As the DM, I've been in a number of situations where, upon opening the door to a room in a dungeon, the players stand and fire, forcing the fight to come to them. Then, when the creature(s) step up to the plate, the wizard casts flaming sphere behind them - which is great crowd control playing! and a great tactic. All well and good.
I applaud this, but, as DM, want to work a way around it.
A few scenarios:
The door is five feet wide and the characters are stacked in a line, the fighter first, ranged taking their -2 to hit for cover. Can the creature shove the first player, attempting to create a domino effect, freeing up the doorway for others to move through? Would this simply be a contended strength check with an advantage on a multi-party side, or no advantage if both sides had more than two creatures shoving?
The door is five feet wide and the characters are stacked in a line. Can you overrun multiple players in a row? I'm guessing strength check per character and each square would be difficult terrain which would eat up your movement really quickly, and given you can't end your move in an occupied square you couldn't do this past more than two opponents with a 30ft move anyway.
The door is ten feet wide and we have two abreast. Shove, per the above scenario, would play out the same, except that when you move into that space, there would be an AoO,
The door is ten feet wide and we have two abreast. If a large creature were to overrun or shove, could he do it on both players at the same time? Would he need to roll against both players or would they have 'aid another'?
Sorry if this appears haphazard, I've tried to be concise :-)
These are all non-RAW uses of abilities so its going to be best judgement. RAW if you shove a creature into an invalid space (like a wall) nothing happens. As DM you can set reasonable other things to happen.
1. No. Players are not gelatinous cubes, they are using up maybe 1/4 or less of their 5ft square. So pushing over all the players in a line is not going to happen. I would allow you to push the first guy into another space, causing both of the players to be considered squeezing until one of them moves. I might give the defender advantage to avoid getting shoved into his allies spot, as his ally would undoubtedly try to help a bit, and this applies a more powerful effect than just movement.
Squeezing into a Smaller Space
A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it. Thus, a Large creature can squeeze through a passage that's only 5 feet wide. While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it's in the smaller space.
2. Overrunning, using the DMG variant rule requires an action or bonus action, meaning you could at most pass 2 creatures with it. I would rule that each creature you overrun is swapped with you. So that if you ran past 2 in the line, the line would then look like Hero, Hero, BadGuy, Hero, Hero.
3.Overrunning creatures doesn't negate your AoO btw. In scenario 2, you are going to get swings if you leave a threatened space. This might also be a scenario you would use the shove aside option, which gives you more control on the placement of shoved creatures,
4. Shoving would target one creature, overrunning would by necessity target both creatures. I would rule he gets 1 roll with advantage (since he is larger), each defender attempts to overcome that number, if either beats it he is stopped.
Thank you, Thain, for taking the time to give it so much thought,
1. "...causing both of the players to be considered squeezing until one of them moves". I like this idea. Like when you were in the playground at school and friends would push each other into one another (or was that just my school?!). You'd end up tangled. Thus, despite two players not being able to end the turn in the same 5ft square, they would be considered squeezed until one of them moves from that spot before their next turn ... I agree with giving the defender advantage, envisaging a, slightly less intense, shield wall.
2. I also like the idea of swapping figures in an overrun scenario and since we're not playing the flanking optional rules, it isn't too much of a gamble - save AoO, where, as you say, shove aside could be more useful.
3. Ok.
4. Personally, I'd be inclined to allow a large creature to shove two medium creatures, one with each hand (or relevant appendage). It necessarily follows in my mind that if you command 10ft, you command two 5ft areas in front of you. I have an image of Andre the GIant in The Princess Bride.
"4. Personally, I'd be inclined to allow a large creature to shove two medium creatures, one with each hand (or relevant appendage). It necessarily follows in my mind that if you command 10ft, you command two 5ft areas in front of you. I have an image of Andre the GIant in The Princess Bride."
That's your right as the DM, my only thought would be, if you include this rule, when a PC gets a feature or a spell affect that makes them large, that it be the same for them!
Ultimately, given RAW is pretty balanced and safe, I usually stick by that; you can always just homebrew a monster and give it a cool ability, "When this creature makes a shove attack action, the creature can make a separate shove attack against another adjacent creature, within both 5ft of itself and its initial target."
It really does come down to what you think is the most fun! keep in mind there's also things that exist in the game like repelling blast and spell sniper, now a "level 11" warlock-like villain/monster could use 3 beams of crackling energy and try and line them up to clear the doorway for a bruiser! Or perhaps they all get in that room and the large creature hurls it's own area of affect about to detonate explosive, shutting the door and holding it shut on their side! now all of a sudden the character's tried and true tactic is no longer the "easy" solution and they need to find a way to counter that explosive affect or leave the room!
As someone who plays and DMs, I think the main thing is you keep it fun and fair! If villains can do it, players should be able to attempt to do it too.
The door is five feet wide and the characters are stacked in a line, the fighter first, ranged taking their -2 to hit for cover. Can the creature shove the first player, attempting to create a domino effect, freeing up the doorway for others to move through? Would this simply be a contended strength check with an advantage on a multi-party side, or no advantage if both sides had more than two creatures shoving?
The door is five feet wide and the characters are stacked in a line. Can you overrun multiple players in a row? I'm guessing strength check per character and each square would be difficult terrain which would eat up your movement really quickly, and given you can't end your move in an occupied square you couldn't do this past more than two opponents with a 30ft move anyway.
The door is ten feet wide and we have two abreast. Shove, per the above scenario, would play out the same, except that when you move into that space, there would be an AoO,
The door is ten feet wide and we have two abreast. If a large creature were to overrun or shove, could he do it on both players at the same time? Would he need to roll against both players or would they have 'aid another'?
Shove only target one creature that you knock prone or push 5 feet away from you following a successful Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, a Shove replaces one of them.
You can move through an unnoccupied space or a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Another creature's space is difficult terrain and whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. So a large creature can move through an hostile small or tiny creature's space, but not a medium one. For that it'd need to be tiny or huge.
You provoke an opportunity attack only if you leave a hostile creature's reach.
There is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master Guide called Overrun that was specifically designed for that scenario, which also target one creature and require an action or bonus action.
Overrun: When a creature tries to move through a hostile creature’s space, the mover can try to force its way through by overrunning the hostile creature. As an action or a bonus action, the mover makes a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the hostile creature’s Strength (Athletics) check. The creature attempting the overrun has advantage on this check if it is larger than the hostile creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller. If the mover wins the contest, it can move through the hostile creature’s space once this turn.
There's another optional rule in the Dungeon Master Guide called Shove Aside that let you moves the target 5 feet to a different space within its reach.
Shove Aside: With this option, a creature uses the special shove attack from the Player’s Handbook to force a target to the side, rather than away. The attacker has disadvantage on its Strength (Athletics) check when it does so. If that check is successful, the attacker moves the target 5 feet to a different space within its reach.
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Hi, All,
I've checked the "Beta Report - The Morning After" post by BadEye and haven't found anything on this point.
As the DM, I've been in a number of situations where, upon opening the door to a room in a dungeon, the players stand and fire, forcing the fight to come to them. Then, when the creature(s) step up to the plate, the wizard casts flaming sphere behind them - which is great crowd control playing! and a great tactic. All well and good.
I applaud this, but, as DM, want to work a way around it.
A few scenarios:
Sorry if this appears haphazard, I've tried to be concise :-)
Thanks.
These are all non-RAW uses of abilities so its going to be best judgement. RAW if you shove a creature into an invalid space (like a wall) nothing happens. As DM you can set reasonable other things to happen.
1. No. Players are not gelatinous cubes, they are using up maybe 1/4 or less of their 5ft square. So pushing over all the players in a line is not going to happen. I would allow you to push the first guy into another space, causing both of the players to be considered squeezing until one of them moves. I might give the defender advantage to avoid getting shoved into his allies spot, as his ally would undoubtedly try to help a bit, and this applies a more powerful effect than just movement.
2. Overrunning, using the DMG variant rule requires an action or bonus action, meaning you could at most pass 2 creatures with it. I would rule that each creature you overrun is swapped with you. So that if you ran past 2 in the line, the line would then look like Hero, Hero, BadGuy, Hero, Hero.
3.Overrunning creatures doesn't negate your AoO btw. In scenario 2, you are going to get swings if you leave a threatened space. This might also be a scenario you would use the shove aside option, which gives you more control on the placement of shoved creatures,
4. Shoving would target one creature, overrunning would by necessity target both creatures. I would rule he gets 1 roll with advantage (since he is larger), each defender attempts to overcome that number, if either beats it he is stopped.
Thank you, Thain, for taking the time to give it so much thought,
1. "...causing both of the players to be considered squeezing until one of them moves". I like this idea. Like when you were in the playground at school and friends would push each other into one another (or was that just my school?!). You'd end up tangled. Thus, despite two players not being able to end the turn in the same 5ft square, they would be considered squeezed until one of them moves from that spot before their next turn ... I agree with giving the defender advantage, envisaging a, slightly less intense, shield wall.
2. I also like the idea of swapping figures in an overrun scenario and since we're not playing the flanking optional rules, it isn't too much of a gamble - save AoO, where, as you say, shove aside could be more useful.
3. Ok.
4. Personally, I'd be inclined to allow a large creature to shove two medium creatures, one with each hand (or relevant appendage). It necessarily follows in my mind that if you command 10ft, you command two 5ft areas in front of you. I have an image of Andre the GIant in The Princess Bride.
That's your right as the DM, my only thought would be, if you include this rule, when a PC gets a feature or a spell affect that makes them large, that it be the same for them!
Ultimately, given RAW is pretty balanced and safe, I usually stick by that; you can always just homebrew a monster and give it a cool ability, "When this creature makes a shove attack action, the creature can make a separate shove attack against another adjacent creature, within both 5ft of itself and its initial target."
It really does come down to what you think is the most fun! keep in mind there's also things that exist in the game like repelling blast and spell sniper, now a "level 11" warlock-like villain/monster could use 3 beams of crackling energy and try and line them up to clear the doorway for a bruiser! Or perhaps they all get in that room and the large creature hurls it's own area of affect about to detonate explosive, shutting the door and holding it shut on their side! now all of a sudden the character's tried and true tactic is no longer the "easy" solution and they need to find a way to counter that explosive affect or leave the room!
As someone who plays and DMs, I think the main thing is you keep it fun and fair! If villains can do it, players should be able to attempt to do it too.
Shove only target one creature that you knock prone or push 5 feet away from you following a successful Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, a Shove replaces one of them.
You can move through an unnoccupied space or a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Another creature's space is difficult terrain and whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. So a large creature can move through an hostile small or tiny creature's space, but not a medium one. For that it'd need to be tiny or huge.
You provoke an opportunity attack only if you leave a hostile creature's reach.
There is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master Guide called Overrun that was specifically designed for that scenario, which also target one creature and require an action or bonus action.
There's another optional rule in the Dungeon Master Guide called Shove Aside that let you moves the target 5 feet to a different space within its reach.