While DM a session last night I started questioning myself if I had the game mechanic correct for stealth and if a certain condition initiated a surprise encounter.
What I'll be asking at the end is:
a) Did I ask the correct amount of Stealth checks for the player(s)?
b) Did the party earn a surprise or not?
Situation the rogue of the party decided to scout ahead down a winding hallway using stealth to see what is inside an opening of a lit cavern.
1: I had the rogue make a stealth check and she rolled a 22. Just at the entrance of the cave, she used her mirror to get an idea of what was inside the cavern without exposing herself to whatever may be inside. After that scouting, she got a general lay of the land as described below.
A rough-walled cavern set with lumpy pillars of stone is brightly lit by the roiling ball of light that floats suspended above a huge black cauldron at its center. The chaotic maelstrom of energy churns and twists as if in response to the hooting, chanting cries of the horrid creatures that surround it, spittle flying from their twisted maws as they wave taloned hands in the air. Another creature canters in circles around the cauldron, its whip-like tail lashing the air as it cackles with fiendish laughter.
2: The rogue went back to the party, still under her 22 stealth roll, and informed them about what she saw.
As a group, they hatched a plan for two other members of the party along with the rogue sneak behind the pillars and try to get the surprise on the creatures.
the Encounter has the following that I can apply to their desired action.
Because the demons are occupied, the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise.
3: I make the rest of the party make stealth rolls but allow the rogue to keep her 22 stealth to make their way down the hallway. The other two members who plan on hiding rolled a 12 and 8.
4: Once at the cave entrance I did not make the players roll again for a stealth check to see if they could hide behind the pillars without being seen as I used the numbers rolled in the hallway since they had not been spotted by an opposing creature.
5: Two out of the three passes the stealth/hiding DC check but the two creature types Passive Perception were 9 and 10.
6: Once behind the pillars the rogue lead the assault which triggered initiative. I did not reward surprise because one of the players failed the hiding check, as well as both creatures' Passive Perception value, beat the player check value.
So my questions
a) What was nagging at the back of my head was that I let the Rogue ride that 22 stealth check for too long that maybe I should have made a 'refreshed' check at certain stop points like when she went back to inform the party what she saw or once she entered the cavern to hide behind the pillars. Maybe there were more spots to have her roll again but I just wanted to get an outside opinion.
b) I did not reward surprise because two out of the three-party member were successfully hidden but one did not and could have been seen or sensed because he did not beat either creatures' Passive Perception. What was nagging me hear was that at a group check level the stealth succeeded but I'm wondering if I was just trying to rationalize a surprise. So I'm asking by not awarding surprise was this handled correctly or should I have done something different.
The Rogue can't stay under their initial Stealth check if they stop to explain what they saw.
If you allow a Group check, if more than half the party succeeds, they all do.
Was I correct in the case that the stealth check the whole party would have made, using your point that the rogue would need to roll a new one, would remain from the hallway to the pillars and count as the hide without having to roll again? Meaning it could be just one roll and not needing it broken up to preform the hide behind the pillar check?
As long as the conditions that allow a Hide check are met, you can keep it without a reroll. In the hallway, the Stealth quick was based on being quiet as, line of sight couldn't be established by the enemies. As far as the cave entrance and pillar arrangement goes, if they could move around without being in plain sight as in some kind of partial cover and kept quiet, they should be fine. Remember that you can add or subtract 5 from an enemies Passive Perception if there is good reason, or you could do the reverse and give Advantage/Disadvantage to the players rolls.
While DM a session last night I started questioning myself if I had the game mechanic correct for stealth and if a certain condition initiated a surprise encounter.
What I'll be asking at the end is:
a) Did I ask the correct amount of Stealth checks for the player(s)?
b) Did the party earn a surprise or not?
Situation the rogue of the party decided to scout ahead down a winding hallway using stealth to see what is inside an opening of a lit cavern.
1: I had the rogue make a stealth check and she rolled a 22. Just at the entrance of the cave, she used her mirror to get an idea of what was inside the cavern without exposing herself to whatever may be inside. After that scouting, she got a general lay of the land as described below.
A rough-walled cavern set with lumpy pillars of stone is brightly lit by the roiling ball of light that floats suspended above a huge black cauldron at its center. The chaotic maelstrom of energy churns and twists as if in response to the hooting, chanting cries of the horrid creatures that surround it, spittle flying from their twisted maws as they wave taloned hands in the air. Another creature canters in circles around the cauldron, its whip-like tail lashing the air as it cackles with fiendish laughter.
2: The rogue went back to the party, still under her 22 stealth roll, and informed them about what she saw.
Makes sense to me. The rogue rolled stealth to scout out the area and report back, I agree that that's one "thing" to do so just one check.
As a group, they hatched a plan for two other members of the party along with the rogue sneak behind the pillars and try to get the surprise on the creatures.
the Encounter has the following that I can apply to their desired action.
Because the demons are occupied, the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise.
3: I make the rest of the party make stealth rolls but allow the rogue to keep her 22 stealth to make their way down the hallway. The other two members who plan on hiding rolled a 12 and 8.
I would have probably asked for a second roll from the rogue here. The first one was an individual check to scout, this one is a group check to get in position... seems like it's a totally separate "thing to do" so requires a second check.
4: Once at the cave entrance I did not make the players roll again for a stealth check to see if they could hide behind the pillars without being seen as I used the numbers rolled in the hallway since they had not been spotted by an opposing creature.
I agree there, I'd treat the second stealth check as "getting into position to attack" and not break that down further into sub-actions. Probably shouldn't matter, because I'd hope a rogue can pass a DC10
5: Two out of the three passes the stealth/hiding DC check but the two creature types Passive Perception were 9 and 10.
Yep, so the group check would pass. In this case I'd say the passive perceptions don't even matter because the specific rules for the encounter (" Because the demons are occupied, the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise.") override the general rules.
6: Once behind the pillars the rogue lead the assault which triggered initiative. I did not reward surprise because one of the players failed the hiding check, as well as both creatures' Passive Perception value, beat the player check value.
Oh man. that doesn't sound good to me. The encounter rules you're quoting specifically say "the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise." The characters did exactly that - passed a DC10 group Dex (Stealth) check, got into position behind the pillars, and so they should get surprise.
So my questions
a) What was nagging at the back of my head was that I let the Rogue ride that 22 stealth check for too long that maybe I should have made a 'refreshed' check at certain stop points like when she went back to inform the party what she saw or once she entered the cavern to hide behind the pillars. Maybe there were more spots to have her roll again but I just wanted to get an outside opinion.
Yep, I agree there. I generally would call for a second check if it's a substantially different action than the first one, possibly something more difficult or just a new thing to do. In this case I'd probably rule that "scouting out the area" is one check and "getting into position as a group" is a second.
b) I did not reward surprise because two out of the three-party member were successfully hidden but one did not and could have been seen or sensed because he did not beat either creatures' Passive Perception. What was nagging me hear was that at a group check level the stealth succeeded but I'm wondering if I was just trying to rationalize a surprise. So I'm asking by not awarding surprise was this handled correctly or should I have done something different.
Yeah, in a group check if more than half of the group succeeds, then the whole group succeeds.
The rules for surprise are IMO kind of silly though, for exactly this reason, and I've been super happy that in the campaign I'm playing in the DM homebrewed them a bit.
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While DM a session last night I started questioning myself if I had the game mechanic correct for stealth and if a certain condition initiated a surprise encounter.
What I'll be asking at the end is:
a) Did I ask the correct amount of Stealth checks for the player(s)?
b) Did the party earn a surprise or not?
Situation the rogue of the party decided to scout ahead down a winding hallway using stealth to see what is inside an opening of a lit cavern.
1: I had the rogue make a stealth check and she rolled a 22. Just at the entrance of the cave, she used her mirror to get an idea of what was inside the cavern without exposing herself to whatever may be inside. After that scouting, she got a general lay of the land as described below.
2: The rogue went back to the party, still under her 22 stealth roll, and informed them about what she saw.
As a group, they hatched a plan for two other members of the party along with the rogue sneak behind the pillars and try to get the surprise on the creatures.
the Encounter has the following that I can apply to their desired action.
3: I make the rest of the party make stealth rolls but allow the rogue to keep her 22 stealth to make their way down the hallway. The other two members who plan on hiding rolled a 12 and 8.
4: Once at the cave entrance I did not make the players roll again for a stealth check to see if they could hide behind the pillars without being seen as I used the numbers rolled in the hallway since they had not been spotted by an opposing creature.
5: Two out of the three passes the stealth/hiding DC check but the two creature types Passive Perception were 9 and 10.
6: Once behind the pillars the rogue lead the assault which triggered initiative. I did not reward surprise because one of the players failed the hiding check, as well as both creatures' Passive Perception value, beat the player check value.
So my questions
a) What was nagging at the back of my head was that I let the Rogue ride that 22 stealth check for too long that maybe I should have made a 'refreshed' check at certain stop points like when she went back to inform the party what she saw or once she entered the cavern to hide behind the pillars. Maybe there were more spots to have her roll again but I just wanted to get an outside opinion.
b) I did not reward surprise because two out of the three-party member were successfully hidden but one did not and could have been seen or sensed because he did not beat either creatures' Passive Perception. What was nagging me hear was that at a group check level the stealth succeeded but I'm wondering if I was just trying to rationalize a surprise. So I'm asking by not awarding surprise was this handled correctly or should I have done something different.
The Rogue can't stay under their initial Stealth check if they stop to explain what they saw.
If you allow a Group check, if more than half the party succeeds, they all do.
Was I correct in the case that the stealth check the whole party would have made, using your point that the rogue would need to roll a new one, would remain from the hallway to the pillars and count as the hide without having to roll again? Meaning it could be just one roll and not needing it broken up to preform the hide behind the pillar check?
As long as the conditions that allow a Hide check are met, you can keep it without a reroll. In the hallway, the Stealth quick was based on being quiet as, line of sight couldn't be established by the enemies. As far as the cave entrance and pillar arrangement goes, if they could move around without being in plain sight as in some kind of partial cover and kept quiet, they should be fine. Remember that you can add or subtract 5 from an enemies Passive Perception if there is good reason, or you could do the reverse and give Advantage/Disadvantage to the players rolls.
Makes sense to me. The rogue rolled stealth to scout out the area and report back, I agree that that's one "thing" to do so just one check.
I would have probably asked for a second roll from the rogue here. The first one was an individual check to scout, this one is a group check to get in position... seems like it's a totally separate "thing to do" so requires a second check.
I agree there, I'd treat the second stealth check as "getting into position to attack" and not break that down further into sub-actions. Probably shouldn't matter, because I'd hope a rogue can pass a DC10
Yep, so the group check would pass. In this case I'd say the passive perceptions don't even matter because the specific rules for the encounter (" Because the demons are occupied, the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise.") override the general rules.
Oh man. that doesn't sound good to me. The encounter rules you're quoting specifically say "the characters can attempt a DC 10 group Dexterity (Stealth) check to get into position behind the stone pillars and attack with surprise." The characters did exactly that - passed a DC10 group Dex (Stealth) check, got into position behind the pillars, and so they should get surprise.
Yep, I agree there. I generally would call for a second check if it's a substantially different action than the first one, possibly something more difficult or just a new thing to do. In this case I'd probably rule that "scouting out the area" is one check and "getting into position as a group" is a second.
Yeah, in a group check if more than half of the group succeeds, then the whole group succeeds.
The rules for surprise are IMO kind of silly though, for exactly this reason, and I've been super happy that in the campaign I'm playing in the DM homebrewed them a bit.