My current party just hit lvl 14 before we took a hiatus (damned virus...) and we're going to be starting up again soon. However, I want to make the battles a bit more challenging since my party roflstomped the last two BBEGs I put them up against.
The biggest problem is the dreaded 'Alpha Strike' on turn one of combat. Two of the characters are Fighters (one Tabaxi Fighter with SS, CBXPrt and Battlemaster to boot while the other is a Fighter-Cleric who dual-wields battle axes that do an extra 1D6 Fire damage per hit), one is a Druid (she seldom casts...always going full-on Windshape right away), and one Warlock (Hexblade with all the joy that Eldritch Blast can bring). On the first turn the Action Surges are flying and so are the spells. The party can put out close to 200 damage if they all get their wacks in (the Fighter/Cleric isn't so good at range) and the big bad guy tend to melt by the second turn or he's running for cover which removes him from the damage output side of the equation.
I don't want to cheese every battle by starting out with minions first and then boss after a few rounds, nor do I want to make the bosses big bags of HP with tons of Resistances. I'm looking for ways to make a battle challenging for more than one round for a Tier 3 party that has played together for a while and pretty much has their tactics down to a science.
Major opponents are also smart. They can, and should, use tactics against the party. Their first step is spying on the party to learn the party’s tactics and strategy.
Blade Ward makes a great spell to use with Contingency against the party that you described for example. They’ll still be doing their massive damage in the first round, but only half of it will “bite”.
Who says the “BBEG” has to be a tough opponent? He’s smart and he’s the ruler, but he might have 50-60 HP and vulnerability to bludgeoning damage for example. The fight against his minions can be the fight. Then after the party works through the minions the ruler may go down with one character’s attack leaving the rest standing there going, “That was it???” Of course in that scenario the minions would be a super tough fight.
Some opponents can have regeneration or “vampiric regeneration” where every time they do melee damage they heal themselves for half of the damage that they do.
You can have the evil mastermind hiding in a maze that’s full of traps. By the time the PCs get to him they’ll be down to half HP from the traps. So after one round of combat where they super nova the fight will be even because both the players and their opponent will be at half HP.
Tactics. (Use of range, terrain control spells, etc.)
Remember that, by this point, the characters are presumably famous heroes. Their exploits are talked about. ("I heard they killed Murgor the Mighty before he even finished drawing his sword!" "Well I heard that...") Their foes will prepare for their usual tactics.
Also, there's no shame in just making the enemies have more hit points. You can also steal an idea from CRPGs, and have multi-stage bosses, who get way more dangerous when they get down to half HP. (The Theros book does this in the form of Mythic monsters.) By blowing out their big round early, they now have to spend longer fighting the dangerous version, where if they'd waited, they could've spared themselves a lot of trouble. (And don't be predictable. If some bosses are multi-stage, and some aren't, they'll have to switch their tactics up.)
Remember, they players presumably want entertaining fights, not curb-stomps.
If the players know there’s only one, they are making the right choice to blow all their limited resources right away. If they don’t know how many fights there will be, they’ll need to be more cautious about what they use when. I’m not even talking about the mythical 6-8 per day. Even 2-3 per day can be enough to keep them honest so they need to keep some things in reserve.
Major opponents are also smart. They can, and should, use tactics against the party. Their first step is spying on the party to learn the party’s tactics and strategy.
Blade Ward makes a great spell to use with Contingency against the party that you described for example. They’ll still be doing their massive damage in the first round, but only half of it will “bite”.
Who says the “BBEG” has to be a tough opponent? He’s smart and he’s the ruler, but he might have 50-60 HP and vulnerability to bludgeoning damage for example. The fight against his minions can be the fight. Then after the party works through the minions the ruler may go down with one character’s attack leaving the rest standing there going, “That was it???” Of course in that scenario the minions would be a super tough fight.
Some opponents can have regeneration or “vampiric regeneration” where every time they do melee damage they heal themselves for half of the damage that they do.
You can have the evil mastermind hiding in a maze that’s full of traps. By the time the PCs get to him they’ll be down to half HP from the traps. So after one round of combat where they super nova the fight will be even because both the players and their opponent will be at half HP.
I have to say that the first time I used the Contingency spell and the boss teleported away the whole party, especially the Warlock player (he's the veteran of the party...been playing since 1st ed), I wish I would have had a picture of their faces!
Tactics. (Use of range, terrain control spells, etc.)
Remember that, by this point, the characters are presumably famous heroes. Their exploits are talked about. ("I heard they killed Murgor the Mighty before he even finished drawing his sword!" "Well I heard that...") Their foes will prepare for their usual tactics.
Also, there's no shame in just making the enemies have more hit points. You can also steal an idea from CRPGs, and have multi-stage bosses, who get way more dangerous when they get down to half HP. (The Theros book does this in the form of Mythic monsters.) By blowing out their big round early, they now have to spend longer fighting the dangerous version, where if they'd waited, they could've spared themselves a lot of trouble. (And don't be predictable. If some bosses are multi-stage, and some aren't, they'll have to switch their tactics up.)
Remember, they players presumably want entertaining fights, not curb-stomps.
Valid points all (which is why I'm here gleaning new ideas). And yes, the game we're all in now (the Warlock player is the DM), we have some EPIC fights. Our Barb went out FOUR times last battle. I would prefer to give my team the kind of battle they rave about later. Nobody talks about the 'we plowed them under' battles.
If the players know there’s only one, they are making the right choice to blow all their limited resources right away. If they don’t know how many fights there will be, they’ll need to be more cautious about what they use when. I’m not even talking about the mythical 6-8 per day. Even 2-3 per day can be enough to keep them honest so they need to keep some things in reserve.
Due to time constraints, I try to shoot for 1-2 light encounters and one real brawl per game day. Of course, when they spend ten minutes getting through a trapped door that tends to cut into fight time but they've gotten used to not having a battle every session, especially if they're in town before or after a mission.
One thing that I'm opposed to as a DM (because a DM used it on my friends and I way back when) is the idea of throwing out petty encounters just to wear down the PC's resources. Back when a 1st level Wizard had ONE spell per day, we'd all head for the 'dungeon', fight the first room or two worth of critters, then turn around and leave. What? Trying to struggle through combat with no resources sucks, especially for casters, and our DM at the time got a little tired of us clearing a room and then leaving to camp or go back to town. First, he tried refilling the rooms on the pretext that more critters were strolling by and found new empty digs. This didn't work though because we wound up farming them for xp and leveling up faster with less risk. Then he got heavy-handed and we'd find stone slabs coming down behind us as we progressed so we COULDN'T leave.
I want the battles to be challenging enough to be worth the effort but I don't want to have to soften the party up half a dozen times before each boss.
I don't want to cheese every battle by starting out with minions first and then boss after a few rounds, nor do I want to make the bosses big bags of HP with tons of Resistances. I'm looking for ways to make a battle challenging for more than one round for a Tier 3 party that has played together for a while and pretty much has their tactics down to a science.
Well, normal step 1 is "okay, this party beat down my encounter, so I'll boost the next encounter to be even harder". I would be using CR 20+ bosses against a level 14 party.
Layer actions, ledgendary actions, AoE damage/effects, and a possible surprise round can also help out. You can also think about environmental constraints such a collapsing floor, flooding room, building about to fall or something along those lines for additional pressure and/or time constraint that's random and not specifially a layer action. The bad guy could also prefer to escape and you make it more about a chase than combat.
If the players know there’s only one, they are making the right choice to blow all their limited resources right away. If they don’t know how many fights there will be, they’ll need to be more cautious about what they use when. I’m not even talking about the mythical 6-8 per day. Even 2-3 per day can be enough to keep them honest so they need to keep some things in reserve.
Due to time constraints, I try to shoot for 1-2 light encounters and one real brawl per game day. Of course, when they spend ten minutes getting through a trapped door that tends to cut into fight time but they've gotten used to not having a battle every session, especially if they're in town before or after a mission.
One thing that I'm opposed to as a DM (because a DM used it on my friends and I way back when) is the idea of throwing out petty encounters just to wear down the PC's resources. Back when a 1st level Wizard had ONE spell per day, we'd all head for the 'dungeon', fight the first room or two worth of critters, then turn around and leave. What? Trying to struggle through combat with no resources sucks, especially for casters, and our DM at the time got a little tired of us clearing a room and then leaving to camp or go back to town. First, he tried refilling the rooms on the pretext that more critters were strolling by and found new empty digs. This didn't work though because we wound up farming them for xp and leveling up faster with less risk. Then he got heavy-handed and we'd find stone slabs coming down behind us as we progressed so we COULDN'T leave.
I want the battles to be challenging enough to be worth the effort but I don't want to have to soften the party up half a dozen times before each boss.
I appreciate that, and also like the fights to mean something, but having 1/day is working against the system. Characters will steam roll that every time, if the players know that’s what’s going on. You don’t need to do it every time. You do it a few times, enough to make make them think it could happen at any time. Enough that they have to think about it. Just kept them honest.
I guess you could go from the other side, go with the grittier rules of a long rest takes a week. Then maybe there’s still 1/day, but you get in multiple fights per long rest. That’s what the game assumes.
You could look to something like the eidolon for inspiration -- a BBEG who has multiple 'bodies' (constructs or whatever) at the ready they can inhabit, maybe even with different abilities and resistances. If the party goes nova on the first round against the first body, the BBEG simply moves on to the next
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Legendary actions, at least 4, that refresh each round. Your team blitzes, and after every player's turn, the BBEG gets to to "a thing", some of which CAN easily swing a fight, and/or negate the blitz tactic.
Interference/inaccessible, the BBEG is behind 3/4 cover about 60 feet back while his 5 Hobgoblin minions rush to engage the party and protect the boss.
AoE and Debuffs that trigger when the party trip into the room the encounter is in. Anyone not wearing an attuned medallion is SLOW-ed, if they fail the save (at disadvantage)
The main group I play in normally consists of a Champion Fighter, Open Hand Monk, Berzerker Barbarian and a Grave Cleric. We are only level 13 and we can lay down an unholy amount of damage in a single round when we need to, so we have been finding swarms of middling difficulty enemies, and sometimes a handful of trash with true threats mixed in. The kind of enemies hat DO drop pretty fast under our focused fire, but who also deal a lot of damage while they're up. Sometimes our best tactics have been divide and destroy, other times it's been to drive like a spear point, a single point of destruction through the masses.
It's possible to give a powerful party memorable and exciting fights, sometimes by throwing a huge mass of lesser enemies, who are relatively soft, deal moderate damage and fall fast under strong damage. By having a lot of them, it gives the fights an epic feel with minimal risk to the party, AND can be a logical prelude to the main encounter. Enter a room and the door slams shut behind you. A dozen hardened swordsmen (and women) emerge from the shadows. BBEG says, from the far end of the big hall "Kill them, I have a sending to make" then disappears through a doorway. Painfully obvious tactic for burning their resources? Yup. Perfectly logical setup for a group of adventurers to find themselves in? Yup also.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The trick is not being predictable, that way you keep it fresh. Plenty of people have already suggested Legendary and Mythic abilities and I think those are great. I also think having a Lieutenant fight before the Big Bad is tried and true and not shameful to use, but if you need other tactics:
- Change the battlefield mid fight, Big Bad activates something and the floor drops out or the place floods with water or gets plunged into pitch darkness and sub zero temps - Trickery! What they thought was the Boss was a really convincing illusion and they wasted their nova on it - Lies! What they thought was the Boss was actually a mind controlled dupe - Duplicity! That same mind controlled dupe is actually the final sacrifice needed to finish the ritual and the PC's just completed the last step by killing them - Confusion! Powerful magical effect makes the PC's mistake each other for enemies and use their novas on each other, careful with this one, PC death is possible - Capitulation! The Boss outright surrenders. Is this part of a larger plan? What's going on?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If the players know there’s only one, they are making the right choice to blow all their limited resources right away. If they don’t know how many fights there will be, they’ll need to be more cautious about what they use when. I’m not even talking about the mythical 6-8 per day. Even 2-3 per day can be enough to keep them honest so they need to keep some things in reserve.
Due to time constraints, I try to shoot for 1-2 light encounters and one real brawl per game day. Of course, when they spend ten minutes getting through a trapped door that tends to cut into fight time but they've gotten used to not having a battle every session, especially if they're in town before or after a mission.
One thing that I'm opposed to as a DM (because a DM used it on my friends and I way back when) is the idea of throwing out petty encounters just to wear down the PC's resources. Back when a 1st level Wizard had ONE spell per day, we'd all head for the 'dungeon', fight the first room or two worth of critters, then turn around and leave. What? Trying to struggle through combat with no resources sucks, especially for casters, and our DM at the time got a little tired of us clearing a room and then leaving to camp or go back to town. First, he tried refilling the rooms on the pretext that more critters were strolling by and found new empty digs. This didn't work though because we wound up farming them for xp and leveling up faster with less risk. Then he got heavy-handed and we'd find stone slabs coming down behind us as we progressed so we COULDN'T leave.
I want the battles to be challenging enough to be worth the effort but I don't want to have to soften the party up half a dozen times before each boss.
You’re not playing the way DnD was designed. Even in 1e, the wizard had to be carried by the rest if he blew his slots in the first battle.
Your players are literally begging you to challenge them and the tools you have been given are the ones you refuse to use:
Minions.
Multi-stage battles.
Smaller-scale battles to get to the BBEG.
But then you go on to say how they have this down to a science? That have *your playstyle* down to a science, so do something different.
How about an illusionary first wave to absorb the Alpha Strike. Then the sound of slow clapping is heard as the real BBEG "applauds" their devastating first round of damage. Then he says, "Let's see what you do with these ..." and the party has to wonder if the second wave is an illusion as well.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
My current party just hit lvl 14 before we took a hiatus (damned virus...) and we're going to be starting up again soon. However, I want to make the battles a bit more challenging since my party roflstomped the last two BBEGs I put them up against.
The biggest problem is the dreaded 'Alpha Strike' on turn one of combat. Two of the characters are Fighters (one Tabaxi Fighter with SS, CBXPrt and Battlemaster to boot while the other is a Fighter-Cleric who dual-wields battle axes that do an extra 1D6 Fire damage per hit), one is a Druid (she seldom casts...always going full-on Windshape right away), and one Warlock (Hexblade with all the joy that Eldritch Blast can bring). On the first turn the Action Surges are flying and so are the spells. The party can put out close to 200 damage if they all get their wacks in (the Fighter/Cleric isn't so good at range) and the big bad guy tend to melt by the second turn or he's running for cover which removes him from the damage output side of the equation.
I don't want to cheese every battle by starting out with minions first and then boss after a few rounds, nor do I want to make the bosses big bags of HP with tons of Resistances. I'm looking for ways to make a battle challenging for more than one round for a Tier 3 party that has played together for a while and pretty much has their tactics down to a science.
Major opponents are also smart. They can, and should, use tactics against the party. Their first step is spying on the party to learn the party’s tactics and strategy.
Blade Ward makes a great spell to use with Contingency against the party that you described for example. They’ll still be doing their massive damage in the first round, but only half of it will “bite”.
Who says the “BBEG” has to be a tough opponent? He’s smart and he’s the ruler, but he might have 50-60 HP and vulnerability to bludgeoning damage for example. The fight against his minions can be the fight. Then after the party works through the minions the ruler may go down with one character’s attack leaving the rest standing there going, “That was it???” Of course in that scenario the minions would be a super tough fight.
Some opponents can have regeneration or “vampiric regeneration” where every time they do melee damage they heal themselves for half of the damage that they do.
You can have the evil mastermind hiding in a maze that’s full of traps. By the time the PCs get to him they’ll be down to half HP from the traps. So after one round of combat where they super nova the fight will be even because both the players and their opponent will be at half HP.
Professional computer geek
Multiple serious opponents.
Tactics. (Use of range, terrain control spells, etc.)
Remember that, by this point, the characters are presumably famous heroes. Their exploits are talked about. ("I heard they killed Murgor the Mighty before he even finished drawing his sword!" "Well I heard that...") Their foes will prepare for their usual tactics.
Also, there's no shame in just making the enemies have more hit points. You can also steal an idea from CRPGs, and have multi-stage bosses, who get way more dangerous when they get down to half HP. (The Theros book does this in the form of Mythic monsters.) By blowing out their big round early, they now have to spend longer fighting the dangerous version, where if they'd waited, they could've spared themselves a lot of trouble. (And don't be predictable. If some bosses are multi-stage, and some aren't, they'll have to switch their tactics up.)
Remember, they players presumably want entertaining fights, not curb-stomps.
How many encounters are you having per day?
If the players know there’s only one, they are making the right choice to blow all their limited resources right away.
If they don’t know how many fights there will be, they’ll need to be more cautious about what they use when. I’m not even talking about the mythical 6-8 per day. Even 2-3 per day can be enough to keep them honest so they need to keep some things in reserve.
I have to say that the first time I used the Contingency spell and the boss teleported away the whole party, especially the Warlock player (he's the veteran of the party...been playing since 1st ed), I wish I would have had a picture of their faces!
Valid points all (which is why I'm here gleaning new ideas). And yes, the game we're all in now (the Warlock player is the DM), we have some EPIC fights. Our Barb went out FOUR times last battle. I would prefer to give my team the kind of battle they rave about later. Nobody talks about the 'we plowed them under' battles.
Due to time constraints, I try to shoot for 1-2 light encounters and one real brawl per game day. Of course, when they spend ten minutes getting through a trapped door that tends to cut into fight time but they've gotten used to not having a battle every session, especially if they're in town before or after a mission.
One thing that I'm opposed to as a DM (because a DM used it on my friends and I way back when) is the idea of throwing out petty encounters just to wear down the PC's resources. Back when a 1st level Wizard had ONE spell per day, we'd all head for the 'dungeon', fight the first room or two worth of critters, then turn around and leave. What? Trying to struggle through combat with no resources sucks, especially for casters, and our DM at the time got a little tired of us clearing a room and then leaving to camp or go back to town. First, he tried refilling the rooms on the pretext that more critters were strolling by and found new empty digs. This didn't work though because we wound up farming them for xp and leveling up faster with less risk. Then he got heavy-handed and we'd find stone slabs coming down behind us as we progressed so we COULDN'T leave.
I want the battles to be challenging enough to be worth the effort but I don't want to have to soften the party up half a dozen times before each boss.
Well, normal step 1 is "okay, this party beat down my encounter, so I'll boost the next encounter to be even harder". I would be using CR 20+ bosses against a level 14 party.
Layer actions, ledgendary actions, AoE damage/effects, and a possible surprise round can also help out. You can also think about environmental constraints such a collapsing floor, flooding room, building about to fall or something along those lines for additional pressure and/or time constraint that's random and not specifially a layer action. The bad guy could also prefer to escape and you make it more about a chase than combat.
Develop the habit of having multiple encounters...
I appreciate that, and also like the fights to mean something, but having 1/day is working against the system. Characters will steam roll that every time, if the players know that’s what’s going on. You don’t need to do it every time. You do it a few times, enough to make make them think it could happen at any time. Enough that they have to think about it. Just kept them honest.
I guess you could go from the other side, go with the grittier rules of a long rest takes a week. Then maybe there’s still 1/day, but you get in multiple fights per long rest. That’s what the game assumes.
What that means is "25% of daily budget on each of the first two fights, 50% on the last". So 15,000, 15,000, and 30,000.
Thus, a typical light encounter is a CR 16, two CR 9s, or 4 CR 5-6. A real brawl is a CR 20-21, or two CR 13, or four CR 8s.
You could look to something like the eidolon for inspiration -- a BBEG who has multiple 'bodies' (constructs or whatever) at the ready they can inhabit, maybe even with different abilities and resistances. If the party goes nova on the first round against the first body, the BBEG simply moves on to the next
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Legendary actions, at least 4, that refresh each round. Your team blitzes, and after every player's turn, the BBEG gets to to "a thing", some of which CAN easily swing a fight, and/or negate the blitz tactic.
Interference/inaccessible, the BBEG is behind 3/4 cover about 60 feet back while his 5 Hobgoblin minions rush to engage the party and protect the boss.
AoE and Debuffs that trigger when the party trip into the room the encounter is in. Anyone not wearing an attuned medallion is SLOW-ed, if they fail the save (at disadvantage)
The main group I play in normally consists of a Champion Fighter, Open Hand Monk, Berzerker Barbarian and a Grave Cleric. We are only level 13 and we can lay down an unholy amount of damage in a single round when we need to, so we have been finding swarms of middling difficulty enemies, and sometimes a handful of trash with true threats mixed in. The kind of enemies hat DO drop pretty fast under our focused fire, but who also deal a lot of damage while they're up. Sometimes our best tactics have been divide and destroy, other times it's been to drive like a spear point, a single point of destruction through the masses.
It's possible to give a powerful party memorable and exciting fights, sometimes by throwing a huge mass of lesser enemies, who are relatively soft, deal moderate damage and fall fast under strong damage. By having a lot of them, it gives the fights an epic feel with minimal risk to the party, AND can be a logical prelude to the main encounter. Enter a room and the door slams shut behind you. A dozen hardened swordsmen (and women) emerge from the shadows. BBEG says, from the far end of the big hall "Kill them, I have a sending to make" then disappears through a doorway. Painfully obvious tactic for burning their resources? Yup. Perfectly logical setup for a group of adventurers to find themselves in? Yup also.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
It isn't cheese to send the minions first - why would the boss turn up before they've sent their lieutenants and other followers?
The trick is not being predictable, that way you keep it fresh. Plenty of people have already suggested Legendary and Mythic abilities and I think those are great. I also think having a Lieutenant fight before the Big Bad is tried and true and not shameful to use, but if you need other tactics:
- Change the battlefield mid fight, Big Bad activates something and the floor drops out or the place floods with water or gets plunged into pitch darkness and sub zero temps
- Trickery! What they thought was the Boss was a really convincing illusion and they wasted their nova on it
- Lies! What they thought was the Boss was actually a mind controlled dupe
- Duplicity! That same mind controlled dupe is actually the final sacrifice needed to finish the ritual and the PC's just completed the last step by killing them
- Confusion! Powerful magical effect makes the PC's mistake each other for enemies and use their novas on each other, careful with this one, PC death is possible
- Capitulation! The Boss outright surrenders. Is this part of a larger plan? What's going on?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You’re not playing the way DnD was designed. Even in 1e, the wizard had to be carried by the rest if he blew his slots in the first battle.
Your players are literally begging you to challenge them and the tools you have been given are the ones you refuse to use:
Minions.
Multi-stage battles.
Smaller-scale battles to get to the BBEG.
But then you go on to say how they have this down to a science? That have *your playstyle* down to a science, so do something different.
How about an illusionary first wave to absorb the Alpha Strike. Then the sound of slow clapping is heard as the real BBEG "applauds" their devastating first round of damage. Then he says, "Let's see what you do with these ..." and the party has to wonder if the second wave is an illusion as well.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Legendary actions, Mythic actions, up the CR (lots of wonderful homebrewed baddies here on DDB), and maybe used the Bloodied feature from 4E.
I do think increasing hit points is a must, as is multi-stage battles.
If they're fighting a red dragon, for instance, that dragon should have some fire giant allies, for instance.
The basic solutions to a 200 damage alpha strike are:
The problem is...I'm not sure the OP is willing to accept any of them.