I can expect what the main argument/answer would be but am curious if there has been any interesting discussions or specific details about why a character can not "multi-domain" or "multi-school" for example: 4th level Life Cleric/4th level War Cleric. I just have never seen or heard it talked about. Seems like to me it would not be odd for a Wizard to study two schools of magic. Thanks.
The way subclasses work in 5e would make it difficult to balance.
When multiclassing the same class, do base class features stack? Does a level 2 fighter/ level 2 fighter get 2 fighting styles, 2 second winds, and 2 action surges?
There was a discussion about Multi-Single-Classing quite a while ago if I remember right. I think the OP wanted to go down multiple Bard colleges and it was deemed OP as hell.
I think the main reason was that Bards get abilities from their college at 3 6 and 17. So technically you could go down 3 colleges and get 3 level 3 college abilities and 3 level 6 college abilities and be level 18 in total.
I think the conclusion was that it would be best to simply make a homebrew subclass that takes bits and pieces from the two colleges/schools/domains that you want.
The biggest issue I have with multi-domain Clerics (not that it should be impossible) is whether your diety would be okay with it. Most dieties correspond to more than one domain explicitly, and there are other domains that a given diety might not be bothered by.
However, there are a ton of domain combinations that your diety would not be okay with, and there are some domains that I can't think of any dieties being okay with. Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
Similarly, I'd have an issue with trying to be a Cleric in service to multiple dieties at the same time. It's one thing to acknowledge, honor, respect, and worship an entire pantheon of dieties. That's sort of expected from everyday life in most campaign settings, but it's just lip service. Actually being devoted to the service of multiple dieties is a non-starter. Dieties will gladly share the lip service of the masses. A devoted agent on the material plane that a diety has bestowed their power to? Nah, even if the dieties are of similar alignment/motivation, they aren't going to let that stand.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
I'd argue that isn't a Life/War mixture. That's just straight up Life Domain.
The War Domain is more explicitly militant in nature. Being willing & capable of fighting isn't the same as being devoted to it.
War Domain
War has many manifestations. It can make heroes of ordinary people. It can be desperate and horrific, with acts of cruelty and cowardice eclipsing instances of excellence and courage. In either case, the gods of war watch over warriors and reward them for their great deeds. The clerics of such gods excel in battle, inspiring others to fight the good fight or offering acts of violence as prayers. Gods of war include champions of honor and chivalry (such as Torm, Heironeous, and Kiri-Jolith) as well as gods of destruction and pillage (such as Erythnul, the Fury, Gruumsh, and Ares) and gods of conquest and domination (such as Bane, Hextor, and Maglubiyet). Other war gods (such as Tempus, Nike, and Nuada) take a more neutral stance, promoting war in all its manifestations and supporting warriors in any circumstance.
Any Cleric may engage in violence as a means to an end. For War Clerics, the violence is often the means and the end.
I stand by my opinion that Life/War, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
I'd argue that isn't a Life/War mixture. That's just straight up Life Domain.
The War Domain is more explicitly militant in nature. Being willing & capable of fighting isn't the same as being devoted to it.
War Domain
War has many manifestations. It can make heroes of ordinary people. It can be desperate and horrific, with acts of cruelty and cowardice eclipsing instances of excellence and courage. In either case, the gods of war watch over warriors and reward them for their great deeds. The clerics of such gods excel in battle, inspiring others to fight the good fight or offering acts of violence as prayers. Gods of war include champions of honor and chivalry (such as Torm, Heironeous, and Kiri-Jolith) as well as gods of destruction and pillage (such as Erythnul, the Fury, Gruumsh, and Ares) and gods of conquest and domination (such as Bane, Hextor, and Maglubiyet). Other war gods (such as Tempus, Nike, and Nuada) take a more neutral stance, promoting war in all its manifestations and supporting warriors in any circumstance.
Any Cleric may engage in violence as a means to an end. For War Clerics, the violence is often the means and the end.
I stand by my opinion that Life/War, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.
A field medic is still a soldier, still carries a rifle, still engages in combat. They're just additionally trained to heal wounded soldiers.
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
I'd argue that isn't a Life/War mixture. That's just straight up Life Domain.
The War Domain is more explicitly militant in nature. Being willing & capable of fighting isn't the same as being devoted to it.
War Domain
War has many manifestations. It can make heroes of ordinary people. It can be desperate and horrific, with acts of cruelty and cowardice eclipsing instances of excellence and courage. In either case, the gods of war watch over warriors and reward them for their great deeds. The clerics of such gods excel in battle, inspiring others to fight the good fight or offering acts of violence as prayers. Gods of war include champions of honor and chivalry (such as Torm, Heironeous, and Kiri-Jolith) as well as gods of destruction and pillage (such as Erythnul, the Fury, Gruumsh, and Ares) and gods of conquest and domination (such as Bane, Hextor, and Maglubiyet). Other war gods (such as Tempus, Nike, and Nuada) take a more neutral stance, promoting war in all its manifestations and supporting warriors in any circumstance.
Any Cleric may engage in violence as a means to an end. For War Clerics, the violence is often the means and the end.
I stand by my opinion that Life/War, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.
A field medic is still a soldier, still carries a rifle, still engages in combat. They're just additionally trained to heal wounded soldiers.
Yeah, a Life Cleric. 🤷♂️
I subscribe to the notion that members of the Cleric class are warriors, not simple priests/preachers/scholars. Being on the battlefield isn't anything innately special. How they conduct themselves on the battlefield matters. A Life Cleric will fight. They will fight hard/passionately/thoroughly, but they are not warmongers.
Characters can have layers, and they can have dichotomous natures; deities don't. They are the epitome of what their associated Domain(s) represent. This is the crux of the issue; the epitome of what the Life Domain represents is incompatible with the epitome of what the War Domain represents. A deity associated with the Life Domain is unlikely to bestow their servants with power from the War Domain, and the same is true of War Domain deities.
The fact that (mechanically) any Cleric of any deity can choose the Life Domain should not be inferred to mean all deities are associated with the Life Domain. A Cleric of any deity can take the Life Domain because it is the only Domain available in 5e by default.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
I'd argue that isn't a Life/War mixture. That's just straight up Life Domain.
The War Domain is more explicitly militant in nature. Being willing & capable of fighting isn't the same as being devoted to it.
War Domain
War has many manifestations. It can make heroes of ordinary people. It can be desperate and horrific, with acts of cruelty and cowardice eclipsing instances of excellence and courage. In either case, the gods of war watch over warriors and reward them for their great deeds. The clerics of such gods excel in battle, inspiring others to fight the good fight or offering acts of violence as prayers. Gods of war include champions of honor and chivalry (such as Torm, Heironeous, and Kiri-Jolith) as well as gods of destruction and pillage (such as Erythnul, the Fury, Gruumsh, and Ares) and gods of conquest and domination (such as Bane, Hextor, and Maglubiyet). Other war gods (such as Tempus, Nike, and Nuada) take a more neutral stance, promoting war in all its manifestations and supporting warriors in any circumstance.
Any Cleric may engage in violence as a means to an end. For War Clerics, the violence is often the means and the end.
I stand by my opinion that Life/War, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.
A field medic is still a soldier, still carries a rifle, still engages in combat. They're just additionally trained to heal wounded soldiers.
Yeah, a Life Cleric. 🤷♂️
I subscribe to the notion that members of the Cleric class are warriors, not simple priests/preachers/scholars. Being on the battlefield isn't anything innately special. How they conduct themselves on the battlefield matters. A Life Cleric will fight. They will fight hard/passionately/thoroughly, but they are not warmongers.
Characters can have layers, and they can have dichotomous natures; deities don't. They are the epitome of what their associated Domain(s) represent. This is the crux of the issue; the epitome of what the Life Domain represents is incompatible with the epitome of what the War Domain represents. A deity associated with the Life Domain is unlikely to bestow their servants with power from the War Domain, and the same is true of War Domain deities.
The fact that (mechanically) any Cleric of any deity can choose the Life Domain should not be inferred to mean all deities are associated with the Life Domain. A Cleric of any deity can take the Life Domain because it is the only Domain available in 5e by default.
Bahamut has both War and Life as domains. I'm sure there are others, but a quick search turned that up.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
I know, you never said is was impossible, just "a hard sell". I disagree, although I do understand your reservations. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", I'm trying to sell you on it. :D
From the quote from the rulebooks, which you quoted, I'd like to point out a passage which you included but did not highlight:
Gods of war include champions of honor and chivalry (such as Torm, Heironeous, and Kiri-Jolith) as well as gods of destruction and pillage (such as Erythnul, the Fury, Gruumsh, and Ares) and gods of conquest and domination (such as Bane, Hextor, and Maglubiyet). Other war gods (such as Tempus, Nike, and Nuada) take a more neutral stance, promoting war in all its manifestations and supporting warriors in any circumstance.
While I completely agree that a cleric of, say, Gruumsh would have a hard time justifying a Life/War combo, a deity promoting "honor and chivalry" could easily support the Life domain (it is already given that they include War). Not all gods of war promote death and destruction. A "death and destruction" War God offering their clerics Life and War domains would be, indeed, a very hard sell, but a chivalrous god of honor, of the unending war against evil, of never bowing down against the forces of destruction, would not only be a very believable god (not far-fetched, like, say, a god of fighting on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, healing on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and alternately healing and fighting on Sundays), but very reasonably offer both Life and War as domains.
Again, not saying you're wrong, just trying to convince you that it's not as hard a sell as you might have originally though.
By the rules, it cannot be done. But there was a discussion a while back about a homebrew feat that would allow you to take a single feature from a different subclass of your class. We polished it a bit and I was pretty happy with how it ended up. Again, this is homebrew.
By the rules, it cannot be done. But there was a discussion a while back about a homebrew feat that would allow you to take a single feature from a different subclass of your class. We polished it a bit and I was pretty happy with how it ended up. Again, this is homebrew.
I just added the feat and tried to use it. Simply was curious on how the technical side would work but I only got the written aspect of the feat to come up. No ability to actually choose another feature. (Honestly, not sure how you could do this in the homebrew creation anyway but wanted to ask if I missed something. The idea is cool and fits what I was after.)
Mechanically, it is way too complex to be done on D&D Beyond with the current tools. It's a "make a note of this on your character sheet" kind of thing.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
I know, you never said is was impossible, just "a hard sell". I disagree, although I do understand your reservations. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", I'm trying to sell you on it. :D
Well, I'm not sold on it. :P
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
I know, you never said is was impossible, just "a hard sell". I disagree, although I do understand your reservations. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", I'm trying to sell you on it. :D
Well, I'm not sold on it. :P
I'm not surprised. And that's not meant to reflect on you, but rather on the idea. There are two ways to grok clerics (roughly speaking): 1) they're devoted to a deity, 2) they're devoted to a deity's ideal. If you prefer the former, then having a cleric with multiple seemingly contradictory domains is only a problem if there is no deity that promotes those domains. If there is, then naturally clerics would, or least could, subscribe to both domains. If you prefer the latter, then even if a deity promotes two seemingly contradictory domains, the cleric would subscribe to one aspect, and only support one of those domains (even if they also subscribe to other domains which support, or dovetail, their "primary" one, like for example Life and Nature, or War and Death). The latter is probably the more traditional one, supported by deities having multiple appellations. One could easily conceive of a deity that has both War and Life as their domains, let's call her Kesta, known as Kesta the Conqueror, and as Kesta, Soldier's Respite. A Cleric devoted to Kesta would subscribe to one of her aspects, and therefore choose whether they venerate Kesta the Conqueror, and have access to the War domain, or Kesta, Soldier's Respite, and have access to Life. I have no problems with that viewpoint, I think it's logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I also think, though, that a viewpoint where Clerics who venerate Kesta follow all her aspects, and gain access to all her domains is logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I can't really say I prefer one over the other. I find the former (single aspect) more interesting thematically, but the latter (multiple aspects) more interesting mechanically.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
I know, you never said is was impossible, just "a hard sell". I disagree, although I do understand your reservations. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", I'm trying to sell you on it. :D
Well, I'm not sold on it. :P
I'm not surprised. And that's not meant to reflect on you, but rather on the idea. There are two ways to grok clerics (roughly speaking): 1) they're devoted to a deity, 2) they're devoted to a deity's ideal. If you prefer the former, then having a cleric with multiple seemingly contradictory domains is only a problem if there is no deity that promotes those domains. If there is, then naturally clerics would, or least could, subscribe to both domains. If you prefer the latter, then even if a deity promotes two seemingly contradictory domains, the cleric would subscribe to one aspect, and only support one of those domains (even if they also subscribe to other domains which support, or dovetail, their "primary" one, like for example Life and Nature, or War and Death). The latter is probably the more traditional one, supported by deities having multiple appellations. One could easily conceive of a deity that has both War and Life as their domains, let's call her Kesta, known as Kesta the Conqueror, and as Kesta, Soldier's Respite. A Cleric devoted to Kesta would subscribe to one of her aspects, and therefore choose whether they venerate Kesta the Conqueror, and have access to the War domain, or Kesta, Soldier's Respite, and have access to Life. I have no problems with that viewpoint, I think it's logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I also think, though, that a viewpoint where Clerics who venerate Kesta follow all her aspects, and gain access to all her domains is logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I can't really say I prefer one over the other. I find the former (single aspect) more interesting thematically, but the latter (multiple aspects) more interesting mechanically.
That explains the difference between our fundamental views. For me, it's not an either/or; it's both. Whether a deity has multiple "aspects" or "sects" is irrelevant to their Clerics. That's just window-dressing for the masses.
If a mortal wishes to enter into the service of Kesta, they need to revere all that Kesta is. They don't need to be a 100% paragon of all her aspects (nobody's perfect), but it's not like a buffet either. A Cleric of Kesta would not be a cleric of "The Conqueror" or "Soldier's Respite"; they are a Cleric of Kesta, and Kesta determines which domain she grants to her servants based on whatever criteria Kesta wants to use. Why would she grant divine power to them if they only revere one part of what makes Kesta Kesta?
Conversely, you've demonstrated how a player could convince me to allow a multi-domain by developing a deity.
I'd need to have in-depth detail on precisely how Kesta encompasses both of those domains simultaneously. The aspects from each domain that are used to describe the whole of Kesta must be convergent. If you take the "honor and chivalry"--and this is likely the only one that I'd approve--aspect of War, then I expect that to synergize with the chosen aspect(s) of Life.
Is Kesta a goddess of healing and endurance? Then her servants seek to preserve as much life as is possible. When encountering conflict, they seek to resolve things diplomatically. If they must fight, they seek the outcome with the least possible loss of life. If they must kill, they seek to do so quickly and painlessly, and only once other options are exhausted. Challenging an enemy leader to single-combat in order to avoid a full-scale battle is a good example.
Is Kesta a goddess of agriculture? Her servants devote themselves to promoting healthy yields in the villages they travel to. They spend time working fields, sharing knowledge, and training field workers. They're also likely to spend time patrolling the fields, exterminating vermin/wildlife, and/or dealing with bandits.
Is Kesta a goddess of home and community? Her servants typically become leaders of town guards, or of an entire settlement. They may be part of a regional council. They may even become a mercenary as their honorable activities in the field can bring honor and resources back to their communities.
The other thing about being granted the power of multiple domains from a deity is that they are going to be hyper-aware of your actions. You can't be a fair-weather practitioner when it comes to exemplifying the deity's ideals, or to play up one aspect more than another. You've been recognized as being exceptional amongst the already small pool of worthy servants. That makes it even easier for the deity to revoke your power if your actions don't live up to the ideal.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Kesta determines which domain she grants to her servants based on whatever criteria Kesta wants to use.
I had not considered that at all! We tend to forget that the options we pick for our characters don't always reflect the choices our characters have made (well, at least I do). A Cleric if a multi-domain deity with only one domain might not mean they picked that domain, but could represent the deity's choice. (As another example, Sorcerers don't choose to become Sorcerers, they're born that way.)
I did want to point out that I might have misrepresented part of my idea: I did not mean that a cleric could/should revere part of a deity. They should, of course, revere the entire idea of the deity. But they could choose to pick a certain aspect to focus on, similar to how real-world Roman Catholic monks and nuns, while supposably (that's not a typo) revering all that encompasses their god, choose to enter certain orders which focus on certain aspects of their faith. Similarly, a Cleric of a deity with two (or more) domains could focus on (and be devoted to, while revering the entirety of their deity's ideals) a single domain.
By this point, I'm continuing the discussion for purely academic reasons. You've convinced me of entirely workable world views where Clerics could not pick (or rather, where players could not pick for their Clerics) "clashing" domains. I still maintain that there are entirely workable world views where it would work, but I'd be equally happy under either.
Play an Eladrin Cleric. Pick a different domain for each season.
Autumn is the season of peace and goodwill... Protection
Winter is the season of dolor, when the vibrant energy of the world slumbers... Grave
Spring is the season of cheerfulness and unfettered celebration, marked by merriment as winter’s sorrow passes... Life
Summer is the season of boldness and aggression... War
Then simply enjoy playing a multiple personality nutjob.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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I can expect what the main argument/answer would be but am curious if there has been any interesting discussions or specific details about why a character can not "multi-domain" or "multi-school" for example: 4th level Life Cleric/4th level War Cleric. I just have never seen or heard it talked about. Seems like to me it would not be odd for a Wizard to study two schools of magic. Thanks.
The way subclasses work in 5e would make it difficult to balance.
When multiclassing the same class, do base class features stack? Does a level 2 fighter/ level 2 fighter get 2 fighting styles, 2 second winds, and 2 action surges?
There was a discussion about Multi-Single-Classing quite a while ago if I remember right. I think the OP wanted to go down multiple Bard colleges and it was deemed OP as hell.
I think the main reason was that Bards get abilities from their college at 3 6 and 17. So technically you could go down 3 colleges and get 3 level 3 college abilities and 3 level 6 college abilities and be level 18 in total.
I think the conclusion was that it would be best to simply make a homebrew subclass that takes bits and pieces from the two colleges/schools/domains that you want.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
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Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The biggest issue I have with multi-domain Clerics (not that it should be impossible) is whether your diety would be okay with it. Most dieties correspond to more than one domain explicitly, and there are other domains that a given diety might not be bothered by.
However, there are a ton of domain combinations that your diety would not be okay with, and there are some domains that I can't think of any dieties being okay with. Life & War would be a hard sell; possible, but you'd have to give a very convincing argument for how the nature of your diety encompasses both of those domains.
Similarly, I'd have an issue with trying to be a Cleric in service to multiple dieties at the same time. It's one thing to acknowledge, honor, respect, and worship an entire pantheon of dieties. That's sort of expected from everyday life in most campaign settings, but it's just lip service. Actually being devoted to the service of multiple dieties is a non-starter. Dieties will gladly share the lip service of the masses. A devoted agent on the material plane that a diety has bestowed their power to? Nah, even if the dieties are of similar alignment/motivation, they aren't going to let that stand.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That one's easy: the equivalent of the Red Cross's role in wars in the actual world. A deity dedicated to ensuring innocents survive wars, for example, might have both Life and War as domains. I'm pretty sure any combination could be relatively easily justified, too. =)
I didn't feel like commenting on it earlier, but my first thought was field medics, literally combat doctors.
Most combos of cleric domains can be attributed to a single deity (especially life and death which can be attributed to most deities (as all gods are capable of giving and taking life, even if they don't govern over it)).
I'd argue that isn't a Life/War mixture. That's just straight up Life Domain.
The War Domain is more explicitly militant in nature. Being willing & capable of fighting isn't the same as being devoted to it.
Any Cleric may engage in violence as a means to an end. For War Clerics, the violence is often the means and the end.
I stand by my opinion that Life/War, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
A field medic is still a soldier, still carries a rifle, still engages in combat. They're just additionally trained to heal wounded soldiers.
Yeah, a Life Cleric. 🤷♂️
I subscribe to the notion that members of the Cleric class are warriors, not simple priests/preachers/scholars. Being on the battlefield isn't anything innately special. How they conduct themselves on the battlefield matters. A Life Cleric will fight. They will fight hard/passionately/thoroughly, but they are not warmongers.
Characters can have layers, and they can have dichotomous natures; deities don't. They are the epitome of what their associated Domain(s) represent. This is the crux of the issue; the epitome of what the Life Domain represents is incompatible with the epitome of what the War Domain represents. A deity associated with the Life Domain is unlikely to bestow their servants with power from the War Domain, and the same is true of War Domain deities.
The fact that (mechanically) any Cleric of any deity can choose the Life Domain should not be inferred to mean all deities are associated with the Life Domain. A Cleric of any deity can take the Life Domain because it is the only Domain available in 5e by default.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Bahamut has both War and Life as domains. I'm sure there are others, but a quick search turned that up.
Interesting, I did not see that when I was doing my own initial search. In addition, The Silver Flame from Eberron is Life/Light/War. These are the only (as of now) "official" deities with both domains, and they are clearly notable exceptions.
I've repeatedly stated that Life/War is not impossible (in-so-far as we're already talking about a homebrew class); it's just a hard sell. There are two deities that could support it naturally. If I had a player wanting to do a Life/War split domain, they'd need to be devoted to the service of one of those specific deities. If the campaign setting doesn't have those deities, they'd need to work with me on establishing a homebrew deity, and have some really detailed justifications for how that deity would support both domains. Such a thing should not be taken lightly. If the player isn't willing to put in the effort of fully developing a deity that meshes with the campaign setting, then they're SoL.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I know, you never said is was impossible, just "a hard sell". I disagree, although I do understand your reservations. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", I'm trying to sell you on it. :D
From the quote from the rulebooks, which you quoted, I'd like to point out a passage which you included but did not highlight:
While I completely agree that a cleric of, say, Gruumsh would have a hard time justifying a Life/War combo, a deity promoting "honor and chivalry" could easily support the Life domain (it is already given that they include War). Not all gods of war promote death and destruction. A "death and destruction" War God offering their clerics Life and War domains would be, indeed, a very hard sell, but a chivalrous god of honor, of the unending war against evil, of never bowing down against the forces of destruction, would not only be a very believable god (not far-fetched, like, say, a god of fighting on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, healing on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and alternately healing and fighting on Sundays), but very reasonably offer both Life and War as domains.
Again, not saying you're wrong, just trying to convince you that it's not as hard a sell as you might have originally though.
By the rules, it cannot be done. But there was a discussion a while back about a homebrew feat that would allow you to take a single feature from a different subclass of your class. We polished it a bit and I was pretty happy with how it ended up. Again, this is homebrew.
Feature Savant
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I just added the feat and tried to use it. Simply was curious on how the technical side would work but I only got the written aspect of the feat to come up. No ability to actually choose another feature. (Honestly, not sure how you could do this in the homebrew creation anyway but wanted to ask if I missed something. The idea is cool and fits what I was after.)
Mechanically, it is way too complex to be done on D&D Beyond with the current tools. It's a "make a note of this on your character sheet" kind of thing.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well, I'm not sold on it. :P
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm not surprised. And that's not meant to reflect on you, but rather on the idea. There are two ways to grok clerics (roughly speaking): 1) they're devoted to a deity, 2) they're devoted to a deity's ideal. If you prefer the former, then having a cleric with multiple seemingly contradictory domains is only a problem if there is no deity that promotes those domains. If there is, then naturally clerics would, or least could, subscribe to both domains. If you prefer the latter, then even if a deity promotes two seemingly contradictory domains, the cleric would subscribe to one aspect, and only support one of those domains (even if they also subscribe to other domains which support, or dovetail, their "primary" one, like for example Life and Nature, or War and Death). The latter is probably the more traditional one, supported by deities having multiple appellations. One could easily conceive of a deity that has both War and Life as their domains, let's call her Kesta, known as Kesta the Conqueror, and as Kesta, Soldier's Respite. A Cleric devoted to Kesta would subscribe to one of her aspects, and therefore choose whether they venerate Kesta the Conqueror, and have access to the War domain, or Kesta, Soldier's Respite, and have access to Life. I have no problems with that viewpoint, I think it's logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I also think, though, that a viewpoint where Clerics who venerate Kesta follow all her aspects, and gain access to all her domains is logical, internally coherent, workable, fun, makes for great stories, etc. I can't really say I prefer one over the other. I find the former (single aspect) more interesting thematically, but the latter (multiple aspects) more interesting mechanically.
That explains the difference between our fundamental views. For me, it's not an either/or; it's both. Whether a deity has multiple "aspects" or "sects" is irrelevant to their Clerics. That's just window-dressing for the masses.
If a mortal wishes to enter into the service of Kesta, they need to revere all that Kesta is. They don't need to be a 100% paragon of all her aspects (nobody's perfect), but it's not like a buffet either. A Cleric of Kesta would not be a cleric of "The Conqueror" or "Soldier's Respite"; they are a Cleric of Kesta, and Kesta determines which domain she grants to her servants based on whatever criteria Kesta wants to use. Why would she grant divine power to them if they only revere one part of what makes Kesta Kesta?
Conversely, you've demonstrated how a player could convince me to allow a multi-domain by developing a deity.
I'd need to have in-depth detail on precisely how Kesta encompasses both of those domains simultaneously. The aspects from each domain that are used to describe the whole of Kesta must be convergent. If you take the "honor and chivalry"--and this is likely the only one that I'd approve--aspect of War, then I expect that to synergize with the chosen aspect(s) of Life.
Is Kesta a goddess of healing and endurance? Then her servants seek to preserve as much life as is possible. When encountering conflict, they seek to resolve things diplomatically. If they must fight, they seek the outcome with the least possible loss of life. If they must kill, they seek to do so quickly and painlessly, and only once other options are exhausted. Challenging an enemy leader to single-combat in order to avoid a full-scale battle is a good example.
Is Kesta a goddess of agriculture? Her servants devote themselves to promoting healthy yields in the villages they travel to. They spend time working fields, sharing knowledge, and training field workers. They're also likely to spend time patrolling the fields, exterminating vermin/wildlife, and/or dealing with bandits.
Is Kesta a goddess of home and community? Her servants typically become leaders of town guards, or of an entire settlement. They may be part of a regional council. They may even become a mercenary as their honorable activities in the field can bring honor and resources back to their communities.
The other thing about being granted the power of multiple domains from a deity is that they are going to be hyper-aware of your actions. You can't be a fair-weather practitioner when it comes to exemplifying the deity's ideals, or to play up one aspect more than another. You've been recognized as being exceptional amongst the already small pool of worthy servants. That makes it even easier for the deity to revoke your power if your actions don't live up to the ideal.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Excellent post, overall!!!
I had not considered that at all! We tend to forget that the options we pick for our characters don't always reflect the choices our characters have made (well, at least I do). A Cleric if a multi-domain deity with only one domain might not mean they picked that domain, but could represent the deity's choice. (As another example, Sorcerers don't choose to become Sorcerers, they're born that way.)
I did want to point out that I might have misrepresented part of my idea: I did not mean that a cleric could/should revere part of a deity. They should, of course, revere the entire idea of the deity. But they could choose to pick a certain aspect to focus on, similar to how real-world Roman Catholic monks and nuns, while supposably (that's not a typo) revering all that encompasses their god, choose to enter certain orders which focus on certain aspects of their faith. Similarly, a Cleric of a deity with two (or more) domains could focus on (and be devoted to, while revering the entirety of their deity's ideals) a single domain.
By this point, I'm continuing the discussion for purely academic reasons. You've convinced me of entirely workable world views where Clerics could not pick (or rather, where players could not pick for their Clerics) "clashing" domains. I still maintain that there are entirely workable world views where it would work, but I'd be equally happy under either.
Play an Eladrin Cleric. Pick a different domain for each season.
Then simply enjoy playing a multiple personality nutjob.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.