I'll lay out the scenario just to give a bit of context:
I wanted to create a PC that dual wields shields as his weapons. He has sworn off bladed weapons for TRAGIC BACKSTORY reasons.
Obviously dual wielding shields is suboptimal, but that's ok for me. I know that I don't get the additional AC from the second shield (can only benefit from one shield) and they are treated as Improvised Weapons, doing 1d4 bludgeoning damage.
If I take the Tavern Brawler Feat, Dual Wilder Feat, and play a Variant Human Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, I believe that:
I can add my proficiency bonus to attacks with the shields (Tavern Brawler)
I can use my bonus action for the Two Weapon Fighting attack (Dual Wielder feat taking away the "light" requirement for weapons for TWF)
I can add my ability modifier (STR) to the damage of my bonus action attack (Two-Weapon Fighting Style)
Get an additional +1 to AC due to the Dual Wielder Feat.
Therefore at Level 7 I could attack 3 times per round (Attack, Extra Attack, Bonus Action TWF attack), and add proficiency to all attacks and STR bonus to all damage.
However, this DOESN'T WORK if Improvised Weapons don't count as Melee Weapons.
Dual Wielder says:
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
Two Weapon Fighting (the rule) states:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a lightmelee weaponthat you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different lightmelee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
The Two-Weapon Fighting Style from Fighter merely removes the "light" requirement.
So is the character build I have laid out RAW? Or do Improvised Weapons not count as "melee weapons" for interacting with Feats, Class Features, etc.
All this seems legit. I believe the official ruling is a "melee weapon" is any weapon you use in melee using your melee attack bonus. So, like, while you could use a bow in melee, you'd be using your ranged attack bonus, making it a ranged weapon. But if you improvised and hit some dude with your bow, then (aside from ruining your bow) you would use your melee attack bonus and it would count as a melee weapon.
Honestly, I'd talk to your DM about the damage of the shield. The rule specifically states it deals 1d4 damage if the object "bears no resemblance to a weapon." I dunno... maybe you could make a case that it bears a resemblance to a weapon? In 3e, you could put spikes on your shield and it would count as an exotic weapon. Might be a case you could make there, not sure.
I would stop you on the part where a shield is NOT a Light weapon even if you have tavern brawler.
You are correct they are not light, but the Two Weapon Fighting Style from my Fighter classDual Wielder Feat (thanks Lila_Black for the correction) removes the "light" requirement.
You still have to attack with a Light weapon first.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
In 2014 the Dual Wielder feat allowed you to make an attack with a one-handed weapon and then use your Bonus Action to attack with a different one. However, you're straining RAI to claim the standard effects of a shield and the +1 AC of 2014 Dual Wielder.
Not going into all the details for the first post, but regarding the general question, "Do improvised weapons count as melee weapons for interacting with feats such as Dual Wielder, etc.?", depending on the specific object being used as a makeshift weapon, I'd say a DM could rule that they do, based on the rules:
Weapon Equivalents. If an improvised weapon resembles a Simple or Martial weapon, the DM may say it functions as that weapon and uses that weapon’s rules. For example, the DM could treat a table leg as a Club.
For the 2014 rules:
[...] In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus. [...]
I also remember a few threads about using improvised weapons for different purposes:
You still have to attack with a Light weapon first.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
I'm not sure where the "Enhanced Dual Wielding" is coming from. Is that a 2024 thing?
I'm only using 2014 rules for this build, as 2024 is pretty explicit that you cannot wield two shields at the same time, whereas 2014 only says "you can only benefit from one shield at a time.
In 2014 the Dual Wielder feat allowed you to make an attack with a one-handed weapon and then use your Bonus Action to attack with a different one. However, you're straining RAI to claim the standard effects of a shield and the +1 AC of 2014 Dual Wielder.
Yeah, I absolutely get that. Can you still get the +2 bonus from wielding a shield while using it as an improvised weapon?
It would seem odd to be able to both use the Dueling Fighting Style (only holding one weapon and a shield) and still be able to attack with the shield as an Improvised Weapon. So there are definitely some unintended/contradictory interactions that would come from using a shield as an improvised weapon. There is some precedence for using a shield as a weapon in-game and still gaining the bonus to AC from the Shield of the Cavalier magic item, but it is specifically a magic item and so of course it makes its own rules.
I tried to find anything RAW that suggested one could not use a shield as an improvised weapon, or if using it as a weapon would lose the +2 to AC, but I didn't find anything, mostly likely because this is just a weird non-optimized edge case. Best-case scenario, you end up with a slightly higher AC then you might normally (19 versus 17), but weaker attacks (1d4 vs 1d8 if you were dual wielding Longswords using the same Dual Wielder feat).
But if we ignore my weird edge case with shields, and say we are using a different Improvised Weapon, would Improvised Weapons get the benefits that Melee Weapons do in regards to feats and class features?
Generally speaking you only get one attack. There is no contradiction with the Dueling Fighting Style. You either attack with your weapon or attack with your shield. Until you get the Extra Attack feature those are your choices.
Improvised weapons are improvised weapons. It's often up to the GM to determine if they qualify for weapon features. You are still able to use some class features/spells with them.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I'll lay out the scenario just to give a bit of context:
I wanted to create a PC that dual wields shields as his weapons. He has sworn off bladed weapons for TRAGIC BACKSTORY reasons.
Obviously dual wielding shields is suboptimal, but that's ok for me. I know that I don't get the additional AC from the second shield (can only benefit from one shield) and they are treated as Improvised Weapons, doing 1d4 bludgeoning damage.
If I take the Tavern Brawler Feat, Dual Wilder Feat, and play a Variant Human Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, I believe that:
Therefore at Level 7 I could attack 3 times per round (Attack, Extra Attack, Bonus Action TWF attack), and add proficiency to all attacks and STR bonus to all damage.
However, this DOESN'T WORK if Improvised Weapons don't count as Melee Weapons.
Dual Wielder says:
Two Weapon Fighting (the rule) states:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
The Two-Weapon Fighting Style from Fighter merely removes the "light" requirement.
So is the character build I have laid out RAW? Or do Improvised Weapons not count as "melee weapons" for interacting with Feats, Class Features, etc.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2014/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons
Some GMs might stop at the two shields thing.
I would stop you on the part where a shield is NOT a Light weapon even if you have tavern brawler.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
However there are some cool images on the internet for them.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
All this seems legit. I believe the official ruling is a "melee weapon" is any weapon you use in melee using your melee attack bonus. So, like, while you could use a bow in melee, you'd be using your ranged attack bonus, making it a ranged weapon. But if you improvised and hit some dude with your bow, then (aside from ruining your bow) you would use your melee attack bonus and it would count as a melee weapon.
Honestly, I'd talk to your DM about the damage of the shield. The rule specifically states it deals 1d4 damage if the object "bears no resemblance to a weapon." I dunno... maybe you could make a case that it bears a resemblance to a weapon? In 3e, you could put spikes on your shield and it would count as an exotic weapon. Might be a case you could make there, not sure.
You are correct they are not light, but the
Two Weapon Fighting Style from my Fighter classDual Wielder Feat (thanks Lila_Black for the correction) removes the "light" requirement.You still have to attack with a Light weapon first.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
No it doesn't. It only lets you add your ability modifier to damage made with your extra attack from the Light Weapon property.
Edit: Did you mean the 2014 Dual wielder feat?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
In 2014 the Dual Wielder feat allowed you to make an attack with a one-handed weapon and then use your Bonus Action to attack with a different one. However, you're straining RAI to claim the standard effects of a shield and the +1 AC of 2014 Dual Wielder.
Yup, sorry that's what I meant. Got my things switched around, my bad.
Not going into all the details for the first post, but regarding the general question, "Do improvised weapons count as melee weapons for interacting with feats such as Dual Wielder, etc.?", depending on the specific object being used as a makeshift weapon, I'd say a DM could rule that they do, based on the rules:
For the 2014 rules:
I also remember a few threads about using improvised weapons for different purposes:
- Using a shield as a weapon
- Does a Shield cancel out Dueling Fighting Style?
- Using Shillelagh on other wooden objects
I'm not sure where the "Enhanced Dual Wielding" is coming from. Is that a 2024 thing?
I'm only using 2014 rules for this build, as 2024 is pretty explicit that you cannot wield two shields at the same time, whereas 2014 only says "you can only benefit from one shield at a time.
Yeah, I absolutely get that. Can you still get the +2 bonus from wielding a shield while using it as an improvised weapon?
It would seem odd to be able to both use the Dueling Fighting Style (only holding one weapon and a shield) and still be able to attack with the shield as an Improvised Weapon. So there are definitely some unintended/contradictory interactions that would come from using a shield as an improvised weapon. There is some precedence for using a shield as a weapon in-game and still gaining the bonus to AC from the Shield of the Cavalier magic item, but it is specifically a magic item and so of course it makes its own rules.
I tried to find anything RAW that suggested one could not use a shield as an improvised weapon, or if using it as a weapon would lose the +2 to AC, but I didn't find anything, mostly likely because this is just a weird non-optimized edge case. Best-case scenario, you end up with a slightly higher AC then you might normally (19 versus 17), but weaker attacks (1d4 vs 1d8 if you were dual wielding Longswords using the same Dual Wielder feat).
But if we ignore my weird edge case with shields, and say we are using a different Improvised Weapon, would Improvised Weapons get the benefits that Melee Weapons do in regards to feats and class features?
Generally speaking you only get one attack. There is no contradiction with the Dueling Fighting Style. You either attack with your weapon or attack with your shield. Until you get the Extra Attack feature those are your choices.
Improvised weapons are improvised weapons. It's often up to the GM to determine if they qualify for weapon features. You are still able to use some class features/spells with them.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
This sounds like the type of thing you'd want a homebrew fighter subclass for, some sort of specialty built around using shields as weapons.