Theoretically, inflict wounds and similar touch spells still have additional somatic components. So, I would at least expect some form of contested check or attack roll (or maybe very good role playing reasons), why the target does not get very suspicious what you are trying to cast while shaking hands.
I would say that most people know that someone casting something while touching you might be up to something.
Inflict wounds has verbal and somatic components to it. It doesn't just happen. Your character would need to mutter the vocal components of the spell and make the needed hand gestures.
You could argue you do that in secret or blah-blah, but that would still mean that the intended target has a chance to notice something is going on. An attack roll would simplify all the if/or clauses thrown in there. Maybe with advantage, but that's entirely up to the DM.
If I ready an action to Subtle (metamagic) cast a touch attack spell when person X shakes my hand, do I have to roll an attack?
I would rule that you do not need to roll an attack in that case.
But it has to be a readied action, has to be subtle cast. Otherwise your target knows you are casting (subtle stops that) and the timing is off for the hand shake (unless you readied it).
Note, this can lose a spell slot if the target does not shake your hands in the next round.
Okay, what if you cast the spell and then surreptitiously offer to shake their hand and they take it?
Inflict Wound is instantaneous, you don't just cast it and wait for someone to give you his hand to shake you have to touch the target the instant you cast it
And doing so always require an attack roll. If grappling was making touch spell attack automatically hit it would say so.
Similar situation: you're in a tavern and see the Evil Vampire Villain disguised as a commoner. You can say "I sneak up on him and jam a stake in his heart!" but you still need to roll initiative and make an attack.
I would make you make an attack roll. But I would let you make a Deception check opposed by your target’s Passive Insight to get Advantage on the attack roll.
"Make a melee spell attack against a creature you can reach" RAW there are no exceptions ot this and I would say tthis is also RAI. Rule of cool as a DM I would give something to a player who is imaginate or who uses extra resources (for example Subtle casting I would probably give advantage) but this is definately homebrew..
The subtle spell case (with an appropriate deception check) could be a surprise attack, granting advantage and maybe a surprise turn. Other than that, this is the same as "can I use a touch spell on someone I'm grappling without making an attack roll", with the same answer ("no").
The spells range is touch, but that doesn’t mean that a successful use of the spell is limited to merely too Ching the creature. The spell description states that a melee spell attack is necessary against a creature you can reach. On a hit, the damage is rolled and the targeted creature takes the damage.
Yes it’s magic, but that doesn’t mean your hand or w/e you’re using to attack the create automatically deals damage upon touch.
Every other spell that confers a negative effect with touch says that it requires a saving throw to be riled on the touch.
completely removing a roll of any sort for the the spell to succeed doesn’t seem appropriate.
The subtle spell case (with an appropriate deception check) could be a surprise attack, granting advantage and maybe a surprise turn.
It's not how Surprise rule normally work though, If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity ( Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Comparing the Charisma (Deception) check of anyone not hiding is not normally granting Surprise attack for free before the 1st turn and making enemies Surprised.
The subtle spell case (with an appropriate deception check) could be a surprise attack, granting advantage and maybe a surprise turn.
It's not how Surprise rule normally work though, If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity ( Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Comparing the Charisma (Deception) check of anyone not hiding is not normally granting Surprise attack for free before the 1st turn and making enemies Surprised.
"A creature that does not notice the threat is surprised"
The rest of the rules on determining surprise are assume what is important is whether the attacker is noticed, there is no explanation what to do if the attacker is noticed but not perceived as a threat.
One interpretation is ifyou notice the threat but not recognised it as a threat you are not surprised.
Another interpretation is if you have not noticed you are being threatened you are surprised both 8nterpretations are valid.
The subtle spell case (with an appropriate deception check) could be a surprise attack, granting advantage and maybe a surprise turn.
It's not how Surprise rule normally work though, If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity ( Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Comparing the Charisma (Deception) check of anyone not hiding is not normally granting Surprise attack for free before the 1st turn and making enemies Surprised.
"A creature that does not notice the threat is surprised"
The rest of the rules on determining surprise are assume what is important is whether the attacker is noticed, there is no explanation what to do if the attacker is noticed but not perceived as a threat.
One interpretation is ifyou notice the threat but not recognised it as a threat you are not surprised.
Another interpretation is if you have not noticed you are being threatened you are surprised both 8nterpretations are valid.
If the creature posing a threat is not hidden you don't use Perception score to see if you notice it, you automatically do. Surprise rely on Stealth as written.
Noticing A Threat: Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
It's not how Surprise rule normally work though, If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.
It's true that there's no rule for surprise that doesn't use stealth, but there's a lot of situations where surprise through deception makes sense (you're aware they're present, you just don't expect them to be hostile). In any case, I was talking about how a DM might rule on a situation that isn't covered in the rules.
If a particular game element is required by spell, then that's all there is to that question, unless some other rule requires a different change. Remember, it isn't a "touch attack" it is a melee spell attack.
Whether you're already touching the creature or not doesn't change what the spell says.
I always advise working backwards from your known conclusion, rather than attempting to stumble forwards on a set of assumptions and inevitably running into contradictions.
The RAW answer is simple for all of these - Inflict Wounds requires an attack roll, and nothing about touch spells says that contact auto-succeeds on an attack. So one reasonable explanation would be that, like weapon attacks, a spell attack represents more than simply making contact. You need to deliver the attack in a direct and forceful enough manner to cause damage.
For the subtle spell route - if the target's guard was down and not suspecting combat in the slightest, they would potentially be surprised - YMMV with DMs. And as a DM, I'd also offer you advantage on the attack roll, though nothing in the rules mandates it.
If my character is already shaking someone’s hand, and I cast inflict wounds on that character, do I still need to make a melee spell attack?
Theoretically, inflict wounds and similar touch spells still have additional somatic components. So, I would at least expect some form of contested check or attack roll (or maybe very good role playing reasons), why the target does not get very suspicious what you are trying to cast while shaking hands.
I would say that most people know that someone casting something while touching you might be up to something.
Inflict wounds has verbal and somatic components to it. It doesn't just happen. Your character would need to mutter the vocal components of the spell and make the needed hand gestures.
You could argue you do that in secret or blah-blah, but that would still mean that the intended target has a chance to notice something is going on. An attack roll would simplify all the if/or clauses thrown in there. Maybe with advantage, but that's entirely up to the DM.
Okay, what if you cast the spell and then surreptitiously offer to shake their hand and they take it?
Or what if you are a sorcerer and use subtle spell to cast it while shaking hands?
Let me rephrase your question to make more sense.
I would rule that you do not need to roll an attack in that case.
But it has to be a readied action, has to be subtle cast. Otherwise your target knows you are casting (subtle stops that) and the timing is off for the hand shake (unless you readied it).
Note, this can lose a spell slot if the target does not shake your hands in the next round.
Inflict Wound is instantaneous, you don't just cast it and wait for someone to give you his hand to shake you have to touch the target the instant you cast it
And doing so always require an attack roll. If grappling was making touch spell attack automatically hit it would say so.
Yes, you need to make an attack roll.
Similar situation: you're in a tavern and see the Evil Vampire Villain disguised as a commoner. You can say "I sneak up on him and jam a stake in his heart!" but you still need to roll initiative and make an attack.
I would make you make an attack roll. But I would let you make a Deception check opposed by your target’s Passive Insight to get Advantage on the attack roll.
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"Make a melee spell attack against a creature you can reach" RAW there are no exceptions ot this and I would say tthis is also RAI. Rule of cool as a DM I would give something to a player who is imaginate or who uses extra resources (for example Subtle casting I would probably give advantage) but this is definately homebrew..
The trick is to make it an attempt to ambush. At the very least you should be able to get a surprise round, if not auto hit.
The subtle spell case (with an appropriate deception check) could be a surprise attack, granting advantage and maybe a surprise turn. Other than that, this is the same as "can I use a touch spell on someone I'm grappling without making an attack roll", with the same answer ("no").
The spells range is touch, but that doesn’t mean that a successful use of the spell is limited to merely too Ching the creature. The spell description states that a melee spell attack is necessary against a creature you can reach. On a hit, the damage is rolled and the targeted creature takes the damage.
Yes it’s magic, but that doesn’t mean your hand or w/e you’re using to attack the create automatically deals damage upon touch.
Every other spell that confers a negative effect with touch says that it requires a saving throw to be riled on the touch.
completely removing a roll of any sort for the the spell to succeed doesn’t seem appropriate.
It's not how Surprise rule normally work though, If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity ( Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Comparing the Charisma (Deception) check of anyone not hiding is not normally granting Surprise attack for free before the 1st turn and making enemies Surprised.
"A creature that does not notice the threat is surprised"
The rest of the rules on determining surprise are assume what is important is whether the attacker is noticed, there is no explanation what to do if the attacker is noticed but not perceived as a threat.
One interpretation is ifyou notice the threat but not recognised it as a threat you are not surprised.
Another interpretation is if you have not noticed you are being threatened you are surprised both 8nterpretations are valid.
If the creature posing a threat is not hidden you don't use Perception score to see if you notice it, you automatically do. Surprise rely on Stealth as written.
It's true that there's no rule for surprise that doesn't use stealth, but there's a lot of situations where surprise through deception makes sense (you're aware they're present, you just don't expect them to be hostile). In any case, I was talking about how a DM might rule on a situation that isn't covered in the rules.
If a particular game element is required by spell, then that's all there is to that question, unless some other rule requires a different change. Remember, it isn't a "touch attack" it is a melee spell attack.
Whether you're already touching the creature or not doesn't change what the spell says.
I always advise working backwards from your known conclusion, rather than attempting to stumble forwards on a set of assumptions and inevitably running into contradictions.
The RAW answer is simple for all of these - Inflict Wounds requires an attack roll, and nothing about touch spells says that contact auto-succeeds on an attack. So one reasonable explanation would be that, like weapon attacks, a spell attack represents more than simply making contact. You need to deliver the attack in a direct and forceful enough manner to cause damage.
For the subtle spell route - if the target's guard was down and not suspecting combat in the slightest, they would potentially be surprised - YMMV with DMs. And as a DM, I'd also offer you advantage on the attack roll, though nothing in the rules mandates it.