I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
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"And that day, a red rain fell from the sky here."
I don't think this is a right or wrong question. It's a hook you could use; but I'm curious, where would you go with this fact? The notion that Mind Flayers were somehow "engineered" possibly as a bioweapon is an available possibility, so who were their precursors.
I'm not sure if it was in an edition or just fan theory, but I vaguely remember lore that suggests Mind Flayers were once humans and are sort of retreating back through space/time to flee from some other existential threat that led them to become mind flayers in the first place. I had notes to a sort of Dr. Who inspired campaign where it turned out most Mind Flayers were much like the Ood from that show, though that wouldn't fit into the ecology you're speculating.
"Where did the Mind Flayers come from?" was explored to no satisfaction I believe in at least a couple of AD&D and 2e adventures. Bruce Cordell's trilogy alongside the Illithiad stands out among them. Actually if you want to deep dive into Mind Flayer lore the Illithiad from 2e will give you a lot to chew on.
More pedestrian explanation: Illithid's a lawful evil civilization of sophisticated domination and oppression. Neolethids are chaotic accidents lacking the intelligence to contribute to the Illithid manifest destiny and possessed of a capacity for not insignificant disruption to an Illithid colony. Of course they'd be suppressed.
Having neothlid as what are not produced and mind flayers as the things gone wrong would mean that most of the monsters are CR 15. This would stop you from having any encounters with more than 1 illithid. And also, they soon become un-scary if they are the norm.
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Having neothlid as what are not produced and mind flayers as the things gone wrong would mean that most of the monsters are CR 15. This would stop you from having any encounters with more than 1 illithid. And also, they soon become un-scary if they are the norm.
I'm not sure how neothelids being the natural form of a mind flayer would make the former any more common, or the latter any rarer. Mind flayers put the tadpoles inside humanoids, forcing them to become illithids. If a tadpole starts to become a neothelid, the mind flayers kill it first chance they get. Therefore, the rarity of both species stays the same.
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
If the mind flayers are the result of the reproduction cycle gone wrong, then, in general their would be far less of them created compared to the 99% not gone wrong procreation of neothlids.
Think about it this way: if mind flayers are their procreation messed up, and neothlid's are procreation gone normally, who do you think their's gonna be more of.
If you change the lore of mind flayers, you would have to change their history, and they would never have been the dominant species.The mind flayers would not have the numbers nor the strength (their almost less than twice as strong as a neothlid) to destroy the neothlid eggs before they hatched.
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
If the mind flayers are the result of the reproduction cycle gone wrong, then, in general their would be far less of them created compared to the 99% not gone wrong procreation of neothlids.
Think about it this way: if mind flayers are their procreation messed up, and neothlid's are procreation gone normally, who do you think their's gonna be more of.
If you change the lore of mind flayers, you would have to change their history, and they would never have been the dominant species.The mind flayers would not have the numbers nor the strength (their less than twice as strong as a neothlid) to destroy the neothlid eggs before they hatched.
I dunno, if Mind Flayers were an accident or intervention into a "natural" species reproductive cycle, there's lots of examples in agriculture and bioengineering or simply not scraping a ship's hull leading to said accident or intervention becoming an invasive apex in a biome. May Illithids are the equivalent of Mayfly or bioengineered rice in the Far Realm, it's just in the Prime Material that they're monstrous horrors of great power. That's the cool thing about the Far Realm, it doesn't need to really make sense.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
If the mind flayers are the result of the reproduction cycle gone wrong, then, in general their would be far less of them created compared to the 99% not gone wrong procreation of neothlids.
Think about it this way: if mind flayers are their procreation messed up, and neothlid's are procreation gone normally, who do you think their's gonna be more of.
If you change the lore of mind flayers, you would have to change their history, and they would never have been the dominant species.The mind flayers would not have the numbers nor the strength (their less than twice as strong as a neothlid) to destroy the neothlid eggs before they hatched.
The problem is that the mind flayers are wiping out neothelids first chance they get according to the official lore. Technically, neothelids are more common, but the mind flayers are aborting them before they reach maturity. I'm thinking of mind flayers as a sort of invasive species that's basically committed genocide on their own predecessors.
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"And that day, a red rain fell from the sky here."
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
If the mind flayers are the result of the reproduction cycle gone wrong, then, in general their would be far less of them created compared to the 99% not gone wrong procreation of neothlids.
Think about it this way: if mind flayers are their procreation messed up, and neothlid's are procreation gone normally, who do you think their's gonna be more of.
If you change the lore of mind flayers, you would have to change their history, and they would never have been the dominant species.The mind flayers would not have the numbers nor the strength (their less than twice as strong as a neothlid) to destroy the neothlid eggs before they hatched.
The problem is that the mind flayers are wiping out neothelids first chance they get according to the official lore. Technically, neothelids are more common, but the mind flayers are aborting them before they reach maturity. I'm thinking of mind flayers as a sort of invasive species that's basically committed genocide on their own predecessors.
The problem is, a neothlid is a lot stonger than a mind flayer (CR 13 to CR 7), in fact, one neathlid is more powerful than 2 mind flayers combined (using Xp value and multiplying for 2 monsters. The neothlids would guard their own eggs and easily stop any invasive mind flayers that came in.
You have more individual power and more numbers on the same side, you know who's gonna win.
Older lore has the Aboleth with perfect memory traceable through lineage and being unnerved by the presence of Mindflayers as they have no memory of the Illithids' arrival into what they claim is their domain (which is pretty much everything in their minds). Mindflayers weren't there and then they were.
The experiment or accident going awry and getting out of hand, creating the entire Illithid society, is a possibility, but it seems that the older editions don't want people to know how it all began with Mindflayers.
There are some stories that are improved by delving into the history of things, but there are many stories that are all but ruined by inventing a history that was formerly unexplained as what is told to us is nowhere near as awesome as the multitudes of possibilities we imagine.
Be careful of creating a history for something that might not be intended to be understood at all―an intentional uncertain quality of the thing.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
This actually sounds like a really cool idea! The stat block info for the neothelid does mention that it takes a while for them to grow to immense size... perhaps originally, neothelids were much smaller, and in their native environment were picked off by giant psionic birds or something before they could grow to such a size? In this case, a neothelid in an unfamiliar environment devoid of any of its natural predators would have a very easy time growing to the point where it's much, much larger than it normally would have a chance to get, leading it to be the CR 15 monster we know and fear today! It also gives us the chance to introduce, perhaps, "lesser neothelids" that haven't been able to live for as long as a standard 'thelid has, due to predation and whatnot. Whatever can actually eat a gods-damned neothelid is another can of psionic worms entirely, but I'm betting it's probably a bird.
I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
This actually sounds like a really cool idea! The stat block info for the neothelid does mention that it takes a while for them to grow to immense size... perhaps originally, neothelids were much smaller, and in their native environment were picked off by giant psionic birds or something before they could grow to such a size? In this case, a neothelid in an unfamiliar environment devoid of any of its natural predators would have a very easy time growing to the point where it's much, much larger than it normally would have a chance to get, leading it to be the CR 15 monster we know and fear today! It also gives us the chance to introduce, perhaps, "lesser neothelids" that haven't been able to live for as long as a standard 'thelid has, due to predation and whatnot. Whatever can actually eat a gods-damned neothelid is another can of psionic worms entirely, but I'm betting it's probably a bird.
I second this, without other predators the neaothlid quickly becomes the predator in charge.
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The lore of mindflayers is that they became so powerful that they ruled the entire universe, but then they did something stupid and committed mass extinction on themselves, so a small group of them went back in time to start over and do it correct this time. That's why aboleths, with their perfect memory since the dawn of existence, dont remember them. They just appeared and started enslaving things, because they already knew how to do that, and that it worked.
This is an incredibly cool idea. However I have to agree with MidnightPlat that it doesn’t really change anything. I’m awed by this concept but I’m sceptical that an average group of players will care that much. I don’t see how this makes a campaign fundamentally different from the usual mind flayer grinder. Despite this, I do have to tip my hat to you for coming up with such a cool concept.
I suppose you could also run a campaign that culminates in the creation of the first mind flayer, allowing the players to see this “freak accident”…
I think that due to the fact that mind flayers come to the far realm, ecology might be waaaaaay different. I also think that mind flayers may be similar to viruses, however over time they started needing to be inserted. In fact I do think that originally mind flayer tadpoles probably looked like neothelids, but we’re worm sized, that way they could actively hunt while still inserting themselves into a hosts brain.
Considering that neothelids don’t seem to reproduce, and the fact that they need to eat a whole pool of tadpoles means that they would be rare if not extinct.
Having neothlid as what are not produced and mind flayers as the things gone wrong would mean that most of the monsters are CR 15. This would stop you from having any encounters with more than 1 illithid. And also, they soon become un-scary if they are the
A couple of thoughts on this: 1) neothelids are basically failed ulitharids that eat the rest of the tadpoles. It may well be that in the far realm most tadpoles become ulitharids and then some became elder brains but in this universe it’s different reality generally corrupts that process. So elder brains tried infecting denizens of this realm ( including various humanoids) with the tadpoles to try to create a stable servitor race and came up with the illithids. Much of this research may have been done in the far realm so it’s quite possible for illithids to have simply appeared suddenly from the far realm as the aboleths ( do you really trust anything they say or tell?) say.
I have noticed some assumptions or ideas that got passed over. And it starts with the timeless riddle of, What came first the Chicken or the Egg. Let us break down the fantasy world with some reasonable logic. If I could combine 2 other mediums to describe the Mind Flayer it would be crossing The Strain, with the Borg of Star Trek.
From what I can tell something laid the first eggs that hatched into Illithid Tadpoles. One can assume it was either an Illithocyte or a Neothelid which are the 2 natrural forms that the Tadpoles can possibly turn into. These are rather mindless monsters who are motivated by base instincts. From all the lore reading I can't find any indication that these creatures lay eggs, but the eggs came from somewhere. Since mind flayers are sexless, it isn't a stretch to assume the natural forms are sexless as well. This could be the reason Aboleths never saw the origin of Mind Flayers because somewhere on the evolutionary ladder a Tadpole found it's way into the brain of an acceptable humanoid, then had a few years to adjust to it's new surroundings after ceremorphosis. By the time the first Aboleth came across an Illithid it might have been an established colony. Whether by nature, the work of some evil wizard, or the will of some god this is a great place to use (DM Creativity)
It seems that through experiment it is known that Humans, Elves, Githyanki, Githzerai, Grimlocks, Gnolls, Medium sized Goblinoids, and Orcs are the right size and biology for a tadpole to morph into an Illithid. When the ceremorphosis occurs I assume that the tadpole keeps it's intellect and grows more intelligent over time, and since these more intelligent creatures have more than just base needs, they gather into social groups. Now certain tadpoles are just outliers and they grow into Ulitharid who then can eventually turn into an Elder Brain which will manage a colony of Illithids. So basically an Elder Brain is likened to a Queen Bee, and the presence of a new Ulitharid is a sign that a new colony could split off eventually. But it is important to note, that when a Mind Flayer consumes a brain to keep it's own alive, it also takes possession of all knowledge that was in the consumed brain. This doesn't work the same in it's Illithocyte or a Neothelid form.
I find the mucus they produce on their skin to be quite interesting. According to lore, it not only keeps oxygen out of their skin, but the mucus is a conduit of their psychic powers. If you were to wash off a Mind Flayer it will greatly reduce their psychic abilities and can cut them off from the Astral Plane. Supposedly the mucus also is the source of their magic resistance. (DM Creativity with the mucus)
This does not include the lore of how Mind Flayers became the dominate ruling force in the Inner Planes and Outer Planes using their mastery of the Astral Plane. Then the enslaved Gith were able to successfully revolt and break the Mind Flayers dominance. The Gith were ruthless in their revenge, destroying utterly any Mind Flayer structure they could find. This purge caused the remaining Mind Flayers to flee and rebuild in the Underdark.
But in the end, there is real fear in the minds of Mind Flayer colonies of the eventuality of Neothelid being created. These mindless beasts can't be controlled, they can't be sensed telepathically. They are very destructive, and voracious. Not only are they a real threat to a Mind Flayer Colony, but if too many of these monstrosities are created, they have the real potential of decimating all life. And something just seems logical that either Illithocyte or a Neothelid can lay eggs, but it would seem more likely that the Illithocyte is the egg layer which is the center of all the species.
And for fun, Mind Flayers are notorious for experimenting, so for some fun look up these ceremorphisis creations. From a beholder to a Mind Witness. From a Chull to a Uchuulon. From a dragon to a Brain Stealer Dragon. From a Roper to a Urophion. Or from a Purple Worm to a Mind Worm. (Yes another opportunity for DM creativity with new cross breedings)
This is in my opinion the genius of D&D lore, that there are so many left open opportunities to inject your own creativity to tell the story the way you want to. Don't get bogged down by needing everything spelled out. The creators left these holes for a reason, so you the "Story Teller" can fill them in. Just keep it cohesive and don't ruin the existing continuity and nothing you add is wrong!!!
I don't love the neothelid lore; the AD&D2 Illithiad doesn't address the neothelid well, and it has just been accepted canon since. Like a lot of authors who draw inspiration from Lovecraft and his ilk, Bruce Cordell loves a good weird science mystery, but they are frankly terrible for official RPG lore. Dungeon masters need to have a complete understanding of how something works, then THEY can decide if they want it to be mysterious to their players.
That being said, the neothelid leaves me with the impression that the illithid is a species that was designed for purpose.
When a parasite fails to find a host, it dies; it does not mutate into a giant form of its larval stage. That's extremely counterintuitive. The neothelid transformation strongly suggests one of two things to me, as a geneticist: either someone wanted to encourage the mind flayers to find a host for every last tadpole and created a monster to ensure they did, or someone did a very sloppy job cleaning up the loose ends of illithid biology in the laboratory. It smacks of a cancerous, out-of-control development, rather than an intended outcome.
It's possible that the mind flayer is the result of an environmental interruption to the "natural" neothelid life cycle (specifically, being placed in a living brain), though it asks a lot of questions. It implies that the brain is actually a less desirable environment for the tadpole's development, forcing it down a very different developmental pathway. This means mind flayers aren't really parasites or symbionts at all, but a sort of... graft? And it makes the elder brain difficult to understand. If illithids are not meant to inhabit brains, why is the elder brain so powerful and why its its creation so sought after by illithid colonies?
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I think that the Neothelid was the original form, and something went wrong and created the illithids. And I’ve seen others say that then the neothelids would be more common, but from a natural selection standpoint, it makes sense that mind flayers are more widespread. They are smarter and more expansion-inclinated, and purge neothelids anyway.
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I was planning on incorporating a neothelid into one of my campaigns (Ravenloft group, if you read this, I am not referring to your game). When reading their lore, I had a thought. In VGtM, their description begins with the line: "A slime-covered worm of immense size, a neothelid is the result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong."
However, reading into it more, it seems like it should be the other way around. Rather than neothelids being a perversion of the mind flayer life cycle, mind flayers seem more like a perversion of the neothelid life cycle. The mind flayers are created when an illithid tadpole is planted inside a host body, resulting in their humanoid shape and enhanced intellect. Occasionally, a tadpole becomes an ulitharid instead, which can then become an elder brain. This means that the mind flayers we are familiar with only came to be after tadpoles were introduced to humanoid hosts.
Neothelids are the mature form of a tadpole that didn't get put in a humanoid host. The creation of new mind flayers was a process designed by mind flayer society. According to VGtM, the tadpoles have to be inserted, implying they can't/don't enter the human brain of their own ability or accord. If this is the case, then mind flayers as we know them are actually not supposed to happen. Perhaps thousands of years ago, some freak accident (or experiment) ended in a neothelid tadpole getting put in a humanoid's brain, resulting in the first illithid.
Does this theory check out? Or am I overlooking a detail that invalidates the idea?
"And that day, a red rain fell from the sky here."
I don't think this is a right or wrong question. It's a hook you could use; but I'm curious, where would you go with this fact? The notion that Mind Flayers were somehow "engineered" possibly as a bioweapon is an available possibility, so who were their precursors.
I'm not sure if it was in an edition or just fan theory, but I vaguely remember lore that suggests Mind Flayers were once humans and are sort of retreating back through space/time to flee from some other existential threat that led them to become mind flayers in the first place. I had notes to a sort of Dr. Who inspired campaign where it turned out most Mind Flayers were much like the Ood from that show, though that wouldn't fit into the ecology you're speculating.
"Where did the Mind Flayers come from?" was explored to no satisfaction I believe in at least a couple of AD&D and 2e adventures. Bruce Cordell's trilogy alongside the Illithiad stands out among them. Actually if you want to deep dive into Mind Flayer lore the Illithiad from 2e will give you a lot to chew on.
More pedestrian explanation: Illithid's a lawful evil civilization of sophisticated domination and oppression. Neolethids are chaotic accidents lacking the intelligence to contribute to the Illithid manifest destiny and possessed of a capacity for not insignificant disruption to an Illithid colony. Of course they'd be suppressed.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Having neothlid as what are not produced and mind flayers as the things gone wrong would mean that most of the monsters are CR 15. This would stop you from having any encounters with more than 1 illithid. And also, they soon become un-scary if they are the norm.
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HERE.I'm not sure how neothelids being the natural form of a mind flayer would make the former any more common, or the latter any rarer. Mind flayers put the tadpoles inside humanoids, forcing them to become illithids. If a tadpole starts to become a neothelid, the mind flayers kill it first chance they get. Therefore, the rarity of both species stays the same.
"And that day, a red rain fell from the sky here."
If the mind flayers are the result of the reproduction cycle gone wrong, then, in general their would be far less of them created compared to the 99% not gone wrong procreation of neothlids.
Think about it this way: if mind flayers are their procreation messed up, and neothlid's are procreation gone normally, who do you think their's gonna be more of.
If you change the lore of mind flayers, you would have to change their history, and they would never have been the dominant species.The mind flayers would not have the numbers nor the strength (their almost less than twice as strong as a neothlid) to destroy the neothlid eggs before they hatched.
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HERE.I dunno, if Mind Flayers were an accident or intervention into a "natural" species reproductive cycle, there's lots of examples in agriculture and bioengineering or simply not scraping a ship's hull leading to said accident or intervention becoming an invasive apex in a biome. May Illithids are the equivalent of Mayfly or bioengineered rice in the Far Realm, it's just in the Prime Material that they're monstrous horrors of great power. That's the cool thing about the Far Realm, it doesn't need to really make sense.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The problem is that the mind flayers are wiping out neothelids first chance they get according to the official lore. Technically, neothelids are more common, but the mind flayers are aborting them before they reach maturity. I'm thinking of mind flayers as a sort of invasive species that's basically committed genocide on their own predecessors.
"And that day, a red rain fell from the sky here."
The problem is, a neothlid is a lot stonger than a mind flayer (CR 13 to CR 7), in fact, one neathlid is more powerful than 2 mind flayers combined (using Xp value and multiplying for 2 monsters. The neothlids would guard their own eggs and easily stop any invasive mind flayers that came in.
You have more individual power and more numbers on the same side, you know who's gonna win.
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HERE.Older lore has the Aboleth with perfect memory traceable through lineage and being unnerved by the presence of Mindflayers as they have no memory of the Illithids' arrival into what they claim is their domain (which is pretty much everything in their minds). Mindflayers weren't there and then they were.
The experiment or accident going awry and getting out of hand, creating the entire Illithid society, is a possibility, but it seems that the older editions don't want people to know how it all began with Mindflayers.
There are some stories that are improved by delving into the history of things, but there are many stories that are all but ruined by inventing a history that was formerly unexplained as what is told to us is nowhere near as awesome as the multitudes of possibilities we imagine.
Be careful of creating a history for something that might not be intended to be understood at all―an intentional uncertain quality of the thing.
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This actually sounds like a really cool idea! The stat block info for the neothelid does mention that it takes a while for them to grow to immense size... perhaps originally, neothelids were much smaller, and in their native environment were picked off by giant psionic birds or something before they could grow to such a size? In this case, a neothelid in an unfamiliar environment devoid of any of its natural predators would have a very easy time growing to the point where it's much, much larger than it normally would have a chance to get, leading it to be the CR 15 monster we know and fear today! It also gives us the chance to introduce, perhaps, "lesser neothelids" that haven't been able to live for as long as a standard 'thelid has, due to predation and whatnot. Whatever can actually eat a gods-damned neothelid is another can of psionic worms entirely, but I'm betting it's probably a bird.
I second this, without other predators the neaothlid quickly becomes the predator in charge.
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HERE.The lore of mindflayers is that they became so powerful that they ruled the entire universe, but then they did something stupid and committed mass extinction on themselves, so a small group of them went back in time to start over and do it correct this time. That's why aboleths, with their perfect memory since the dawn of existence, dont remember them. They just appeared and started enslaving things, because they already knew how to do that, and that it worked.
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I think that due to the fact that mind flayers come to the far realm, ecology might be waaaaaay different. I also think that mind flayers may be similar to viruses, however over time they started needing to be inserted. In fact I do think that originally mind flayer tadpoles probably looked like neothelids, but we’re worm sized, that way they could actively hunt while still inserting themselves into a hosts brain.
Accidental post.
A couple of thoughts on this:
1) neothelids are basically failed ulitharids that eat the rest of the tadpoles. It may well be that in the far realm most tadpoles become ulitharids and then some became elder brains but in this universe it’s different reality generally corrupts that process. So elder brains tried infecting denizens of this realm ( including various humanoids) with the tadpoles to try to create a stable servitor race and came up with the illithids. Much of this research may have been done in the far realm so it’s quite possible for illithids to have simply appeared suddenly from the far realm as the aboleths ( do you really trust anything they say or tell?) say.
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I have noticed some assumptions or ideas that got passed over. And it starts with the timeless riddle of, What came first the Chicken or the Egg. Let us break down the fantasy world with some reasonable logic. If I could combine 2 other mediums to describe the Mind Flayer it would be crossing The Strain, with the Borg of Star Trek.
From what I can tell something laid the first eggs that hatched into Illithid Tadpoles. One can assume it was either an Illithocyte or a Neothelid which are the 2 natrural forms that the Tadpoles can possibly turn into. These are rather mindless monsters who are motivated by base instincts. From all the lore reading I can't find any indication that these creatures lay eggs, but the eggs came from somewhere. Since mind flayers are sexless, it isn't a stretch to assume the natural forms are sexless as well. This could be the reason Aboleths never saw the origin of Mind Flayers because somewhere on the evolutionary ladder a Tadpole found it's way into the brain of an acceptable humanoid, then had a few years to adjust to it's new surroundings after ceremorphosis. By the time the first Aboleth came across an Illithid it might have been an established colony. Whether by nature, the work of some evil wizard, or the will of some god this is a great place to use (DM Creativity)
It seems that through experiment it is known that Humans, Elves, Githyanki, Githzerai, Grimlocks, Gnolls, Medium sized Goblinoids, and Orcs are the right size and biology for a tadpole to morph into an Illithid. When the ceremorphosis occurs I assume that the tadpole keeps it's intellect and grows more intelligent over time, and since these more intelligent creatures have more than just base needs, they gather into social groups. Now certain tadpoles are just outliers and they grow into Ulitharid who then can eventually turn into an Elder Brain which will manage a colony of Illithids. So basically an Elder Brain is likened to a Queen Bee, and the presence of a new Ulitharid is a sign that a new colony could split off eventually. But it is important to note, that when a Mind Flayer consumes a brain to keep it's own alive, it also takes possession of all knowledge that was in the consumed brain. This doesn't work the same in it's Illithocyte or a Neothelid form.
I find the mucus they produce on their skin to be quite interesting. According to lore, it not only keeps oxygen out of their skin, but the mucus is a conduit of their psychic powers. If you were to wash off a Mind Flayer it will greatly reduce their psychic abilities and can cut them off from the Astral Plane. Supposedly the mucus also is the source of their magic resistance. (DM Creativity with the mucus)
This does not include the lore of how Mind Flayers became the dominate ruling force in the Inner Planes and Outer Planes using their mastery of the Astral Plane. Then the enslaved Gith were able to successfully revolt and break the Mind Flayers dominance. The Gith were ruthless in their revenge, destroying utterly any Mind Flayer structure they could find. This purge caused the remaining Mind Flayers to flee and rebuild in the Underdark.
But in the end, there is real fear in the minds of Mind Flayer colonies of the eventuality of Neothelid being created. These mindless beasts can't be controlled, they can't be sensed telepathically. They are very destructive, and voracious. Not only are they a real threat to a Mind Flayer Colony, but if too many of these monstrosities are created, they have the real potential of decimating all life. And something just seems logical that either Illithocyte or a Neothelid can lay eggs, but it would seem more likely that the Illithocyte is the egg layer which is the center of all the species.
And for fun, Mind Flayers are notorious for experimenting, so for some fun look up these ceremorphisis creations. From a beholder to a Mind Witness. From a Chull to a Uchuulon. From a dragon to a Brain Stealer Dragon. From a Roper to a Urophion. Or from a Purple Worm to a Mind Worm. (Yes another opportunity for DM creativity with new cross breedings)
This is in my opinion the genius of D&D lore, that there are so many left open opportunities to inject your own creativity to tell the story the way you want to. Don't get bogged down by needing everything spelled out. The creators left these holes for a reason, so you the "Story Teller" can fill them in. Just keep it cohesive and don't ruin the existing continuity and nothing you add is wrong!!!
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I don't love the neothelid lore; the AD&D2 Illithiad doesn't address the neothelid well, and it has just been accepted canon since. Like a lot of authors who draw inspiration from Lovecraft and his ilk, Bruce Cordell loves a good weird science mystery, but they are frankly terrible for official RPG lore. Dungeon masters need to have a complete understanding of how something works, then THEY can decide if they want it to be mysterious to their players.
That being said, the neothelid leaves me with the impression that the illithid is a species that was designed for purpose.
When a parasite fails to find a host, it dies; it does not mutate into a giant form of its larval stage. That's extremely counterintuitive. The neothelid transformation strongly suggests one of two things to me, as a geneticist: either someone wanted to encourage the mind flayers to find a host for every last tadpole and created a monster to ensure they did, or someone did a very sloppy job cleaning up the loose ends of illithid biology in the laboratory. It smacks of a cancerous, out-of-control development, rather than an intended outcome.
It's possible that the mind flayer is the result of an environmental interruption to the "natural" neothelid life cycle (specifically, being placed in a living brain), though it asks a lot of questions. It implies that the brain is actually a less desirable environment for the tadpole's development, forcing it down a very different developmental pathway. This means mind flayers aren't really parasites or symbionts at all, but a sort of... graft? And it makes the elder brain difficult to understand. If illithids are not meant to inhabit brains, why is the elder brain so powerful and why its its creation so sought after by illithid colonies?
J
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I think that the Neothelid was the original form, and something went wrong and created the illithids. And I’ve seen others say that then the neothelids would be more common, but from a natural selection standpoint, it makes sense that mind flayers are more widespread. They are smarter and more expansion-inclinated, and purge neothelids anyway.