* Campaign endgame said to be level 8 - was thinking lvl 3 rogue and lvl five Paladin for extra attack attack and second level spells.
AC 18
Str 9 - Dex 20 - Con 16 - Int 9 - Wisdom 13 - Chr 16
Equip - rapier (+1) or normal dagger and magic dagger (+1 and 1d6 when thrown with teleport/return bonus actions that also deal dmg on return) - studded leather
*Team comp: Druid (home brew I think), Barb totem warrior, life domain cleric/ranger, and artificer (battlesmith )
*Spells requiring save/charisma - Mod +3 spell DC 14: Command, Wrathful smite (or any of those variants), Faerie Fire, Bane, and heroism. Also Abjure Enemy
*Playstyle: I slightly try to lean into my low int and my particularly background (anti-aristocracy/punk vibes + assassin cult upbringing) for combat and some role play. Generally not super cautious when things pop off, but I do enjoy sneaking around and scouting when possible. Although being my first campaign, I’m still getting used to rp and out of combat play, whereas I feel pretty productive during combat.
Takeaway so far: dual wield feat and ASI probably not super worth it with lvl 8 being the end game. The chromatic dragon and shadow touched feats seem like a fun way to go about things.
Do you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style? Dual wielding is pretty bad without that Fighting Style, even as a Paladin who can potentially smite on each attack. I honestly wouldn't pick up Dual Wielder without first getting the Fighting Style as a foundation, so if you don't have it and you don't want to invest a second feat to pick up Fighting Initiate, I would go with Shadow Touched.
Wait, I'm sorry I just re-read this. You're currently dual-wielding a rapier and a dagger without the Dual Wielder feat? You should not be able to do that; a rapier isn't light. If your DM is already letting you use two-weapon fighting with non-light weapons, then I really wouldn't bother with Dual Wielder because all you're getting out of it is the +1 AC. There are much better uses of a feat than that.
Oh yeah just realizing that both have to be light not just the off hand. The DM and I talked about using it and they haven’t brought up the rapier + dagger as an issue, but I’ll adjust to have two daggers equipped.
Unless something changes, end game will be 3 rogue and 5 paladin, so will probably do as you said and not invest to heavily in dual wielding bonuses.
Would ASI into charisma be more worth than a feat like shadow touched?
It depends on allthe things you didn't want to put in the OP.
What are you using that relies on charisma? Divine sense is a ribbon so I wouldn't say it is worth investing in Charisma for that but are you castoing spells that use Charisma or using all your spell slots for smites (and maybe utility spells)? What Oath are you, that can make a big difference in how dependent you are on charisma.
Are you sure the campaign will finish at level 8? Aura of Protection is one of, if not the, most powerful class feature in the game. Increasing the bonus to saves for you and anyone else in the party within 10 feet of you is huge.
Are you doing much in the way of stealth scouting?
Do you want to priorotize effecivness or something that is fun to play with?
Who else is in the party, shadow touched is more useful if it is the only way the party can get invisibility
A couple of other ideas to consider
Gift of the Chromatic dragon gives you a bit of a boost to your damage output and gives you resistance to elemental damage when you need it (If my characters can get absorb elements I always have it prepared, invaluable against dragons and spellcasters).
Inspiring leader increases survivability for the whole party (though is virtually useless if their is a twilight cleric in the party)
The most important thing is to take a feat / ASI that you will enjoy playing with
Depends on the spells you use. If your endgame is Rogue 3/Paladin 5, you won't get Aura of Protection, which is the main reason Paladins like high Charisma. Outside that feature, your only real use for Charisma is that some of your spells scale with it; if you don't use spells that force saving throws or otherwise mention your spellcasting modifier, I wouldn't worry about raising your Charisma.
Shadow-Touched is pretty good if you like sneaking around; the Paladin doesn't otherwise get a lot of spells that support that play style. Bumping up your Wisdom to +2 will also be nice if you're not going to get Aura of Protection to buff your saving throws. From what you've told us so far, I would personally take Shadow-Touched, but there may be other circumstances that make another option better.
I concur with those above, +2 Cha is only worth it if you are going to get to 6-Paladin. And Dual Wielding is a waste of your time. Shadow Touched is a fantastic choice if you are the main infiltrator in the party, but a waste of time if you've got a Warlock with Mask of Many Faces or another caster with Invisibility. Gift of the Chromatic Dragon is very nice if you have a combat-oriented game, otherwise, Telepathic is another one worth considering for out-of-combat situations.
Why not go Rogue 4 and Paladin 4? That way you get 2 ASI's in the next two levels.
What archetype is your Rogue? If its arcane trickster then you need a free hand to cast. If its Assassin remember that poison is nerfed in 5e. And fully up to the dms approval. If you want a hand to hand fighter I would pick up duel wielder with rogue 4 and work everything else through Paladin.
But do not forget that ASI in rogue.
Dual Wielder, shadow touched and then extra attack with paladin 5.
Why not go Rogue 4 and Paladin 4? That way you get 2 ASI's in the next two levels.
What archetype is your Rogue? If its arcane trickster then you need a free hand to cast. If its Assassin remember that poison is nerfed in 5e. And fully up to the dms approval. If you want a hand to hand fighter I would pick up duel wielder with rogue 4 and work everything else through Paladin.
But do not forget that ASI in rogue.
Dual Wielder, shadow touched and then extra attack with paladin 5.
Paladin 5 gets
Extra attack
2 second level spell slots and an extra 1st level spell slot
Rogue 4 gets nothing except the ASI / Feat and I would say either one of the Paladin features is worth more than that. The OP said the campaign is ending at level 8 so 4 levels of rogue means no extra attack. Even if it does go further I would leave Rogue 4 until at least after Paladin 6 (depending on of Oath)
Thanks for replying and input 🙏 I updated the op if that changes anything.
I am the only person who can really do any kind of infiltration, although it is true to the point so much that it may be boring for the group to do anything that involved that course of action since I’m the only one who could do it “safely”
The OP did post (Command, Wrathful smite (or any of those variants), Faerie Fire, Bane, and heroism.) I am not sure where they got Fearie fire from but all of those are good spells (I am not a great fan of Bane but it does fit a vengence paladin). There are different ways of playing a Pally.
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New Player Question
Which feat should I get the next level up: Dual Wielder or Shadow Touch (+1 Wis with invisibility and disguise self)
*Game style: A little grittier and combat is dangerous. So far equal parts combat and rp.
* Edits for clarity - thanks for all the replies and follow ups, was worried and super long post wouldn’t get much engagement.
* 3 lvl Rogue Assassin — 3 lvl Paladin Oath of Vengence
* Campaign endgame said to be level 8 - was thinking lvl 3 rogue and lvl five Paladin for extra attack attack and second level spells.
AC 18
Str 9 - Dex 20 - Con 16 - Int 9 - Wisdom 13 - Chr 16
Equip - rapier (+1) or normal dagger and magic dagger (+1 and 1d6 when thrown with teleport/return bonus actions that also deal dmg on return) - studded leather
*Team comp: Druid (home brew I think), Barb totem warrior, life domain cleric/ranger, and artificer (battlesmith )
*Spells requiring save/charisma - Mod +3 spell DC 14: Command, Wrathful smite (or any of those variants), Faerie Fire, Bane, and heroism. Also Abjure Enemy
*Playstyle: I slightly try to lean into my low int and my particularly background (anti-aristocracy/punk vibes + assassin cult upbringing) for combat and some role play. Generally not super cautious when things pop off, but I do enjoy sneaking around and scouting when possible. Although being my first campaign, I’m still getting used to rp and out of combat play, whereas I feel pretty productive during combat.
Takeaway so far: dual wield feat and ASI probably not super worth it with lvl 8 being the end game. The chromatic dragon and shadow touched feats seem like a fun way to go about things.
Do you have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style? Dual wielding is pretty bad without that Fighting Style, even as a Paladin who can potentially smite on each attack. I honestly wouldn't pick up Dual Wielder without first getting the Fighting Style as a foundation, so if you don't have it and you don't want to invest a second feat to pick up Fighting Initiate, I would go with Shadow Touched.
Wait, I'm sorry I just re-read this. You're currently dual-wielding a rapier and a dagger without the Dual Wielder feat? You should not be able to do that; a rapier isn't light. If your DM is already letting you use two-weapon fighting with non-light weapons, then I really wouldn't bother with Dual Wielder because all you're getting out of it is the +1 AC. There are much better uses of a feat than that.
Oh yeah just realizing that both have to be light not just the off hand. The DM and I talked about using it and they haven’t brought up the rapier + dagger as an issue, but I’ll adjust to have two daggers equipped.
Unless something changes, end game will be 3 rogue and 5 paladin, so will probably do as you said and not invest to heavily in dual wielding bonuses.
Would ASI into charisma be more worth than a feat like shadow touched?
It depends on allthe things you didn't want to put in the OP.
A couple of other ideas to consider
The most important thing is to take a feat / ASI that you will enjoy playing with
Depends on the spells you use. If your endgame is Rogue 3/Paladin 5, you won't get Aura of Protection, which is the main reason Paladins like high Charisma. Outside that feature, your only real use for Charisma is that some of your spells scale with it; if you don't use spells that force saving throws or otherwise mention your spellcasting modifier, I wouldn't worry about raising your Charisma.
Shadow-Touched is pretty good if you like sneaking around; the Paladin doesn't otherwise get a lot of spells that support that play style. Bumping up your Wisdom to +2 will also be nice if you're not going to get Aura of Protection to buff your saving throws. From what you've told us so far, I would personally take Shadow-Touched, but there may be other circumstances that make another option better.
I concur with those above, +2 Cha is only worth it if you are going to get to 6-Paladin. And Dual Wielding is a waste of your time. Shadow Touched is a fantastic choice if you are the main infiltrator in the party, but a waste of time if you've got a Warlock with Mask of Many Faces or another caster with Invisibility. Gift of the Chromatic Dragon is very nice if you have a combat-oriented game, otherwise, Telepathic is another one worth considering for out-of-combat situations.
Why not go Rogue 4 and Paladin 4? That way you get 2 ASI's in the next two levels.
What archetype is your Rogue? If its arcane trickster then you need a free hand to cast. If its Assassin remember that poison is nerfed in 5e. And fully up to the dms approval. If you want a hand to hand fighter I would pick up duel wielder with rogue 4 and work everything else through Paladin.
But do not forget that ASI in rogue.
Dual Wielder, shadow touched and then extra attack with paladin 5.
Paladin 5 gets
Rogue 4 gets nothing except the ASI / Feat and I would say either one of the Paladin features is worth more than that. The OP said the campaign is ending at level 8 so 4 levels of rogue means no extra attack. Even if it does go further I would leave Rogue 4 until at least after Paladin 6 (depending on of Oath)
Thanks for the detailed replay!
I updated the OP to answer some of the more in-depth questions if that helps to provide any needed context, but everything you said makes sense to me.
Thanks for replying! I updated the op if that helps.
But spell mod if +3 and save DC is 14. Oath of vengeance is the subclass.
Thanks for replying and input 🙏 I updated the op if that changes anything.
I am the only person who can really do any kind of infiltration, although it is true to the point so much that it may be boring for the group to do anything that involved that course of action since I’m the only one who could do it “safely”
This was my thought process going into thinking of the build.
Oath of Vengeance? Then what spells are you casting that have a saving throw? or Attack roll? Aren't you just using Hunter's Mark and Divine Smite!
The OP did post (Command, Wrathful smite (or any of those variants), Faerie Fire, Bane, and heroism.) I am not sure where they got Fearie fire from but all of those are good spells (I am not a great fan of Bane but it does fit a vengence paladin). There are different ways of playing a Pally.