Greetings dear players of dnd. I have searched many fora and opinions in trying to find out how the passive senses need to be interpreted. One of these can be found in this link: James Haeck on D&D Writing
Based on what he has said I wrote below interpretation. What is your opinion about it and what about the new options/instruments that can be used with passive abilities? Please don't mind to GM/DM me :s
How the base score of 10 needs to be interpreted
When you have an infinite amount of time, you can always keep on activating an ability until you get the perfect score. The base score of 10 is derived from this principle. When you have an infinite amount of times that you can throw a D20 then the average score that you will get is 10. This is why 10 is the base score. But at what time has enough time passed to get to the base score of 10? Let us make an example:
We are going to throw 20 times a D20. This is to make sure that all possible values can be hit. We will go form lowest value 1 to highest 20. As time interval we will take 6 seconds, the time that a turn in a battle takes. Left will be the time and right the value
Time
Value
Adjusted average value
06 sec
1
0.5
12 sec
2
1
18 sec
3
1.5
24 sec
4
2
30 sec
5
2.5
36 sec
6
3
42 sec
7
3.5
48 sec
8
4
54 sec
9
4.5
60 sec
10
5
66 sec
11
5.5
72 sec
12
6
78 sec
13
6.5
84 sec
14
7
90 sec
15
7.5
96 sec
16
8
102 sec
17
8.5
108 sec
18
9
114 sec
19
9.5
120 sec
20
10
After 20 rolls you will have 10 averaging the score value. This means that when interpreting the passive ability, that can only be used / reach it maximum proficiency when there is an infinite amount of time, the passive ability only gets the max base score of 10 after 120 seconds of time.
To say it differently the base score of 10 should only be available when at least 120 seconds of time is available when using a specific ability.
Base score value in game time
Below a table of what the base score should be over time:
After sec in time
Base score
12 sec
1
24 sec
2
36 sec
3
48 sec
4
60 sec
5
72 sec
6
84 sec
7
96 sec
8
108 sec
9
120 sec +
10
Now let us keep it easy and only take 3 time and base scores:
Time in seconds
Base score
0-59 sec
0
60-119 sec
5
120 sec +
10
To calculate the total passive senses score you need: “base score” + “skill modifier” + “feat modifier” + “situation modifier”.
Examples – Passive perception
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, wisdom score of “18”, expertise in perception. Its passive perception is:
Base score: 10
Skill modifier: +8
Wisdom modifier: +4
Expertise modifier: +4
Feat modifier: +5 (observant feat)
Situation modifier: disadvantage (-5) or advantage (+5) situation
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive perception of 23
Example: Warehouse ambush
0-59 seconds in game time
Our rogue just opened the door to a large warehouse. When entering we all go to the center of the warehouse to see what is happening. In game, time passed between 0 and 59 seconds. (This means that the base score that should be used is “0”) The passive perception of this rogue is 13.
0-59 seconds in game time – bad visibility
Due to bad lighting conditions the visibility is very low. The situation modifier gives disadvantage and gives -5 to the passive perception score creating a total of 8.
60-119 seconds in game time
Base score goes from 0 to 5 because the longer the rogue is present in a room or situation they get better in their perception. The new passive perception score: 13 + 5 = 18.
120+ seconds in game time
Like described before when enough time is given the passive perception base score gets its full value, giving a new score of 13 + 10 = 23 and at full skill capacity.
Conclusion
As you can see even for a warehouse ambush and the idea that passive senses are minimum values, when the circumstances are perfect, you can still give players a hard ambush time, when everything is not in the players advantage.
Example: Get out of the dungeon
We are being chased by goblins and we can’t fight them all, we are running and running through different tunnels when we suddenly entered a room with no way out. It is very dark and our rogue doesn’t have dark vision. The secret doorway has a difficulty of 20.
0 – 5 sec: With base score at 0 and disadvantage due to bad visibility, the rogue’s passive perception score is 8. Rolling a d20 gives me the opportunity to get a higher perception score than 8, but I threw a natural 1. We don’t have much time left before the goblins are catching up on us.
6 – 11 sec: Our druid immediately cast a spell that lights the entire room taking the disadvantage of bad lighting away: the passive perception score goes to 13.
12 - 23 sec: I put on “Eyes of the Eagle”. This gives the rogue an advantage on perception checks that rely on sight. This advantage increases the score of passive perception with 5 and the total is now 18.
24 sec -54 sec: Not having found a way out we are forced into battle with the goblins and we prepare for fighting.
54 sec – 59 sec: We take 1 battle round.
60 sec: The base score increases because I have had enough time to “feel the room”. Base score goes to 5 and brings total score of passive perception to 23. Even when in battle this score goes up. In battle you can also take a turn to do a perception check, sacrificing an action. But when the passive perception becomes high enough the rogue will automatically find the hidden passage even without doing an active perception check and taking an action.
66 sec: The door had a difficulty of 20, so we automatically find it.
120 sec+: When more than 120 seconds would have passed the passive perception would have been 28 (base score 10 + skill modifier 8 + feat modifier observant 5 + Eyes of eagle advantage 5)
Examples – Passive investigation
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, intelligence score of “12” and no proficiency in investigation. Its passive Investigation is:
Base score: 10
Skill modifier: +1
Intelligence modifier: +1
No proficiency: 0
Feat modifier: +5 (observant feat)
Situation modifier: disadvantage (-5) or advantage (+5) situation
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive investigation of 16.
When there is no time pressure when an investigation is being executed, investigation checks should automatically have the minimum value of 16. There are also some items you can buy that improves your investigation checks.
Eyes of Minute Seeing
Wondrous item, uncommon
"These crystal lenses fit over the eyes. While wearing them, you can see much better than normal out to a range of 1 foot. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks that rely on sight while searching an area or studying an object within that range."
With the above item the advantage feature will increase the passive investigation score with +5, making the new value 21 of the passive investigation. This means that; when there is no time pressure and no other disadvantages, you can get an investigation minimum score of 21 and the only reason why you still role a die is to get a score even higher than that. When there is a lack of lighting in the room, making it difficult to see, but you cannot put a light on because you might get caught, this puts a disadvantage on of -5, lowering the passive investigation score giving it 16.
Keep in mind that passive senses are based on good circumstances and having sufficient time. When you investigate a room where a murder happened for clues. When you make an active investigation check and fail, then the passive score may be the minimum value but you can still give the player a time penalty. Like saying it took them 2 or 3 times longer than normal. You can also say that it took them so long to find all clues, that they receive one point of exhaustion. But not that the investigation failed. Because the passive investigation was high enough.
Examples – Passive insight combat
I’m playing a rogue inquisitive, one of the feature is:
Insightful Fighting
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don't have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it. This benefit lasts for 1 minute or until you successfully use this feature against a different target.
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, Wisdom score of “18” and expertise on insight. Its passive insight is:
Base score: 10
Skill modifier: +8
Wisdom modifier: +4
Expertise modifier: +4
Feat modifier: +0 (observant feat does not affect insight, only perception and investigation)
Situation modifier: disadvantage (-5) or advantage (+5) situation
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive insight of 18.”
How would this play out with the “insightful fighting”? What would the effect of time be on the passive insight and the base score of it? Insightful fighting needs an active ability check and will mainly be used in a combat situation. This means that the time will be 6 seconds. Like previous calculations this means that the base score would be 0. With 0 as base score the passive insight score would only be the skill ability modifier, in this case +8. But can there be a situation that we can take enough time to have a full base score of 10 in the calculation of passive insight? I would say yes…
Hiding out and inspecting the enemy. As a rogue stealth is important and creeping up to an enemy base and spying is an important job. When you do this first. You might have gained sufficient insight into the enemy to get a full base score or based on a d20 check maybe a following value of 0, 5 or 10. Giving a total passive insight score of 8, 13 or 18. Keep in mind the longer that you spy the higher the chance of getting caught.
Having fought the same type of enemy consistently enough over time or getting educated about an enemy’s fighting style. As a level 1 character you don’t have a lot of fighting experience. The more battles fought the more you know how certain enemy’s react. This creates the possibility to split up passive insight into different enemy knowledge groups(Giants, Goblins, Dragons,…) Example:
No proficiency in goblin fighting tactics: base score of 0
Proficiency in goblin fighting tactics: base score of 5
Expertise in goblin fighting tactics: base score of 10
Freestyle fighting enemies are targets that cannot be analyzed. They are too diverse to get educated on. Think about fighting against a Boss, general,… These will never allow the usage of the passive insight score and you always need an active D20 role to pass.
Insight in fighting tactics
Increasing the base score of the passive insight based on knowledge of fighting tactics:
When having fought a specific enemy group/race enough times
With training and knowledge gathered at the military academy
To gain proficiency and get a base score of 5: rarity = uncommon/rare
To gain expertise and get a base score of 10: rarity = rare/very rare
At expertise level you can add something extra: insightful fighting does not require a bonus action to do an insight check, when passive score is already high enough, all enemies can get a sneak attack without the need to have advantage or having an enemy within 5 feet.
This can be really important because you can then take your bonus action to do something ells
Can use two handed fighting and get sneak without an enemy being within 5 feet of the target or advantage.
A combination of both: You can gain proficiency with only fighting the enemy but never expertise without military training and education.
Examples – Passive insight non-combat
When trying to figure out whether or not someone is lying we take an insight check. When the passive score is the minimum value this means that you might always know when someone is lying. When taking the idea of time into the concept. We can also say that the passive insight score only gets its highest value when interpreting someone that you have been dealing with over multiple interactions and not when just met someone.
You know very well when your party members are lying because you are always together and spend a of time with them.
You know well when your own sister, brother or parents are lying because you grew up with them.
But when you see someone for the very first time, it is difficult for you to get insight on someone.
Conclusion
Passive senses should not be seen as an outright minimum score. There are a lot of influences that can still make it difficult/easier and increase or lower the score in this base score interpretation. I hope that this gives a different insight in what passive abilities can be used for.
This is an exhaustively detailed analysis built upon assumptions that I almost entirely disagree with :)
Agreed, a lot of things wrong about the analysis, but the most striking one is that what matters for perception isn't the average score you roll in x seconds, but the highest score.
This is an exhaustively detailed analysis built upon assumptions that I almost entirely disagree with :)
Agreed, a lot of things wrong about the analysis, but the most striking one is that what matters for perception isn't the average score you roll in x seconds, but the highest score.
Ok, but thank you for your opinion. If I'm not mistaken you are mainly aiming at the base score calculation that needs to be 10 outright without the timing effect. Which is off course the entirety of my idea. Ok back to the drawing table with it then. ;)
edit: But what about the idea that passive investigation/insight should also be a minimum score when doing investigation/insight checks?
edit 2: I realize this thread can end up in what is passive senses question... But how about making passive senses bigger as a whole concept? This is also something that I tried to put into it.
Passives, at least the way I use them, are for repeated actions outside combat and actions that are secret and opposed by another roll.
If you're walking through a dungeon looking for traps, passive perception, if you happen to only look for traps at the one location where there actually is a trap, roll for it instead. Sometimes it will be both because the party is looking for traps everywhere but some spot looks suspicious so they want to double check it.
If a creature is hiding from the party, it rolls stealth vs passive perception. If a PC takes an action to search for the creature, they can also roll perception to find it. This isn't because passive perception is a floor exactly, but because only one d20 is necessary to be sufficiently random.
Overall, increasing the amount of passive checks beyond the point where it's already called for isn't really a good thing IMO. Once you've eliminated the checks for repeated actions, eliminating any more checks will likely reduce player engagement with the character.
Got my first high level rogue relatively recently and I recommend trying an 11+ rogue for anyone considering increasing the roll of passive checks. There developed a weird divide between things I could succeed at 100% of the time and things with a 50% or higher failure rate. This meant things were either boring or unlikely to work, neither of which made me want to play more. In the future I will probably avoid making characters with more than 10 levels in rogue because of this.
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How the base score of 10 needs to be interpreted
When you have an infinite amount of time, you can always keep on activating an ability until you get the perfect score. The base score of 10 is derived from this principle. When you have an infinite amount of times that you can throw a D20 then the average score that you will get is 10. This is why 10 is the base score.
But at what time has enough time passed to get to the base score of 10? Let us make an example:
We are going to throw 20 times a D20. This is to make sure that all possible values can be hit. We will go form lowest value 1 to highest 20. As time interval we will take 6 seconds, the time that a turn in a battle takes.
Left will be the time and right the value
Time
Value
Adjusted average value
06 sec
1
0.5
12 sec
2
1
18 sec
3
1.5
24 sec
4
2
30 sec
5
2.5
36 sec
6
3
42 sec
7
3.5
48 sec
8
4
54 sec
9
4.5
60 sec
10
5
66 sec
11
5.5
72 sec
12
6
78 sec
13
6.5
84 sec
14
7
90 sec
15
7.5
96 sec
16
8
102 sec
17
8.5
108 sec
18
9
114 sec
19
9.5
120 sec
20
10
After 20 rolls you will have 10 averaging the score value. This means that when interpreting the passive ability, that can only be used / reach it maximum proficiency when there is an infinite amount of time, the passive ability only gets the max base score of 10 after 120 seconds of time.
To say it differently the base score of 10 should only be available when at least 120 seconds of time is available when using a specific ability.
Base score value in game time
Below a table of what the base score should be over time:
After sec in time
Base score
12 sec
1
24 sec
2
36 sec
3
48 sec
4
60 sec
5
72 sec
6
84 sec
7
96 sec
8
108 sec
9
120 sec +
10
Now let us keep it easy and only take 3 time and base scores:
Time in seconds
Base score
0-59 sec
0
60-119 sec
5
120 sec +
10
To calculate the total passive senses score you need: “base score” + “skill modifier” + “feat modifier” + “situation modifier”.
Examples – Passive perception
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, wisdom score of “18”, expertise in perception. Its passive perception is:
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive perception of 23
Example: Warehouse ambush
0-59 seconds in game time
Our rogue just opened the door to a large warehouse. When entering we all go to the center of the warehouse to see what is happening.
In game, time passed between 0 and 59 seconds. (This means that the base score that should be used is “0”) The passive perception of this rogue is 13.
0-59 seconds in game time – bad visibility
Due to bad lighting conditions the visibility is very low. The situation modifier gives disadvantage and gives -5 to the passive perception score creating a total of 8.
60-119 seconds in game time
Base score goes from 0 to 5 because the longer the rogue is present in a room or situation they get better in their perception. The new passive perception score: 13 + 5 = 18.
120+ seconds in game time
Like described before when enough time is given the passive perception base score gets its full value, giving a new score of 13 + 10 = 23 and at full skill capacity.
Conclusion
As you can see even for a warehouse ambush and the idea that passive senses are minimum values, when the circumstances are perfect, you can still give players a hard ambush time, when everything is not in the players advantage.
Example: Get out of the dungeon
We are being chased by goblins and we can’t fight them all, we are running and running through different tunnels when we suddenly entered a room with no way out. It is very dark and our rogue doesn’t have dark vision. The secret doorway has a difficulty of 20.
0 – 5 sec: With base score at 0 and disadvantage due to bad visibility, the rogue’s passive perception score is 8. Rolling a d20 gives me the opportunity to get a higher perception score than 8, but I threw a natural 1. We don’t have much time left before the goblins are catching up on us.
6 – 11 sec: Our druid immediately cast a spell that lights the entire room taking the disadvantage of bad lighting away: the passive perception score goes to 13.
12 - 23 sec: I put on “Eyes of the Eagle”. This gives the rogue an advantage on perception checks that rely on sight. This advantage increases the score of passive perception with 5 and the total is now 18.
24 sec -54 sec: Not having found a way out we are forced into battle with the goblins and we prepare for fighting.
54 sec – 59 sec: We take 1 battle round.
60 sec: The base score increases because I have had enough time to “feel the room”. Base score goes to 5 and brings total score of passive perception to 23. Even when in battle this score goes up. In battle you can also take a turn to do a perception check, sacrificing an action. But when the passive perception becomes high enough the rogue will automatically find the hidden passage even without doing an active perception check and taking an action.
66 sec: The door had a difficulty of 20, so we automatically find it.
120 sec+: When more than 120 seconds would have passed the passive perception would have been 28 (base score 10 + skill modifier 8 + feat modifier observant 5 + Eyes of eagle advantage 5)
Examples – Passive investigation
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, intelligence score of “12” and no proficiency in investigation. Its passive Investigation is:
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive investigation of 16.
When there is no time pressure when an investigation is being executed, investigation checks should automatically have the minimum value of 16. There are also some items you can buy that improves your investigation checks.
Eyes of Minute Seeing
Wondrous item, uncommon
"These crystal lenses fit over the eyes. While wearing them, you can see much better than normal out to a range of 1 foot. You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks that rely on sight while searching an area or studying an object within that range."
With the above item the advantage feature will increase the passive investigation score with +5, making the new value 21 of the passive investigation. This means that; when there is no time pressure and no other disadvantages, you can get an investigation minimum score of 21 and the only reason why you still role a die is to get a score even higher than that.
When there is a lack of lighting in the room, making it difficult to see, but you cannot put a light on because you might get caught, this puts a disadvantage on of -5, lowering the passive investigation score giving it 16.
Keep in mind that passive senses are based on good circumstances and having sufficient time. When you investigate a room where a murder happened for clues. When you make an active investigation check and fail, then the passive score may be the minimum value but you can still give the player a time penalty. Like saying it took them 2 or 3 times longer than normal. You can also say that it took them so long to find all clues, that they receive one point of exhaustion. But not that the investigation failed. Because the passive investigation was high enough.
Examples – Passive insight combat
I’m playing a rogue inquisitive, one of the feature is:
Insightful Fighting
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don't have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.
This benefit lasts for 1 minute or until you successfully use this feature against a different target.
Let us take an example of level 4 rogue with the feat “Observant”, Wisdom score of “18” and expertise on insight. Its passive insight is:
This gives this fourth level rogue a passive insight of 18.”
How would this play out with the “insightful fighting”? What would the effect of time be on the passive insight and the base score of it? Insightful fighting needs an active ability check and will mainly be used in a combat situation. This means that the time will be 6 seconds. Like previous calculations this means that the base score would be 0. With 0 as base score the passive insight score would only be the skill ability modifier, in this case +8.
But can there be a situation that we can take enough time to have a full base score of 10 in the calculation of passive insight? I would say yes…
Keep in mind the longer that you spy the higher the chance of getting caught.
Freestyle fighting enemies are targets that cannot be analyzed. They are too diverse to get educated on. Think about fighting against a Boss, general,… These will never allow the usage of the passive insight score and you always need an active D20 role to pass.
Insight in fighting tactics
Increasing the base score of the passive insight based on knowledge of fighting tactics:
Examples – Passive insight non-combat
When trying to figure out whether or not someone is lying we take an insight check. When the passive score is the minimum value this means that you might always know when someone is lying. When taking the idea of time into the concept. We can also say that the passive insight score only gets its highest value when interpreting someone that you have been dealing with over multiple interactions and not when just met someone.
Conclusion
Passive senses should not be seen as an outright minimum score. There are a lot of influences that can still make it difficult/easier and increase or lower the score in this base score interpretation. I hope that this gives a different insight in what passive abilities can be used for.
This is an exhaustively detailed analysis built upon assumptions that I almost entirely disagree with :)
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Agreed, a lot of things wrong about the analysis, but the most striking one is that what matters for perception isn't the average score you roll in x seconds, but the highest score.
Ok, but thank you for your opinion. If I'm not mistaken you are mainly aiming at the base score calculation that needs to be 10 outright without the timing effect. Which is off course the entirety of my idea.
Ok back to the drawing table with it then. ;)
edit: But what about the idea that passive investigation/insight should also be a minimum score when doing investigation/insight checks?
edit 2: I realize this thread can end up in what is passive senses question... But how about making passive senses bigger as a whole concept? This is also something that I tried to put into it.
Passives, at least the way I use them, are for repeated actions outside combat and actions that are secret and opposed by another roll.
If you're walking through a dungeon looking for traps, passive perception, if you happen to only look for traps at the one location where there actually is a trap, roll for it instead. Sometimes it will be both because the party is looking for traps everywhere but some spot looks suspicious so they want to double check it.
If a creature is hiding from the party, it rolls stealth vs passive perception. If a PC takes an action to search for the creature, they can also roll perception to find it. This isn't because passive perception is a floor exactly, but because only one d20 is necessary to be sufficiently random.
Overall, increasing the amount of passive checks beyond the point where it's already called for isn't really a good thing IMO. Once you've eliminated the checks for repeated actions, eliminating any more checks will likely reduce player engagement with the character.
Got my first high level rogue relatively recently and I recommend trying an 11+ rogue for anyone considering increasing the roll of passive checks. There developed a weird divide between things I could succeed at 100% of the time and things with a 50% or higher failure rate. This meant things were either boring or unlikely to work, neither of which made me want to play more. In the future I will probably avoid making characters with more than 10 levels in rogue because of this.