, what if Person A is dropped from 50' up onto Person B). I can also see situations where the DM might rule that both temporarily remain standing in the same square (effectively squeezing) but whichever one doesn't choose to move out during their turn, becomes prone.
There are so many other situations as well, that ultimately I think this just comes down to 'ask the DM'.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Part of the old Squeeze rules have been squeezed into Difficult Terrain;
That seems to be how it would go, per RAW. If you use the Telekinetic feat to shove one Medium creature into another, they'd both end up prone at the end of your turn
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Regarding the OP, to me, the rule means that if, for example, your character is pushed and ends their turn in a space occupied by another creature, hey have the Prone condition.
Now, that another creature somehow also ended a turn in the same space so it would have the Prone condition too.
I mean, that "a turn" should matter in the ruling, similar to how some spells are worded (ex. Cordon of Arrows, Guardian of Faith or Sleet Storm)
EDIT: I didn’t see @AntonSirius's answer earlier. I had this window open in my browser without refreshing it.
I agree.
According to the sidebar "What's new in the 2024 Version?", on p. 5:
And we can still find the term squeezing in the index on p. 383:
There's a related thread here: Squeeze, please?
I read it as saying that if you (the one that was moved) end the turn in another creature's space, you become prone.
It's not a 100% interpretation, but I think the context favors it. (It is describing the consequences for moving. The other creature is not moving.)
(Also, if it wanted to say you both get proned, it could have, and it does not.)
If they don't move on their turn, then they never moved, so it would not cause them to fall.
It also clearly applies the end of any turn, so if you do read it as affecting both, both fall at the same time.
You still have control over your move when fleeing, so can't enter another creature's space.
It does look like that.
The same questions could be raised for willing movement. Suppose I am currently moving through my ally's space with the intention of continuing on to an unoccupied space beyond before ending my move and turn. But right as I am in my ally's space I experience some sort of effect which reduces my Speed to 0 -- for example, like how the 2014 Sentinel Feat was worded (I'm not sure about how many of the 2024 Feats are worded).
Does this cause my Ally to become prone along with me?
I hadn't thought about getting dropped to 0 movement when moving through an allies square, but it would read to me like both would fall. I feel like this is not the intent. I think I will run it as the person moving falls, the person already in the square will fall if they don't move on their turn.
A DM might rule it differently, tough.