Alright, I've just got a question on the use of Meta Magic Twinned Spell. Does it work on Shatter since it hits a target and erupts outward in a ten-foot radius?
No. If I recall, Shatter targets a point and not a creature. Twinned Spell works only for spells that targets a creature.
Ice Knife can be twinned and would offer a similar effect that you might be trying to achieve.
Actually, ice knife is probably not allowed to be twinned. Twin spell only works on spells that can only possibly target one creature. Since ice knife has the effect where it turns into an AoE after it hits, it can hit more than one creature. That’s the thing is it’s not that it only targets one creature, it’s that it can only possibly target one creature. So you can’t, for example twin fireball even if you make it so only one creature is in the area. In the SAC about twinning, it says one of the things that would disqualify a spell is:
The spell can force more than one creature to make a saving throw before the spell’s duration expires.
And since ice knife can potentially force a save from multiple creatures, it would not qualify for twinning.
Beyond that, I agree that shatter is right out. All AoE spells are out.
Thank you for the clarification. I see the point, the exploding shards makes an AoE spell. The targeted range attack on a creature is more of a bonus act of the spell; I read this incorrectly and interpreted as a targeted attack. But it makes sense, especially when the cold damage and not the piecing damage is what increases with the spell level.
The text from the rules is pretty clear ... neither shatter nor ice knife would qualify for Twin metamagic.
"Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are."
The spell has to target only one creature, NOT have a range of self, AND must be incapable of targeting more than one creature. Neither Shatter nor Ice Knife fit those requirements.
is incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level
If you know this rule yet are still unsure whether a particular spell qualifies for Twinned Spell, consult with your DM, who has the final say. If the two of you are curious about our design intent, here is the list of things that disqualify a spell for us:
The spell has a range of self.
The spell can target an object.
The spell allows you to choose more than one creature to be affected by it, particularly at the level you’re casting the spell. Some spells increase their number of potential targets when you cast them at a higher level.
The spell can force more than one creature to make a saving throw before the spell’s duration expires.
The spell lets you make a roll of any kind that can affect more than one creature before the spell’s duration expires"
I believe that was the ruling from JC, however I tend to disagree.
Ice Knife does target only one creature. "You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range." Yes, there is a component that has an AoE effect, however I argue that the spell itself only targets one creature. If there was no other creature within that 5 ft radius could you then twin it simply because it would absolutely only target one creature in that instance? I think JC in this instance is being overly pedantic. I get not twinning Fireball or Cloud Kill, but Ice Knife to me seems to fall perfectly into what a twinnable spell would be. Also, it is not even overpowered if you do twin it. I allow it at my table.
I also allow players to twin Dragon's Breath. It is a lot of fun and isn't overpowered at all. It was never something that happened every battle because it just wasn't that strong, but it happened enough to kind of be a fun combo when it did happen.
Of course your DM is allowed to rule it as JC did (RAI instead of RAW), but I will always argue that the Rules as Written when Twinned Spell states "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature..." that it is using the language of the game, in which a spell will tell you if it targets one creature or not. Ice Knife specifically states one creature and Dragon's Breath states "You touch one willing creature". If the rule on twinning requires you to look at all of the consequences of a spell then you wouldn't be able to twin True Polymorph because some creatures have abilities that are AoE and can affect multiple creatures. You wouldn't be able to twin Dominate Monster because the monster you dominate could then attack other creatures and cause more damage than just to the initial target. And those limitations just seem silly to me.
"You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 piercing damage. Hit or miss, the shard then explodes. The target and each creature within 5 feet of it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 cold damage."
At Higher Levels.When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.
Ice Knife targets one creature the subsequent blast is a result of that initial attack. So, I've always seen this as a single target spell that has an AoE. You can rule it as you see fit but I tend to prefer my interpretation.
"You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 piercing damage. Hit or miss, the shard then explodes. The target and each creature within 5 feet of it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 cold damage."
At Higher Levels.When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.
Ice Knife targets one creature the subsequent blast is a result of that initial attack. So, I've always seen this as a single target spell that has an AoE. You can rule it as you see fit but I tend to prefer my interpretation.
Ice Knife cannot be twinned with the 2024 version of Twinned Spell. Under the 2014 version of Twinned Spell, with the clarification from Sage Advice, Ice Knife is not valid.
This thread was about the 2014 version of the ability. If you wish to discuss the 2024 version of the ability, a new thread might be in order.
Ice Knife targets one creature the subsequent blast is a result of that initial attack. So, I've always seen this as a single target spell that has an AoE. You can rule it as you see fit but I tend to prefer my interpretation.
Just so you're aware, under the 2014 Twinned Spell, your interpretation is exactly opposite the intention of the game's designers. (2024 Twinned is different and not being discussed in this thread.)
Ice Knife targets one creature the subsequent blast is a result of that initial attack. So, I've always seen this as a single target spell that has an AoE. You can rule it as you see fit but I tend to prefer my interpretation.
Just so you're aware, under the 2014 Twinned Spell, your interpretation is exactly opposite the intention of the game's designers. (2024 Twinned is different and not being discussed in this thread.)
I rule it the same way as Scrutch does at my table. Sure it is apparently against RAI, but me having to adjudicate every spell a player wants to twin by looking at potential outcomes rather than just a blanket rule of "hey, does it target a single creature at that level? Yeah? Then it can be twinned," makes my life easier and, honestly, makes the game more fun for my players.
The RAI is just too limiting, IMO, for 2014, and too open to interpretation. Can you twin Dragon's Breath (the spell, not the dragon's racial feature)? RAI no, because it will allow for the spell to effect multiple creatures. But then what about Polymorph? Also no? Because whatever form you polymorph them in to will be doing things that effect more creatures. It's just kind of meh for me. In this case I prefer to run Twinned Spell RAW over RAI, but of course that's my personal preference as DM and the designers have made it clear their intent (even if they didn't do a good job explaining that intent in the actual written rules).
For 2024 obviously none of this applies, as they totally reworked how Twinned Spell works, and honestly I'm not a huge fan of the change as I feel it makes Twinned Spell far less versatile than it was before, but overall it is probably more balanced that way.
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Alright, I've just got a question on the use of Meta Magic Twinned Spell. Does it work on Shatter since it hits a target and erupts outward in a ten-foot radius?
No. If I recall, Shatter targets a point and not a creature. Twinned Spell works only for spells that targets a creature.
Ice Knife can be twinned and would offer a similar effect that you might be trying to achieve.(edited to reflect accurate reading of game rules)Actually, ice knife is probably not allowed to be twinned. Twin spell only works on spells that can only possibly target one creature. Since ice knife has the effect where it turns into an AoE after it hits, it can hit more than one creature. That’s the thing is it’s not that it only targets one creature, it’s that it can only possibly target one creature. So you can’t, for example twin fireball even if you make it so only one creature is in the area.
In the SAC about twinning, it says one of the things that would disqualify a spell is:
And since ice knife can potentially force a save from multiple creatures, it would not qualify for twinning.
Beyond that, I agree that shatter is right out. All AoE spells are out.
Thank you for the clarification. I see the point, the exploding shards makes an AoE spell. The targeted range attack on a creature is more of a bonus act of the spell; I read this incorrectly and interpreted as a targeted attack. But it makes sense, especially when the cold damage and not the piecing damage is what increases with the spell level.
Again, thanks for clarifying. Cheers!
The text from the rules is pretty clear ... neither shatter nor ice knife would qualify for Twin metamagic.
"Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are."
The spell has to target only one creature, NOT have a range of self, AND must be incapable of targeting more than one creature. Neither Shatter nor Ice Knife fit those requirements.
The sage advice compendium adds the following clarifications ( https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA244 )
"Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell to affect a particular spell?
You can use Twinned Spell on a spell that …
If you know this rule yet are still unsure whether a particular spell qualifies for Twinned Spell, consult with your DM, who has the final say. If the two of you are curious about our design intent, here is the list of things that disqualify a spell for us:
Alright, here's another question regarding the Twinned Meta Magic. If you're below level 5 can Eldritch Blast be twinned?
I’d rule yes. But it will be a DM call.
See the earlier message which includes the line "is incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level".
If you are below level 5 then eldritch blast can only target one creature, so it can be twinned.
I believe that was the ruling from JC, however I tend to disagree.
Ice Knife does target only one creature. "You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range." Yes, there is a component that has an AoE effect, however I argue that the spell itself only targets one creature. If there was no other creature within that 5 ft radius could you then twin it simply because it would absolutely only target one creature in that instance? I think JC in this instance is being overly pedantic. I get not twinning Fireball or Cloud Kill, but Ice Knife to me seems to fall perfectly into what a twinnable spell would be. Also, it is not even overpowered if you do twin it. I allow it at my table.
I also allow players to twin Dragon's Breath. It is a lot of fun and isn't overpowered at all. It was never something that happened every battle because it just wasn't that strong, but it happened enough to kind of be a fun combo when it did happen.
Of course your DM is allowed to rule it as JC did (RAI instead of RAW), but I will always argue that the Rules as Written when Twinned Spell states "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature..." that it is using the language of the game, in which a spell will tell you if it targets one creature or not. Ice Knife specifically states one creature and Dragon's Breath states "You touch one willing creature". If the rule on twinning requires you to look at all of the consequences of a spell then you wouldn't be able to twin True Polymorph because some creatures have abilities that are AoE and can affect multiple creatures. You wouldn't be able to twin Dominate Monster because the monster you dominate could then attack other creatures and cause more damage than just to the initial target. And those limitations just seem silly to me.
YMMV
Okay. Here is a new question. Tempest Cleric's Destructive Wraith plus Transmutation metamagic. Is this broken?
"You create a shard of ice and fling it at one creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 piercing damage. Hit or miss, the shard then explodes. The target and each creature within 5 feet of it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d6 cold damage."
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the cold damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.
Ice Knife targets one creature the subsequent blast is a result of that initial attack. So, I've always seen this as a single target spell that has an AoE. You can rule it as you see fit but I tend to prefer my interpretation.
Ice Knife cannot be twinned with the 2024 version of Twinned Spell. Under the 2014 version of Twinned Spell, with the clarification from Sage Advice, Ice Knife is not valid.
This thread was about the 2014 version of the ability. If you wish to discuss the 2024 version of the ability, a new thread might be in order.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA244
Just so you're aware, under the 2014 Twinned Spell, your interpretation is exactly opposite the intention of the game's designers. (2024 Twinned is different and not being discussed in this thread.)
I rule it the same way as Scrutch does at my table. Sure it is apparently against RAI, but me having to adjudicate every spell a player wants to twin by looking at potential outcomes rather than just a blanket rule of "hey, does it target a single creature at that level? Yeah? Then it can be twinned," makes my life easier and, honestly, makes the game more fun for my players.
The RAI is just too limiting, IMO, for 2014, and too open to interpretation. Can you twin Dragon's Breath (the spell, not the dragon's racial feature)? RAI no, because it will allow for the spell to effect multiple creatures. But then what about Polymorph? Also no? Because whatever form you polymorph them in to will be doing things that effect more creatures. It's just kind of meh for me. In this case I prefer to run Twinned Spell RAW over RAI, but of course that's my personal preference as DM and the designers have made it clear their intent (even if they didn't do a good job explaining that intent in the actual written rules).
For 2024 obviously none of this applies, as they totally reworked how Twinned Spell works, and honestly I'm not a huge fan of the change as I feel it makes Twinned Spell far less versatile than it was before, but overall it is probably more balanced that way.