I'm new to this planning my character thing. My situation is that my rogue (lvl 5) likes to explore things/dungeons/world a lot and do some climbing. I do not plan on touching my STR (10 currently) and be on the Dextrous side (18 DEX currently).
I am proficient in both Acrobatics and Athletics. Therefore, my Acrobatics is at +7 while my Athletics is at +3. Now while my DM is fine with wording/using Acrobatics for "most climbing" (if I jump from ledges or balance using a grapple hook), climbing in itself still is an Athletics related skill, at least with RAW.
So, as I'll be getting level 6 soon (tm), I'm looking at getting expertise in one of those two skills and taking the minimal 10 roll I will be getting with Reliable Talent into account, is there a "best" choice to make here between Balancing the skills by taking Expertise in Athletics, or Maxing Acrobatics with Expertise?
I know the maths were done in a similar topic (and not wanting to necro that topic), but Reliable Talent wasn't taken into account with the maths. So starting at level 11, with +4 Proficiency (and +5 DEX either at the ASI of level 8 or 10 with still +0 STR) I would get a MINIMUM of those on a skill check :
If Proficiency in Athletics: 10 + 0 + 4 = 14 minimum (reliable talent / d20 roll + ability mod + prof mod) If Expertise in Athletics: 10 + 0 + 8 = 18 minimum If Proficiency in Acrobatic: 10 + 5 + 4 = 19 minimum If Expertise in Acrobatics: 10 + 5 + 8 = 23 minimum
So, would there be an actual advantage to getting THAT much Acrobatics with Expertise there? I mean... are there even DC 23+ with Acrobatics?! :D Or would it be simply better to get Expertise in Athletics in my case to balance out my "flaws" in exploration and get at least a 18 on a 9 or less d20 roll?
Of course, I know it depends on the world, the settings, the way I RP... but I'd like your experience on that...
I would definitely boost Athletics. 18 will get you past almost everything, as will 19 for Acrobatics.
The usage of these two skills is a mess in this edition. I find it helps if you consider, broadly, Athletics to be for going up, and Acrobatics for coming down. It's not perfect, but it works.
As much as I love using expertise to just turn one skill into an instant-win, monster roll, for the most part it's unnecessary. A roll of 27 rarely has any greater impact than a roll of 17. The DM might let you do a corkscrew flip as part of a long jump or something, but other than just feeling cool for a few seconds it doesn't really make a difference.
In your case, with your character's focus on exploration and versatility in that regard, you really want better athletics than a 10 in STR will give you. Putting your expertise in acrobatics will make something you're already amazing at even better, but putting it in athletics will open up an entirely new avenue for you to take on challenges.
To be clear, I agree with everything posted here that, in your case, Athletics is probably your best option to grant Expertise to.
However, and this is just so you think about it if you haven't considered it yet, is that the only reason to consider Expertise in Acrobatics in your case IMO would be to resist opposing contests where an enemy is trying to use the Grapple or Shove actions on you where that higher number in Acrobatics is never a waste but it is very situational and its usefulness will vary based on the way your DM plays your combat encounters.
On the other hand, getting a higher Athletics check opens you up to using those same Grapple/Shove actions yourself. Sure, it is usually a subpar option since as a Rogue you only get one attack with your Attack action but it can be useful if you're trying to capture an enemy alive and gives you that possibility where that 14 minimum would be too risky to attempt it with.
Lots of good points and I thank you all for your valuable inputs!
@Kilthor raises an interesting angle that I haven't considered, being to better resist a grapple myself with an instant-win-monster-roll (haha, I liked that expression) in Acrobatics. You are right that it is still very situational and DM's style dependant and, as a ranged-type rogue, I will mostly never get in for a grapple (will very much try not to!), as that is not my style.
So with that in mind, I am more able to make up my mind and will take the Athletics Expertise. Climbing boulders in gym myself IRL, I can see a few cases of Acrobatics use (there is puzzle at my gym where you run up the wall on three stones, wall jump to reach high and then start climbing for that stone)... but really, and in 75-90% of the time, going up is mostly Athletics (and yes, jumping down and rolling is Acrobatics - so that rule does make sense in most scenario @ChoirOfFire - thanks for that quick rule). It will come down to how I explain my actions to get advantage or lower DC, or use tools (like spells or friends) to mitigate cases where DC might potentially be higher that what I can reliably pull off!
Greetings
I'm new to this planning my character thing. My situation is that my rogue (lvl 5) likes to explore things/dungeons/world a lot and do some climbing.
I do not plan on touching my STR (10 currently) and be on the Dextrous side (18 DEX currently).
I am proficient in both Acrobatics and Athletics.
Therefore, my Acrobatics is at +7 while my Athletics is at +3.
Now while my DM is fine with wording/using Acrobatics for "most climbing" (if I jump from ledges or balance using a grapple hook), climbing in itself still is an Athletics related skill, at least with RAW.
So, as I'll be getting level 6 soon (tm), I'm looking at getting expertise in one of those two skills and taking the minimal 10 roll I will be getting with Reliable Talent into account, is there a "best" choice to make here between Balancing the skills by taking Expertise in Athletics, or Maxing Acrobatics with Expertise?
I know the maths were done in a similar topic (and not wanting to necro that topic), but Reliable Talent wasn't taken into account with the maths.
So starting at level 11, with +4 Proficiency (and +5 DEX either at the ASI of level 8 or 10 with still +0 STR) I would get a MINIMUM of those on a skill check :
If Proficiency in Athletics: 10 + 0 + 4 = 14 minimum (reliable talent / d20 roll + ability mod + prof mod)
If Expertise in Athletics: 10 + 0 + 8 = 18 minimum
If Proficiency in Acrobatic: 10 + 5 + 4 = 19 minimum
If Expertise in Acrobatics: 10 + 5 + 8 = 23 minimum
So, would there be an actual advantage to getting THAT much Acrobatics with Expertise there? I mean... are there even DC 23+ with Acrobatics?! :D
Or would it be simply better to get Expertise in Athletics in my case to balance out my "flaws" in exploration and get at least a 18 on a 9 or less d20 roll?
Of course, I know it depends on the world, the settings, the way I RP... but I'd like your experience on that...
Thanks a lot for helping me out in that!
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
I would definitely boost Athletics. 18 will get you past almost everything, as will 19 for Acrobatics.
The usage of these two skills is a mess in this edition. I find it helps if you consider, broadly, Athletics to be for going up, and Acrobatics for coming down. It's not perfect, but it works.
As much as I love using expertise to just turn one skill into an instant-win, monster roll, for the most part it's unnecessary. A roll of 27 rarely has any greater impact than a roll of 17. The DM might let you do a corkscrew flip as part of a long jump or something, but other than just feeling cool for a few seconds it doesn't really make a difference.
In your case, with your character's focus on exploration and versatility in that regard, you really want better athletics than a 10 in STR will give you. Putting your expertise in acrobatics will make something you're already amazing at even better, but putting it in athletics will open up an entirely new avenue for you to take on challenges.
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To be clear, I agree with everything posted here that, in your case, Athletics is probably your best option to grant Expertise to.
However, and this is just so you think about it if you haven't considered it yet, is that the only reason to consider Expertise in Acrobatics in your case IMO would be to resist opposing contests where an enemy is trying to use the Grapple or Shove actions on you where that higher number in Acrobatics is never a waste but it is very situational and its usefulness will vary based on the way your DM plays your combat encounters.
On the other hand, getting a higher Athletics check opens you up to using those same Grapple/Shove actions yourself. Sure, it is usually a subpar option since as a Rogue you only get one attack with your Attack action but it can be useful if you're trying to capture an enemy alive and gives you that possibility where that 14 minimum would be too risky to attempt it with.
Lots of good points and I thank you all for your valuable inputs!
@Kilthor raises an interesting angle that I haven't considered, being to better resist a grapple myself with an instant-win-monster-roll (haha, I liked that expression) in Acrobatics. You are right that it is still very situational and DM's style dependant and, as a ranged-type rogue, I will mostly never get in for a grapple (will very much try not to!), as that is not my style.
So with that in mind, I am more able to make up my mind and will take the Athletics Expertise.
Climbing boulders in gym myself IRL, I can see a few cases of Acrobatics use (there is puzzle at my gym where you run up the wall on three stones, wall jump to reach high and then start climbing for that stone)... but really, and in 75-90% of the time, going up is mostly Athletics (and yes, jumping down and rolling is Acrobatics - so that rule does make sense in most scenario @ChoirOfFire - thanks for that quick rule).
It will come down to how I explain my actions to get advantage or lower DC, or use tools (like spells or friends) to mitigate cases where DC might potentially be higher that what I can reliably pull off!
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!