So i'm talking to a friend of mine about running a high level campaign, they want to play a Bard. However they have asked me if i'm ok with letting the Bard class ability Magical Secrets not count towards their max known spells. Basically they want to be level 18 with nineteen Bard spells and six/eight "bard" spells (haven't pinned down their college yet). I know as DM i have final say; but i'm not sure if this is one of those times where Rules As Written is better, or if it's small enough that homebrewing this change won't ruin the game (really don't want to ok it then force them to change it couple sessions in)
That would mean they learn 4 spells in 1 level at level 10, 14 and 18, but that would be 28 spells. By your math, are you having them learn 1 normal bard spell at magical secret levels for 3 spells in 1 level?
Bards already learn the most spells out of every preparation type caster without magical secrets. I prefer to just go with RAW.
You could split the difference, and let them learn a new spell on those levels where they normally wouldn't get one; 12, 16, 19 and/or 20. Keeps them gaining new spells and gives a few extras without the sudden lurches of known spells.
Shouldn't break anything. Grant the other players some similar bonus around the same levels if you like want to balance it some.
Sorry i should have been more clear, the purpose idea is that at levels 10,14, and 18 the character learns 1 normal Bard spell AND Magical Secrets gives them +2, Since as it stands the bard learns two spells at levels 10,14, and 18 this change would net them a single additional spell known at each of these thresholds.
Perhaps you are right and getting to learn 3 spells at level 10,14, and 18 is too much. Perhaps they are trying to min/max too much (i know they plan to take the ritual caster feat for even more possible spells to know)
You could split the difference, and let them learn a new spell on those levels where they normally wouldn't get one; 12, 16, 19 and/or 20. Keeps them gaining new spells and gives a few extras without the sudden lurches of known spells.
Shouldn't break anything. Grant the other players some similar bonus around the same levels if you like want to balance it some.
25 spells at level 18 would tie the highest spell count of other classes which is cleric, druid, and wizard who with a 20 in their casting stat can prepare 25 spells at level 20. Those classes would have 22-23 at level 18.
RAW is very clear on PHB 51 under Additional Magic Secrets:
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you but don't count against the number of bard spells you know.
Right. They know what the RAW. They are asking whether we think the house rule is too strong.
I do not see any difference between RAW, which states Magical Secrets does NOT count against max spells known, and a house rule which is stating the same thing.
RAW is very clear on PHB 51 under Additional Magic Secrets:
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you but don't count against the number of bard spells you know.
Right. They know what the RAW. They are asking whether we think the house rule is too strong.
I do not see any difference between RAW, which states Magical Secrets does NOT count against max spells known, and a house rule which is stating the same thing.
Oh. That is for the lore bard's additional secrets (thought I knew what you said and missed that). The regular magical secrets that all bards get regardless of subclass says:
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
And this is the part they want to know about changing.
Gotcha, I read the "Additional" into the OP post... "Regular" Magical Secrets, as you've pointed out, count against the Bard's "Spells Known" limit, whilst the Additional do not.
So yeah, I"m back to no reason to homebrew, RAW it and the player can go College of Lore and get their "bonus" spells to boot... ;)
(or to put it differently, by homebrewing it, it really underpowers the College of Lore selection)
I like to be as close to RAW as possible (sounds so wrong) but have no problem mixing it up (I allow UA and would make my own magic items).
Sure some of the classes are not perfectly balanced or may be overpowered but honestly I try to look to do things as close to as I can. For example, just give the Warlock rod of the pact keeper or even a ring of spell storing. If its still not enough maybe allow the rod to refresh on short rest.
Or if a player actually mentioned that its an actual problem id first see if they're not even optimal but efficient. You'd be surprised at how poorly a character is is self inflicted. If it's not I'd look into it. If its a serious/ common issue among the base like the sorcerer spells known or even the sorcerer's sorc points I would try to see what I can do, even bending some rules (like I plan on giving the sorcerer in my group an amulet that on a short rest restores half max SP 1x per long rest.. Similar to wizard's recovery.
A GREAT remedy to small class spells known is just give them a staff. There's the fire staff, ice staff, lightning staff (lightning wand may actually be better). If they want healing give staff of healing or prayer beads. There a few of utility ones.. Charm staff etc. You can even homebrew your own and customize the spells given. There are PLENTY of other magic items not necessarily staves that give spells too.
Bards are actually the (non prepared) spellcasters with the MOST spells known so its kind of an insult to injury to any other spellcasters in your group and kind of asking for too much otherwise?
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So i'm talking to a friend of mine about running a high level campaign, they want to play a Bard. However they have asked me if i'm ok with letting the Bard class ability Magical Secrets not count towards their max known spells. Basically they want to be level 18 with nineteen Bard spells and six/eight "bard" spells (haven't pinned down their college yet). I know as DM i have final say; but i'm not sure if this is one of those times where Rules As Written is better, or if it's small enough that homebrewing this change won't ruin the game (really don't want to ok it then force them to change it couple sessions in)
That would mean they learn 4 spells in 1 level at level 10, 14 and 18, but that would be 28 spells. By your math, are you having them learn 1 normal bard spell at magical secret levels for 3 spells in 1 level?
Bards already learn the most spells out of every preparation type caster without magical secrets. I prefer to just go with RAW.
You could split the difference, and let them learn a new spell on those levels where they normally wouldn't get one; 12, 16, 19 and/or 20. Keeps them gaining new spells and gives a few extras without the sudden lurches of known spells.
Shouldn't break anything. Grant the other players some similar bonus around the same levels if you like want to balance it some.
Sorry i should have been more clear, the purpose idea is that at levels 10,14, and 18 the character learns 1 normal Bard spell AND Magical Secrets gives them +2, Since as it stands the bard learns two spells at levels 10,14, and 18 this change would net them a single additional spell known at each of these thresholds.
Perhaps you are right and getting to learn 3 spells at level 10,14, and 18 is too much. Perhaps they are trying to min/max too much (i know they plan to take the ritual caster feat for even more possible spells to know)
RAW is very clear on PHB 51 under Additional Magic Secrets:
Right. They know what the RAW. They are asking whether we think the house rule is too strong.
25 spells at level 18 would tie the highest spell count of other classes which is cleric, druid, and wizard who with a 20 in their casting stat can prepare 25 spells at level 20. Those classes would have 22-23 at level 18.
I do not see any difference between RAW, which states Magical Secrets does NOT count against max spells known, and a house rule which is stating the same thing.
Oh. That is for the lore bard's additional secrets (thought I knew what you said and missed that). The regular magical secrets that all bards get regardless of subclass says:
And this is the part they want to know about changing.
Gotcha, I read the "Additional" into the OP post... "Regular" Magical Secrets, as you've pointed out, count against the Bard's "Spells Known" limit, whilst the Additional do not.
So yeah, I"m back to no reason to homebrew, RAW it and the player can go College of Lore and get their "bonus" spells to boot... ;)
(or to put it differently, by homebrewing it, it really underpowers the College of Lore selection)
I like to be as close to RAW as possible (sounds so wrong) but have no problem mixing it up (I allow UA and would make my own magic items).
Sure some of the classes are not perfectly balanced or may be overpowered but honestly I try to look to do things as close to as I can. For example, just give the Warlock rod of the pact keeper or even a ring of spell storing. If its still not enough maybe allow the rod to refresh on short rest.
Or if a player actually mentioned that its an actual problem id first see if they're not even optimal but efficient. You'd be surprised at how poorly a character is is self inflicted. If it's not I'd look into it. If its a serious/ common issue among the base like the sorcerer spells known or even the sorcerer's sorc points I would try to see what I can do, even bending some rules (like I plan on giving the sorcerer in my group an amulet that on a short rest restores half max SP 1x per long rest.. Similar to wizard's recovery.
A GREAT remedy to small class spells known is just give them a staff. There's the fire staff, ice staff, lightning staff (lightning wand may actually be better). If they want healing give staff of healing or prayer beads. There a few of utility ones.. Charm staff etc. You can even homebrew your own and customize the spells given. There are PLENTY of other magic items not necessarily staves that give spells too.
Bards are actually the (non prepared) spellcasters with the MOST spells known so its kind of an insult to injury to any other spellcasters in your group and kind of asking for too much otherwise?