I was going through the 2024 rules, and looking at the Monk class (one of my favorites) and found something very odd.
In the new rules, Difficult Terrain is defined as (in part): any space occupied by a creature that isn't tiny or your ally (Glossary: p. 366 in the PHB, I think). Under the Shadow Monk, at level 17 you get the feature Cloak of Shadows, which says (in part) that you get the feature Partially Incorporeal: "You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain".
This makes no sense to me. Any space occupied by a creature that isn't tiny, or an ally, is already Difficult Terrain so this feature does nothing there. But, what it does do, is turn any space occupied by a tiny creature or an ally into Difficult Terrain also! That makes this feature seem more like a penalty than a benefit!
Does anyone understand the reasoning behind this? Or is this simply a goof by WoTC in the 2024 rules? Does this feature cry out for Errata? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
It let the Shadow Monk move through the space of an enemies, regardless of size or conditions, as normally otherwise this:
Moving around Other Creatures
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
It also let the Shadow Monk move through the space occupied by objects among other things, such as a wall or large furniture for exemple, where it's otherwise impossible.
Yes, it lets the monk move through any occupied space. But, as Difficult Terrain, just as the definition of Difficult Terrain already allows. That includes furniture, since the definition says that any furniture your size or larger is Difficult Terrain. And, in that case, the feature imposes a penalty: furniture that is smaller than your size would be normal terrain, except that the Partially Incorporealfeature would now turn that into Difficult Terrain.
So, essentially spaces occupied by a creature that is tiny or an ally, or furniture smaller than your size would normally not be Difficult Terrain and allow free movement, but the Partially Incorporeal feature now turns that into Difficult Terrain!!
It let the Shadow Monk move through the space of an enemies, regardless of size or conditions, as normally otherwise this:
Moving around Other Creatures
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Yes, as Difficult Terrain whereas otherwise it would normal terrain.
It also let the Shadow Monk move through the space occupied by objects among other things, such as a wall or large furniture for exemple, where it's otherwise impossible.
1) There's nothing in the feature suggesting the monk can walk through walls
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain. If you end your turn in such a space, you are shunted to the last unoccupied space you were in.
A space is Difficult Terrain if the space contains any of the following or something similar:
A creature that isn’t Tiny or your ally
Furniture that is sized for creatures of your size or larger
Heavy snow, ice, rubble, or undergrowth
Liquid that’s between shin- and waist-deep
A narrow opening sized for a creature one size smaller than you
A slope of 20 degrees or more
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No one can move through a space occupied by enemies not Incapacitated unless of Size Tiny or two sizes larger or smaller than you as well as spaces completely filled by objects. For example, a Medium sized Human can't normally move throught a space occupied by objects or enemies of Small, Medium or Large size.
But if Shadow Monk L17 it can.
Occupied Space
A space is occupied if a creature is in it or if it is completely filled by objects.
As an Halfling you also can move through the space of any creature that is a size larger than you, such as an enemy. For example, a Small sized Halfling can move throught a space occupied by enemies of Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge or Gargantuan size.
In comparison, a Small sized Gnome can move throught a space occupied by enemies of Tiny, Small (if Incapacitated), Medium (if Incapacitated), Large, Huge or Gargantuan size.
No one can move through a space occupied by enemies not Incapacitated or Size Tiny or two sizes larger or smaller than you
The Rules Glossary disagrees with you
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If it was the case, what is then the purpose of Halfling Nimbleness ?
An excellent question. It's almost like the particular rule you're trying to defend is poorly written or something
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The prone condition doesn’t override the rule that prevents you from moving through an enemy’s space, unless that enemy is at least two sizes larger or two sizes smaller than you.
If you do move through the space of another creature—whether a friend or an enemy—the space is difficult terrain for you, and you can’t willingly end your move there. See the Player’s Handbook, (PHB "Movement and Position"), for more on movement in combat.
No it doesn't. The rule formoving around other creatures say that you cannot move through the space of another creature of a similar size. That same rule, and the rule for difficult terrain also defines the creatures space as being difficult terrain. Those rules does not contradict each other, they compliment each other.
For most situations the rule that makes it difficult terrain has no use because the creature cannot move through the space at all but for a creature that has a special rule that lets them move through the space (such as Halflings), or for situations with differing creature sizes it then come into effect.
Writing the rules this way means that they don't need to have features like Halfling Nimbleness specify that the movement they allow is difficult terrain because the general rules already do that.
No it doesn't. The rule formoving around other creatures say that you cannot move through the space of another creature of a similar size. That same rule, and the rule for difficult terrain also defines the creatures space as being difficult terrain. Those rules does not contradict each other, they compliment each other.
The movement rules actually don't say that
Moving around Other Creatures
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
The Rules Glossary especially doesn't say that, since it ditches the entire first sentence of that section
They certainly imply that you cannot move through the space of an un-Incapacitated enemy, but they don't actually say it... and then they provide rules for doing it, by designating the spaces of enemy creatures as Difficult Terrain. If you can't move through them at all, it's not Difficult Terrain, it's Impassable Terrain
Rules do what they say they do. "Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally."
I don't think anyone here disagrees on what the RAI is supposed to be, but they made a hash of it in the RAW
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No it doesn't. The rule formoving around other creatures say that you cannot move through the space of another creature of a similar size. That same rule, and the rule for difficult terrain also defines the creatures space as being difficult terrain. Those rules does not contradict each other, they compliment each other.
The movement rules actually don't say that
Moving around Other Creatures
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
The Rules Glossary especially doesn't say that, since it ditches the entire first sentence of that section
They certainly imply that you cannot move through the space of an un-Incapacitated enemy, but they don't actually say it... and then they provide rules for doing it, by designating the spaces of enemy creatures as Difficult Terrain. If you can't move through them at all, it's not Difficult Terrain, it's Impassable Terrain
Rules do what they say they do. "Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally."
I don't think anyone here disagrees on what the RAI is supposed to be, but they made a hash of it in the RAW
And if you can pass through it, it's Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
Such rules as written don't just imply but rule out what does not specify that it can.
No, that's you making an assumption. The first sentence of the movement rules is silent on the subject -- you just assume that omission means you can't do it. The rules never say that though
The Movement rules don't say you can't do it, and tell you that the space counts as Difficult Terrain
The Rules Glossary -- the thing most people are going to look at first, because that's the entire reason it exists -- dispenses with the implied "you can't do it" part and just says the squares of any creature that aren't Tiny or an ally are Difficult Terrain. So most people looking for guidance are going to go to the Glossary and think, "Oh, enemy squares count as Difficult Terrain". Which is literally how this thread started
Again -- the RAI is pretty clear, but the RAW simply doesn't get there
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
5E rules are exception based design describing what you can do and creating exceptions that supercede general rules.
For exemple you can move before or after taking an action. Another rules let you move between attacks during the Attack Action. Can you move between attacks during the Magic Action?
Incorporeal Movement. The wraith can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) Force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.
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I was going through the 2024 rules, and looking at the Monk class (one of my favorites) and found something very odd.
In the new rules, Difficult Terrain is defined as (in part): any space occupied by a creature that isn't tiny or your ally (Glossary: p. 366 in the PHB, I think). Under the Shadow Monk, at level 17 you get the feature Cloak of Shadows, which says (in part) that you get the feature Partially Incorporeal: "You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain".
This makes no sense to me. Any space occupied by a creature that isn't tiny, or an ally, is already Difficult Terrain so this feature does nothing there. But, what it does do, is turn any space occupied by a tiny creature or an ally into Difficult Terrain also! That makes this feature seem more like a penalty than a benefit!
Does anyone understand the reasoning behind this? Or is this simply a goof by WoTC in the 2024 rules? Does this feature cry out for Errata? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
It let the Shadow Monk move through the space of an enemies, regardless of size or conditions, as normally otherwise this:
It also let the Shadow Monk move through the space occupied by objects among other things, such as a wall or large furniture for exemple, where it's otherwise impossible.
Yes, it lets the monk move through any occupied space. But, as Difficult Terrain, just as the definition of Difficult Terrain already allows. That includes furniture, since the definition says that any furniture your size or larger is Difficult Terrain. And, in that case, the feature imposes a penalty: furniture that is smaller than your size would be normal terrain, except that the Partially Incorporeal feature would now turn that into Difficult Terrain.
So, essentially spaces occupied by a creature that is tiny or an ally, or furniture smaller than your size would normally not be Difficult Terrain and allow free movement, but the Partially Incorporeal feature now turns that into Difficult Terrain!!
Yes, as Difficult Terrain whereas otherwise it would normal terrain.
1) There's nothing in the feature suggesting the monk can walk through walls
2) You may want to take a look at the general 2024 Difficult Terrain rules again
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No one can move through a space occupied by enemies not Incapacitated unless of Size Tiny or two sizes larger or smaller than you as well as spaces completely filled by objects. For example, a Medium sized Human can't normally move throught a space occupied by objects or enemies of Small, Medium or Large size.
But if Shadow Monk L17 it can.
As an Halfling you also can move through the space of any creature that is a size larger than you, such as an enemy. For example, a Small sized Halfling can move throught a space occupied by enemies of Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge or Gargantuan size.
In comparison, a Small sized Gnome can move throught a space occupied by enemies of Tiny, Small (if Incapacitated), Medium (if Incapacitated), Large, Huge or Gargantuan size.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To my understanding, here's the difference;
A space containing furniture that is sized for creature of smaller size than you is an unoccupied space that is not Difficult Terrain.
A space containing furniture that is sized for creature of your size or larger is an unoccupied space that is Difficult Terrain.
A space containing furniture completely filling it is an occupied space.
Where? If it was the case, what is then the purpose of Halfling Nimbleness ?
I see i corrected typo, i mean not or but unless of.
The words are right above. I can't force you to read them
An excellent question. It's almost like the particular rule you're trying to defend is poorly written or something
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
2014 Moving Around Other Creatures and Halfling Nimbleness is like that too. (barring Incapacitated & Tiny which is part of revision 2024)
There's even a Sage Advice Compendium on the subject;
No it doesn't. The rule for moving around other creatures say that you cannot move through the space of another creature of a similar size. That same rule, and the rule for difficult terrain also defines the creatures space as being difficult terrain. Those rules does not contradict each other, they compliment each other.
For most situations the rule that makes it difficult terrain has no use because the creature cannot move through the space at all but for a creature that has a special rule that lets them move through the space (such as Halflings), or for situations with differing creature sizes it then come into effect.
Writing the rules this way means that they don't need to have features like Halfling Nimbleness specify that the movement they allow is difficult terrain because the general rules already do that.
The movement rules actually don't say that
The Rules Glossary especially doesn't say that, since it ditches the entire first sentence of that section
They certainly imply that you cannot move through the space of an un-Incapacitated enemy, but they don't actually say it... and then they provide rules for doing it, by designating the spaces of enemy creatures as Difficult Terrain. If you can't move through them at all, it's not Difficult Terrain, it's Impassable Terrain
Rules do what they say they do. "Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally."
I don't think anyone here disagrees on what the RAI is supposed to be, but they made a hash of it in the RAW
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The rules for Moving around Other Creatures describe what space you can pass through during your move.
And if you can pass through it, it's Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
Such rules as written don't just imply but rule out what does not specify that it can.
No, that's you making an assumption. The first sentence of the movement rules is silent on the subject -- you just assume that omission means you can't do it. The rules never say that though
The Movement rules don't say you can't do it, and tell you that the space counts as Difficult Terrain
The Rules Glossary -- the thing most people are going to look at first, because that's the entire reason it exists -- dispenses with the implied "you can't do it" part and just says the squares of any creature that aren't Tiny or an ally are Difficult Terrain. So most people looking for guidance are going to go to the Glossary and think, "Oh, enemy squares count as Difficult Terrain". Which is literally how this thread started
Again -- the RAI is pretty clear, but the RAW simply doesn't get there
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
5E rules are exception based design describing what you can do and creating exceptions that supercede general rules.
For exemple you can move before or after taking an action. Another rules let you move between attacks during the Attack Action. Can you move between attacks during the Magic Action?
An example of Exceptions Supersede General Rules similar to Partially Incorporeal is the Incorporeal Movement of monsters such as the Wraith;