I'm building a campaign centered around chaos and war crimes - is there a patron god of this sort?

I mean, if you're using a homebrew setting you can just make one up, otherwise pretty much any CE god will generally be down for that stuff; going by some FR novels I've read Cyric and Talona are pretty into the "ravage, pillage, and burn" bit.

Gruumsh is a good default option, but any CE god who's portfolio includes battle or destruction works.  Demon lords are also good options: Baphomet and Yeenoghu both fit pretty well.

Quote from TheDarkMarshal >>

I'm building a campaign centered around chaos and war crimes - is there a patron god of this sort?

 That's a very dark - and extremely weird - domain for a god to have. 

If you have a god of war, possibly that god is responsible for all aspects of war, war crimes included. However ... well, for war crimes to exist, war needs to be regulated by law, and such laws would propably be the domain of the god of war, so such a god might not be keen on those rules being broken.

And anyways, it's .... rather unlikely to me that anyone would get down before the altar and pray for succesful warcrimes. Victory, sure. Fertility, rich harvest, succes in business - all those are fine. But it's a very tiny segment that prays for torture and mass graves. I don't think that segment is enough to support it's own god.

I mean ... on the other hand, fantasy worlds are rife with deliberate evil, so maybe it is.

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from TheDarkMarshal >>

I'm building a campaign centered around chaos and war crimes - is there a patron god of this sort?

 That's a very dark - and extremely weird - domain for a god to have. 

If you have a god of war, possibly that god is responsible for all aspects of war, war crimes included. However ... well, for war crimes to exist, war needs to be regulated by law, and such laws would propably be the domain of the god of war, so such a god might not be keen on those rules being broken.

And anyways, it's .... rather unlikely to me that anyone would get down before the altar and pray for succesful warcrimes.

No, but there are plenty of gods in D&D who represent warfare in its most savage and destructive form.  It's not called "war crimes" because that's a more modern term but their followers are the ones who do the "****, pillage, & burn" style of warfare.

I mean, a god of music can commit war crimes easily, since hitting someone with a violin is apparently a war crime.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

No, but there are plenty of gods in D&D who represent warfare in its most savage and destructive form.  It's not called "war crimes" because that's a more modern term but their followers are the ones who do the "****, pillage, & burn" style of warfare.

 Yes. I find those highly dubious for the same reasons.

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

No, but there are plenty of gods in D&D who represent warfare in its most savage and destructive form.  It's not called "war crimes" because that's a more modern term but their followers are the ones who do the "****, pillage, & burn" style of warfare.

 Yes. I find those highly dubious for the same reasons.

You might be overthinking this slightly; it's not that they're specifically and exclusively into acts we would classify as "war crimes"; they're into acts of brutality, destruction, and subjugation in general, which would perforce include most of the classic images of a war crime. And it's really not too much of a stretch to imagine they'll find a niche; history is rife with examples of "we're killing you and taking your stuff because our god says we should have it", and here there's the added bonus that the deity is demonstrably an active and observable force in the setting who is also empowered/sustained by those acts and thus will work to push mortals into committing them.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You might be overthinking this slightly; it's not that they're specifically and exclusively into acts we would classify as "war crimes"; they're into acts of brutality, destruction, and subjugation in general, which would perforce include most of the classic images of a war crime. And it's really not too much of a stretch to imagine they'll find a niche; history is rife with examples of "we're killing you and taking your stuff because our god says we should have it", and here there's the added bonus that the deity is demonstrably an active and observable force in the setting who is also empowered/sustained by those acts and thus will work to push mortals into committing them.

 I'm sorry - but you're not really helping. I still find it extremely weird to have a god dedicated to 'brutality, destruction and subjugation'. 

Now, don't get me wrong, there have been some rather dark deities IRL. The 'devil' - regardless of religion - is sort of champion of all things bad. But there aren't really any devil worshippers. I met a group of ... such people, and engaged them in discussion. They argued for the right of the strong, might makes right, sort of thing. So ... I'm very much a non-violent person, but they don't know that, and for the sake of argument, I can be threatening enough. 

Now - by their argument, since I was stronger than them, it was my right to impose my will upon them. Might makes right. And would you believe - they didn't appreciate that at all. 

To me, that makes their 'faith' a sham. And of course I can't extrapolate from those guys to every 'devil worshipper' in the real world, or every follower of dark deities in fantasy worlds. But it's still my yardstick for how deep such faith runs. And I still find it dubious that dark deities have much of a following.

I mean, it's different for a god of death, or some such. We all lose someone over the course of our lives, and if we believe in any form of afterlife, we'd like for them to have a good one. 

But a god of war is just something to wave in the face of soldiers to promise 'victory'. No one worships war for the sake of it.

Except weapon merchants ... maybe.

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You might be overthinking this slightly; it's not that they're specifically and exclusively into acts we would classify as "war crimes"; they're into acts of brutality, destruction, and subjugation in general, which would perforce include most of the classic images of a war crime. And it's really not too much of a stretch to imagine they'll find a niche; history is rife with examples of "we're killing you and taking your stuff because our god says we should have it", and here there's the added bonus that the deity is demonstrably an active and observable force in the setting who is also empowered/sustained by those acts and thus will work to push mortals into committing them.

 I'm sorry - but you're not really helping. I still find it extremely weird to have a god dedicated to 'brutality, destruction and subjugation'. 

Now, don't get me wrong, there have been some rather dark deities IRL. The 'devil' - regardless of religion - is sort of champion of all things bad. But there aren't really any devil worshippers. I met a group of ... such people, and engaged them in discussion. They argued for the right of the strong, might makes right, sort of thing. So ... I'm very much a non-violent person, but they don't know that, and for the sake of argument, I can be threatening enough. 

Now - by their argument, since I was stronger than them, it was my right to impose my will upon them. Might makes right. And would you believe - they didn't appreciate that at all. 

To me, that makes their 'faith' a sham. And of course I can't extrapolate from those guys to every 'devil worshipper' in the real world, or every follower of dark deities in fantasy worlds. But it's still my yardstick for how deep such faith runs. And I still find it dubious that dark deities have much of a following.

I mean, it's different for a god of death, or some such. We all lose someone over the course of our lives, and if we believe in any form of afterlife, we'd like for them to have a good one. 

But a god of war is just something to wave in the face of soldiers to promise 'victory'. No one worships war for the sake of it.

 I'm sorry, but are you arguing against the existence of 50 years of D&D canon based on your personal religious beliefs?

Also, as a side note, Satanism isn't a real religion- it was something made up centuries ago by people who claimed that other people were practicing it and that's why those other people were bad and should be punished.  The only people who call themselves Satanists are teenagers who want to shock their parents and an atheist organization that fights against infringements on the First Amendment- basically if the ACLU dressed like they were going to a Slayer concert.

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You might be overthinking this slightly; it's not that they're specifically and exclusively into acts we would classify as "war crimes"; they're into acts of brutality, destruction, and subjugation in general, which would perforce include most of the classic images of a war crime. And it's really not too much of a stretch to imagine they'll find a niche; history is rife with examples of "we're killing you and taking your stuff because our god says we should have it", and here there's the added bonus that the deity is demonstrably an active and observable force in the setting who is also empowered/sustained by those acts and thus will work to push mortals into committing them.

 I'm sorry - but you're not really helping. I still find it extremely weird to have a god dedicated to 'brutality, destruction and subjugation'. 

Now, don't get me wrong, there have been some rather dark deities IRL. The 'devil' - regardless of religion - is sort of champion of all things bad. But there aren't really any devil worshippers. I met a group of ... such people, and engaged them in discussion. They argued for the right of the strong, might makes right, sort of thing. So ... I'm very much a non-violent person, but they don't know that, and for the sake of argument, I can be threatening enough. 

Now - by their argument, since I was stronger than them, it was my right to impose my will upon them. Might makes right. And would you believe - they didn't appreciate that at all. 

To me, that makes their 'faith' a sham. And of course I can't extrapolate from those guys to every 'devil worshipper' in the real world, or every follower of dark deities in fantasy worlds. But it's still my yardstick for how deep such faith runs. And I still find it dubious that dark deities have much of a following.

I mean, it's different for a god of death, or some such. We all lose someone over the course of our lives, and if we believe in any form of afterlife, we'd like for them to have a good one. 

But a god of war is just something to wave in the face of soldiers to promise 'victory'. No one worships war for the sake of it.

 The Greeks had two war gods, and Ares at least somewhat overlaps with the idea here.

Of course, in polytheistic societies, people didn't worship single gods in the way that people used to monotheism tend to think. The did the appropriate rites to whatever gods were appropriate to their current situation. When war is a fact of life, there are going to be gods with it in their domain. Soldiers will ask for victory, bystanders will pray that their homes escape destruction, parents will beg that their children be spared, etc.

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You might be overthinking this slightly; it's not that they're specifically and exclusively into acts we would classify as "war crimes"; they're into acts of brutality, destruction, and subjugation in general, which would perforce include most of the classic images of a war crime. And it's really not too much of a stretch to imagine they'll find a niche; history is rife with examples of "we're killing you and taking your stuff because our god says we should have it", and here there's the added bonus that the deity is demonstrably an active and observable force in the setting who is also empowered/sustained by those acts and thus will work to push mortals into committing them.

 I'm sorry - but you're not really helping. I still find it extremely weird to have a god dedicated to 'brutality, destruction and subjugation'. 

Now, don't get me wrong, there have been some rather dark deities IRL. The 'devil' - regardless of religion - is sort of champion of all things bad. But there aren't really any devil worshippers. I met a group of ... such people, and engaged them in discussion. They argued for the right of the strong, might makes right, sort of thing. So ... I'm very much a non-violent person, but they don't know that, and for the sake of argument, I can be threatening enough. 

Now - by their argument, since I was stronger than them, it was my right to impose my will upon them. Might makes right. And would you believe - they didn't appreciate that at all. 

To me, that makes their 'faith' a sham. And of course I can't extrapolate from those guys to every 'devil worshipper' in the real world, or every follower of dark deities in fantasy worlds. But it's still my yardstick for how deep such faith runs. And I still find it dubious that dark deities have much of a following.

I mean, it's different for a god of death, or some such. We all lose someone over the course of our lives, and if we believe in any form of afterlife, we'd like for them to have a good one. 

But a god of war is just something to wave in the face of soldiers to promise 'victory'. No one worships war for the sake of it.

In real life, no. In a fictional setting where there's beings who are literally sustained and empowered by such acts and can in turn empower or otherwise show their favor in response, that's a whole other dynamic.

There wouldn't be a god of "war crimes", that's way too technical a human and legal construct to be a way of articulating a divine domain.  There are gods of Tyranny in D&D's established/published worlds and there are gods of violence, brutality, etc. as well.  Actually calling a god in a pantheon "the war crimes god" is probably too glib for a serious description of a god, though it could be an epithet used by detractors of the god or the gods followers.  On the other hand, I could see a culture ascribing "war crimes" to the purview of any number of demons, devils.

Using IRL conversation where one logic pwns "dark god worshippers" (FWIW, most thought out modern Satanism and "dark god" quasi-neo-paganism is more in the Milton mode, the Devil being a deity of transgression against authority, non servium, antagonism toward norms for the greater liberation of the individual, etc. Although you do have some Neo-Nazi and other white supremacist pseudo-paganism of the "brutal survival of the fittest" as its creed, but those tend to be more predicated on simplistic myth-making than any real engagement with a thoughtful theology) doesn't really hold a lot of water in world building where divine beings can have a more literally tangible impact upon the world.  In such world, I see no reason to object to the possibility of a divine being charged with brutality wouldn't comprise their faith via exploiting a people or peoples with some nihilistic sense of grievance.

Here's an interesting idea, how about a god that was more "noble" over the war domain, but the god changes (maybe there's a god plague and in isolation the god in question develops unsound thinking and contempt for its better angels, or maybe the god suffers a great injury, there's no rules guidance but the notion that gods can be dynamic beings is something IRL religions contain that is not well served in traditional D&D pantheons), and the god's followers get in line behind its new more brutal ways.   

I could for example see a god that was usually associated with agriculture evolving into a wrathful god whose chosen people lay waste to other communities, scapegoating the neighbors for famine or pestilence.  I could see a justice god taking a heel turn in this fashion too.  Etc.  

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

 I'm sorry, but are you arguing against the existence of 50 years of D&D canon based on your personal religious beliefs?

Also, as a side note, Satanism isn't a real religion- it was something made up centuries ago by people who claimed that other people were practicing it and that's why those other people were bad and should be punished.  The only people who call themselves Satanists are teenagers who want to shock their parents and an atheist organization that fights against infringements on the First Amendment- basically if the ACLU dressed like they were going to a Slayer concert.

 Yes. What ... are you suggesting? That  I should argue counter to my personal beliefs. You'll have to find someone else for that.

Also, holds your horses: I'm aggressively atheist. But let's stay away from my, yours and everyone else's specific real life belief.

Quote from jl8e >>

 The Greeks had two war gods, and Ares at least somewhat overlaps with the idea here.

Of course, in polytheistic societies, people didn't worship single gods in the way that people used to monotheism tend to think. The did the appropriate rites to whatever gods were appropriate to their current situation. When war is a fact of life, there are going to be gods with it in their domain. Soldiers will ask for victory, bystanders will pray that their homes escape destruction, parents will beg that their children be spared, etc.

 But traditional gods of war are all about victory and honor and strength ... and whatever. They are definitely not about murdering innocents, torching villages, **** and pillage and plunder, mass graves and torture camps. 

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

In real life, no. In a fictional setting where there's beings who are literally sustained and empowered by such acts and can in turn empower or otherwise show their favor in response, that's a whole other dynamic.

 See - I'm sort of with you here. If we were to agree on a premise that there's a segment of the total population who are really into Evil for the sake of Evil - who sort of get their rocks on inflicting suffering on others for no real gain to themselves, and despite other, more succesful avenues being open - then yes, there could be gods that work like that, and sufficient worshippers for them to exist.

It's just that I don't. I do not accept that premise. Evil really is simply more functionalistic than that. Evil is Richard Longshanks (wasn't that his name) arguing that 'arrows cost money - the Irish cost nothing'. And at the outside, it's also 'let's take this minority of our population and send them into camps where they make artillery shells, while we starve them to death'. Doing unspeakable things to achieve sane goals. But doing unspeakable things without justification is insanity. It's pathological, and there aren't enough people like that to build a religion.

Anyways: My games run on grey zones, and players who think people of different alignments are fair game tend to leave early. 

But I'm aware I'm a minority here. And that's fine.

Quote from Acromos>>

Quote from 6thLyranGuard>>

 I'm sorry, but are you arguing against the existence of 50 years of D&D canon based on your personal religious beliefs?

Also, as a side note, Satanism isn't a real religion- it was something made up centuries ago by people who claimed that other people were practicing it and that's why those other people were bad and should be punished.  The only people who call themselves Satanists are teenagers who want to shock their parents and an atheist organization that fights against infringements on the First Amendment- basically if the ACLU dressed like they were going to a Slayer concert.

 Yes. What ... are you suggesting? That  I should argue counter to my personal beliefs. You'll have to find someone else for that.

Also, holds your horses: I'm aggressively atheist. But let's stay away from my, yours and everyone else's specific real life belief.

Quote from jl8e>>

 The Greeks had two war gods, and Ares at least somewhat overlaps with the idea here.

Of course, in polytheistic societies, people didn't worship single gods in the way that people used to monotheism tend to think. The did the appropriate rites to whatever gods were appropriate to their current situation. When war is a fact of life, there are going to be gods with it in their domain. Soldiers will ask for victory, bystanders will pray that their homes escape destruction, parents will beg that their children be spared, etc.

 But traditional gods of war are all about victory and honor and strength ... and whatever. They are definitely not about murdering innocents, torching villages, **** and pillage and plunder, mass graves and torture camps. 

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues>>

In real life, no. In a fictional setting where there's beings who are literally sustained and empowered by such acts and can in turn empower or otherwise show their favor in response, that's a whole other dynamic.

 See - I'm sort of with you here. If we were to agree on a premise that there's a segment of the total population who are really into Evil for the sake of Evil - who sort of get their rocks on inflicting suffering on others for no real gain to themselves, and despite other, more succesful avenues being open - then yes, there could be gods that work like that, and sufficient worshippers for them to exist.

It's just that I don't. I do not accept that premise. Evil really is simply more functionalistic than that. Evil is Richard Longshanks (wasn't that his name) arguing that 'arrows cost money - the Irish cost nothing'. And at the outside, it's also 'let's take this minority of our population and send them into camps where they make artillery shells, while we starve them to death'. Doing unspeakable things to achieve sane goals. But doing unspeakable things without justification is insanity. It's pathological, and there aren't enough people like that to build a religion.

Anyways: My games run on grey zones, and players who think people of different alignments are fair game tend to leave early. 

But I'm aware I'm a minority here. And that's fine.

 That's great, you do you, but it's again not relevant to how D&D has been written and there are gods who focus on doing evil stuff as the point rather than evil being the result of someone deciding that it's cheaper than not being evil.  Even in the real world, where there aren't any beings that give you supernatural powers based on how many people you've killed, sometimes evil gets committed because the violence and cruelty is the point.

Quote from Acromos >>

 

Quote from jl8e >>

 The Greeks had two war gods, and Ares at least somewhat overlaps with the idea here.

Of course, in polytheistic societies, people didn't worship single gods in the way that people used to monotheism tend to think. The did the appropriate rites to whatever gods were appropriate to their current situation. When war is a fact of life, there are going to be gods with it in their domain. Soldiers will ask for victory, bystanders will pray that their homes escape destruction, parents will beg that their children be spared, etc.

 But traditional gods of war are all about victory and honor and strength ... and whatever. They are definitely not about murdering innocents, torching villages, **** and pillage and plunder, mass graves and torture camps. 

 Well, the last one is probably a modern invention, but the rest were things that happened a lot, so there'd be gods who end up with that aspect.

From Wikipedia's entry on Ares:

The Greeks were ambivalent towards him. He embodies the physical valor necessary for success in war but can also personify sheer brutality and bloodlust, in contrast to his sister Athena, whose martial functions include military strategy and generalship. An association with Ares endows places, objects, and other deities with a savage, dangerous, or militarized quality.

So yeah, he's the Greek god of, among other things, war crimes. (Yes, I'm aware wikipedia is probably oversimplifying.)

If the OP is still around can they clarify, are you looking for a god who is in charge of those committing war crimes, or in charge of bringing to justice those who commit war crimes?

In either case, I’d imagine that would be part of a larger portfolio. But if it’s homebrew, and this is a major part of the setting, I’d just homebrew a couple gods to fit the concept. 

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

 

 So if there's so little reason to discuss anything that isn't in the rules ................................. what is it we're doing here? Why are there thousands if not hundreds of thousands of pages discussing all manner of things - in part interpretations of what is in the rules, but to a far greater degree ideas and opinions? Why is that?

Now. I'm gonna tie a nice little bow on this one: I'm here to discuss opinion - not fact. I've zero interest in rules discussions, and I'm going to be frank with you: My 'fluff' is better than the official line. So I'll stick to that, and you can stick to the other stuff. That's fine by me. It just means that we don't share a lot of middle ground where we can agree on anything. This, too, is perfectly fine with me. 

Quote from jl8e >>

 Well, the last one is probably a modern invention, but the rest were things that happened a lot, so there'd be gods who end up with that aspect.

From Wikipedia's entry on Ares:

The Greeks were ambivalent towards him. He embodies the physical valor necessary for success in war but can also personify sheer brutality and bloodlust, in contrast to his sister Athena, whose martial functions include military strategy and generalship. An association with Ares endows places, objects, and other deities with a savage, dangerous, or militarized quality.

So yeah, he's the Greek god of, among other things, war crimes. (Yes, I'm aware wikipedia is probably oversimplifying.) 

Wiki is a fine source. I'm Danish. Our gods of old were all about physical might and bloodlust and victory - but that's not the point. They were also about honor and courage and ... well all kinds of things. And your little blurp about Ares does not say 'and the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, death camps, poison gas and genocide'. Because no one of sound mind thinks those are valuable ideals - no one worships genocide, or labor death camps. 

Plunder is right on target. In war - even today - you take anything you can as you advance. And try to bring anything you can if you retreat. And while a god of plunder seems overly tropy to me, it's part of war. 

And something else: Historical cultures had slavery, arena combat, quite possibly ritual human sacrifice - and so on. They had wildly different moral standards than we do. But those are not the cultures we use in our RPG's. In part because the publishers wouldn't touch that with a (folding) 10 foot pole, but also because we quite frankly aren't really comfortable with it either. Oh, I'm sure some do - it's just that in 38 years of playing, I've never met any. 

So .. to me, it seems slightly off to have borderline present age moral standards - oh, and also a god of war crimes and enough followers for such a thing to exist. But your mileage may vary, maybe there are hundreds of thousands of worshippers who light candles and get down on their knees to pray for the invention of mustard gas. Who knows? =)

All I'm saying is that for me, the dot's just don't connect.