Think of the Cleric. Pious, dedicated to their god. Often traveling in vestments of their Order or Diety with a prayer book at hand. Able to cite passages and supportive words at the drop of the hat.
Think of the Paladin. Dedicated, steadfast. Loyal. While not requiring a god, those who take the Oath of Devotion could easily rival a Cleric in terms of knowledge of their deity.
Except Religion is INTELLEGENCE BASED!
The dumpstat for almost every single class and especially for Clerics and Paladins, this skill is extremely underpowered when in their hands. Unless they roll above a 15 on their d20 in most cases, they aren't going to be able to actually cite anything in active play. Your Paladin could be a steadfast follower of Tyr who worships every morning and keeps iconography of the Blind God on them at all times but ask him to cite a passage from the text and he'll show as much knowledge as a common plebian. Same for a Cleric of Illamatar.
And forget trying to play with the Acolyte with your rolls unless you build around Int because you aren't going to be able to roll anything worthwhile unless you are playing a Wizard.
There are plenty of pious folk who know nothing more about the religion they believe in than what they are told.
Trying to apply actual logic to who benefits from what is pretty silly in DnD anyway. Why do Clerics use Wisdom for their casting stat if their powers are granted from their gods? Shouldn't it be Charisma for the force of their belief and their ability to influence others with that belief?
There would be no NEED for a Cleric or Paladin to make a roll for anything about their OWN religion, but that same dedication and faith keeps them blind to other religions outside of their religion's view/history with other religions without STUDY. Think about how much you know about your religion, and then how little you know about the cast majority of other religions, especially those which are not the "Big 5". For that matter, most people aren't really aware of the actual differences between the differences within their own religion.
tl;dr: Character doesn't make a roll for what they obviously know, they make a roll for what they've learned about others which is not common knowledge.
Have you ever met someone who is wholly, completely devoted to their religion, nearly shoving it down the throats of anyone that talks to them, but when you ask them to explain or quote a specific scripture or saying, they can't remember or explain it for the life of them?
There are plenty of people like that in real life. This is my interpretation of how Religion is Intelligence based, because it is remembering lore and proverbs and scriptures from different religions, while a Cleric and Paladin don't need that, they are just devoted to their deity or religion.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You might get more mileage out of using proficiency as a gate. Maybe players can't roll at all unless they're proficient. Or maybe you declare that proficiency allows the player to automatically know certain things without having to roll.
The way I rule it is similar to LeviRocks, except I also see Religion as more of a catch-all knowledge of what various things different religions entail, rather than just straight up knowledge of your own particular god. You don't have to be smart to faithful, and remember the suggested Attribute for each skill is just that, a suggestion.
You can make Strength based intimidation rolls, and in Descent there's even a point where a character has to make a Charisma based Religion roll.
Think of the Cleric. Pious, dedicated to their god. Often traveling in vestments of their Order or Diety with a prayer book at hand. Able to cite passages and supportive words at the drop of the hat.
Think of the Paladin. Dedicated, steadfast. Loyal. While not requiring a god, those who take the Oath of Devotion could easily rival a Cleric in terms of knowledge of their deity.
Except Religion is INTELLEGENCE BASED!
The dumpstat for almost every single class and especially for Clerics and Paladins, this skill is extremely underpowered when in their hands. Unless they roll above a 15 on their d20 in most cases, they aren't going to be able to actually cite anything in active play. Your Paladin could be a steadfast follower of Tyr who worships every morning and keeps iconography of the Blind God on them at all times but ask him to cite a passage from the text and he'll show as much knowledge as a common plebian. Same for a Cleric of Illamatar.
And forget trying to play with the Acolyte with your rolls unless you build around Int because you aren't going to be able to roll anything worthwhile unless you are playing a Wizard.
Yes, intellect is usually a dump stat for Paladins and clerics. Proficiency allows them to have some ability to make skill checks on religion where they wouldn't otherwise. Imagine a scenario where you have a cleric, a druid, a fighter, a Paladin, 2 Rangers, and a warlock (an actual party that I'm DMing for, the fighter and a ranger are currently NPCs because the players haven't been playing). If the fighter isn't an EK, who should take Int so that they can make intelligence checks? Or you can have them be proficient in the int skills so that they can at least add their proficiency bonus to the checks and none of them have to feel like they have to put more than a 10 in intelligence. Then, as DM, I can adjust their knowledge check DCs depending on the scenario. If it's critical information, I either don't have them roll or set the DC at 5 (maybe 10 if the party is at a level where the proficiency bonus would automatically achieve the 5). If it's important but I've got other ways for them to find the information out, then I can raise the DC 5 (10-15, depending on level). If it's something that isn't important or that is more optional, then I can have the DC at 15 or 20. If they get it, bonus for them. If they don't, I can tell them that they remember X detail from some conversation, reading, or studying done years ago. The detail doesn't have to be true, it can be misremembered on a fail. Additionally, if it's a detail that they are likely to remember, the DM can always give Advantage in the form of a +5 if the roll is deemed necessary.
Another way to potentially look at it could be that, as an adherent to your god you know everything there is to know about them, but when it comes to other people's gods you know jack-diddly-squat about them.
I agree. I wouldn't make them roll for a check of what their god promotes as the essence of life nor would I make them roll for the basic form of worship. So they would easily know what the morning service is called, how the worship leader conducts the service and the major themes that form the practice. Likewise they would be able to recite several passages of prayers from their routine practice. They would know the same thing about the other services and festivals their religion observes.
They should be able to recognize a tomb dedicated to their deity and several of the thematic symbols.
If they were in a 'foreign chapel' they might recognize a bowl and 'think' it is used for the same purpose in the same way I would think any (larger than a) gallon bowl at the rear of a church near the entrance is for performing baptisms. I could be that I am wrong and it is for the worshipers to wash their hands, or possibly the leader of the worship alone, but that is what I would presume. And for good reason, I wouldn't mess with it nor would I steal it just because it was formed from a precious metal.
Good luck and enjoy the game.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
If you want to play a character who knows things, maybe don’t make INT your dump stat? Seems pretty straightforward...
This. Also, Proficiency in a skill makes up for even pretty damn low scores. With point buy you will always have at least some bonus to your religion check.
That said, there are many ways this can easily be handled even if you do choose to dump Int and you don't want to houserule sutff. Like mentioned, the "Religion" skill encompasses all religions, not just your own. Even if you know a lot about your own God you might not know about religion in general. Rules-wise this can be done by the DM lowering the DC for Religion checks that deal with your own faith. Another way is to ask your deity for some help (by casting guidance) which is one time where it's thematically very fitting. A third way would be to simply play a character that is more interested in faith as oppossed to religion. Like a really religious person but who doesn't feel the need to get hung up on technicalities. Or maybe the world in which you play doesn't really have that many organized religions but more of a hodge-podge of beliefs?
Agree with the others that say you don't need to roll for stuff you already know. It can be assumed that your cleric knows about the god they serve. A skill check should only be used if there's actual skill involved.
Just like you don't need to roll a history check to recall basic details about commonly known historic events.
But reciting the tenets of another god? Deciphering the ancient symbols on that evil-looking shrine? That might need a religion check.
And yes - if you want your character to be intelligent... put points in intelligence.
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Think of the Cleric. Pious, dedicated to their god. Often traveling in vestments of their Order or Diety with a prayer book at hand. Able to cite passages and supportive words at the drop of the hat.
Think of the Paladin. Dedicated, steadfast. Loyal. While not requiring a god, those who take the Oath of Devotion could easily rival a Cleric in terms of knowledge of their deity.
Except Religion is INTELLEGENCE BASED!
The dumpstat for almost every single class and especially for Clerics and Paladins, this skill is extremely underpowered when in their hands. Unless they roll above a 15 on their d20 in most cases, they aren't going to be able to actually cite anything in active play. Your Paladin could be a steadfast follower of Tyr who worships every morning and keeps iconography of the Blind God on them at all times but ask him to cite a passage from the text and he'll show as much knowledge as a common plebian. Same for a Cleric of Illamatar.
And forget trying to play with the Acolyte with your rolls unless you build around Int because you aren't going to be able to roll anything worthwhile unless you are playing a Wizard.
There are plenty of pious folk who know nothing more about the religion they believe in than what they are told.
Trying to apply actual logic to who benefits from what is pretty silly in DnD anyway. Why do Clerics use Wisdom for their casting stat if their powers are granted from their gods? Shouldn't it be Charisma for the force of their belief and their ability to influence others with that belief?
There would be no NEED for a Cleric or Paladin to make a roll for anything about their OWN religion, but that same dedication and faith keeps them blind to other religions outside of their religion's view/history with other religions without STUDY. Think about how much you know about your religion, and then how little you know about the cast majority of other religions, especially those which are not the "Big 5". For that matter, most people aren't really aware of the actual differences between the differences within their own religion.
tl;dr: Character doesn't make a roll for what they obviously know, they make a roll for what they've learned about others which is not common knowledge.
If you want to play a character who knows things, maybe don’t make INT your dump stat? Seems pretty straightforward...
Have you ever met someone who is wholly, completely devoted to their religion, nearly shoving it down the throats of anyone that talks to them, but when you ask them to explain or quote a specific scripture or saying, they can't remember or explain it for the life of them?
There are plenty of people like that in real life. This is my interpretation of how Religion is Intelligence based, because it is remembering lore and proverbs and scriptures from different religions, while a Cleric and Paladin don't need that, they are just devoted to their deity or religion.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You might get more mileage out of using proficiency as a gate. Maybe players can't roll at all unless they're proficient. Or maybe you declare that proficiency allows the player to automatically know certain things without having to roll.
There are certainly many options.
The way I rule it is similar to LeviRocks, except I also see Religion as more of a catch-all knowledge of what various things different religions entail, rather than just straight up knowledge of your own particular god. You don't have to be smart to faithful, and remember the suggested Attribute for each skill is just that, a suggestion.
You can make Strength based intimidation rolls, and in Descent there's even a point where a character has to make a Charisma based Religion roll.
Yes, intellect is usually a dump stat for Paladins and clerics. Proficiency allows them to have some ability to make skill checks on religion where they wouldn't otherwise. Imagine a scenario where you have a cleric, a druid, a fighter, a Paladin, 2 Rangers, and a warlock (an actual party that I'm DMing for, the fighter and a ranger are currently NPCs because the players haven't been playing). If the fighter isn't an EK, who should take Int so that they can make intelligence checks? Or you can have them be proficient in the int skills so that they can at least add their proficiency bonus to the checks and none of them have to feel like they have to put more than a 10 in intelligence. Then, as DM, I can adjust their knowledge check DCs depending on the scenario. If it's critical information, I either don't have them roll or set the DC at 5 (maybe 10 if the party is at a level where the proficiency bonus would automatically achieve the 5). If it's important but I've got other ways for them to find the information out, then I can raise the DC 5 (10-15, depending on level). If it's something that isn't important or that is more optional, then I can have the DC at 15 or 20. If they get it, bonus for them. If they don't, I can tell them that they remember X detail from some conversation, reading, or studying done years ago. The detail doesn't have to be true, it can be misremembered on a fail. Additionally, if it's a detail that they are likely to remember, the DM can always give Advantage in the form of a +5 if the roll is deemed necessary.
Another way to potentially look at it could be that, as an adherent to your god you know everything there is to know about them, but when it comes to other people's gods you know jack-diddly-squat about them.
EDIT: Basically, what The_Glimpse said.
I agree. I wouldn't make them roll for a check of what their god promotes as the essence of life nor would I make them roll for the basic form of worship. So they would easily know what the morning service is called, how the worship leader conducts the service and the major themes that form the practice. Likewise they would be able to recite several passages of prayers from their routine practice. They would know the same thing about the other services and festivals their religion observes.
They should be able to recognize a tomb dedicated to their deity and several of the thematic symbols.
If they were in a 'foreign chapel' they might recognize a bowl and 'think' it is used for the same purpose in the same way I would think any (larger than a) gallon bowl at the rear of a church near the entrance is for performing baptisms. I could be that I am wrong and it is for the worshipers to wash their hands, or possibly the leader of the worship alone, but that is what I would presume. And for good reason, I wouldn't mess with it nor would I steal it just because it was formed from a precious metal.
Good luck and enjoy the game.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
This. Also, Proficiency in a skill makes up for even pretty damn low scores. With point buy you will always have at least some bonus to your religion check.
That said, there are many ways this can easily be handled even if you do choose to dump Int and you don't want to houserule sutff. Like mentioned, the "Religion" skill encompasses all religions, not just your own. Even if you know a lot about your own God you might not know about religion in general. Rules-wise this can be done by the DM lowering the DC for Religion checks that deal with your own faith. Another way is to ask your deity for some help (by casting guidance) which is one time where it's thematically very fitting. A third way would be to simply play a character that is more interested in faith as oppossed to religion. Like a really religious person but who doesn't feel the need to get hung up on technicalities. Or maybe the world in which you play doesn't really have that many organized religions but more of a hodge-podge of beliefs?
Why bother with a high int score and religion proficiency when you can be an evil preacher and get rich by taking expertise in deception?
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Agree with the others that say you don't need to roll for stuff you already know. It can be assumed that your cleric knows about the god they serve. A skill check should only be used if there's actual skill involved.
Just like you don't need to roll a history check to recall basic details about commonly known historic events.
But reciting the tenets of another god? Deciphering the ancient symbols on that evil-looking shrine? That might need a religion check.
And yes - if you want your character to be intelligent... put points in intelligence.