For some reason, killing the Tarrasque is one of the things people have on their bucket list. It's one of the ultimate monsters you have to kill, right? It was one of the most difficult things to kill, players would just run the other way instead of trying to fight such a mighty beast.
IMO, the 5E Tarrasque has been nerfed so hard, it isn't a challenge at all. The ONLY thing it has that bears mention is it's defense vs. magic and it's Swallow. Run away...run away! Oh wait...it has no ranged attacks.
Granted it has 676 hps, very daunting but just drags out the fight. Bring back the regeneration or it's just going to be a war of attrition. Without regen, any character with fly and a magical bow/crossbow kills it easily.
Let it pick up a boulder and use it as a ranged weapon, as per assorted giants.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 120/600 ft., one target. Hit: 62 (8d12+10) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 20 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
That's just the storm giant's rock attack with the dice doubled, the long range set to that of a longbow, the tarrasque's Strength score and proficiency bonus factored in, and the prone rider from the tarrasque's tail attack tacked on. Don't let it make more than two rock attacks per action or it'll have no reason to ever close to melee.
Even just letting it make ranged attacks with improvised weapons, but with the damage scaled to the size of objects it is using the way damage is scaled for larger weapon-using monsters (so it'd be 20 (4d4+10) damage) makes it clearly not a great idea to take the long approach (both in range, and because anything with that length of range is likely to take more time to wear down such a large HP total) - assuming, of course, there is a real campaign happening and more on the line than just "kill this city-wrecking monstrosity before it kills you in this vast and featureless combat arena".
Add some 2e abilities it had to make it a truly epic encounter.
(following from 2nd edition Monster Manual)
Combat: The tarrasque is a killing machine and when active (see below) eats everything for miles around, including all animals and vegetation. Normal attacks are with its two forelimb claws (1d12 points of damage each), a sweeping tail lash (2d12 points of damage), a savage bite (5d10 points of damage plus acts as a sword of sharpness, severing a limb on a natural attack roll of 18 or better), and two thrusting horn attacks (1d10 points of damage each).
Once every turn, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can rush forward at a movement rate of 15, making all horn attacks cause double damage and trampling anything underfoot for 4d10 points of crushing damage.
The mere sight of the tarrasque causes creatures with less than 3 levels or Hit Dice to be paralyzed with fright (no saving throw) until it is out of their vision. Creatures of 3 or more levels or Hit Dice flee in panic, although those of 7 or more levels or Hit Dice that manage to succeed with a saving throw vs. paralyzation are not affected (though they often still decide to run away).
The tarrasque’s carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective. Bolts and rays such as lightning bolts, cones of cold, and even magic missiles are useless against it. The reflection is such that 1 in 6 of these attacks actually bounces directly back at the caster (affecting him normally), while the rest bounce off harmlessly to the sides and into the air.
The tarrasque is also immune to all heat and fire, and it regenerates lost hit points at a rate of 1 hit point per round. Only enchanted weapons (+1 or better) have any hope of harming the tarrasque. The Tarrasque is totally immune to all psionics.
Add some 2e abilities it had to make it a truly epic encounter.
Combat: The tarrasque is a killing machine and when active (see below) eats everything for miles around, including all animals and vegetation. Normal attacks are with its two forelimb claws (1d12 points of damage each), a sweeping tail lash (2d12 points of damage), a savage bite (5d10 points of damage plus acts as a sword of sharpness, severing a limb on a natural attack roll of 18 or better), and two thrusting horn attacks (1d10 points of damage each).
Except for the sword of sharpness thing, it does more damage now than it did then.
Once every turn, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can rush forward at a movement rate of 15, making all horn attacks cause double damage and trampling anything underfoot for 4d10 points of crushing damage.
That's interesting; the 5e version has 40 feet of movement speed and no Charge trait of any sort.
The mere sight of the tarrasque causes creatures with less than 3 levels or Hit Dice to be paralyzed with fright (no saving throw) until it is out of their vision. Creatures of 3 or more levels or Hit Dice flee in panic, although those of 7 or more levels or Hit Dice that manage to succeed with a saving throw vs. paralyzation are not affected (though they often still decide to run away).
In 5e, that sort of thing is represented by the creature's Frightful Presence action, which it can normally use as part of its Multiattack.
The tarrasque’s carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective. Bolts and rays such as lightning bolts, cones of cold, and even magic missiles are useless against it. The reflection is such that 1 in 6 of these attacks actually bounces directly back at the caster (affecting him normally), while the rest bounce off harmlessly to the sides and into the air.
The tarrasque is also immune to all heat and fire, and it regenerates lost hit points at a rate of 1 hit point per round. Only enchanted weapons (+1 or better) have any hope of harming the tarrasque. The Tarrasque is totally immune to all psionics.
Immunity to fire damage and to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons, but no regeneration or immunity to psionics.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Giants throw range is 240 feet, including the spectacular abilities of the Stone Giant. Since the Tarrasque doesn't have hands, giving it a longer range than a Storm Giant would be rather excessive. Not to mention the idea of a creature with an Int of 3 using tools like that.
That's assuming a number of handy boulders are even nearby...
Giants throw range is 240 feet, including the spectacular abilities of the Stone Giant. Since the Tarrasque doesn't have hands, giving it a longer range than a Storm Giant would be rather excessive. Not to mention the idea of a creature with an Int of 3 using tools like that.
That's assuming a number of handy boulders are even nearby...
It's a Gargantuan, world-eating, CR 30 thing. I think not being excessive would be rather missing the point. And anyway, if it has less range than a longbow, the problem still isn't solved.
Also: if a Medium or Small creature picks up an appropriately sized rock and throws it, it has a range of 20/60 ft. If a Huge storm giant picks up a rock and throws it, it has a range of 60/240 ft. That implies that rock range scales with size. I think I will drop the short range to 120 feet, though, to keep the pattern of the long range increasing by a greater factor than the short range.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Since the Tarrasque doesn't have hands, giving it a longer range than a Storm Giant would be rather excessive.
Here are two reasons why that isn't necessarily the case:
1) Pretty much everyone on the planet can get an object flying further by means other than the typical hold-in-hand-and-throw method than they can by throwing it, such as the methods of hitting it with a baseball bat or hitting it with a golf club - which that Tarrasque's 'just-slap-the-crap-out-of-it in that general direction' approach is closer to representing, despite its clawed fore-limbs only being hand-like rather than actual hands.
2) None of the stuff we are talking about can exist as written if real-world physics fully applied, so any determination of what these fantasy creatures are capable of that is based on real-world physics is inherently flawed. Something else, such as what makes for an engaging and fun game-play experience, or even what sounds like a cool story, is a much more logical guide to use for such determinations.
Let it pick up a boulder and use it as a ranged weapon, as per assorted giants.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 120/600 ft., one target. Hit: 62 (8d12+10) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 20 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
That's just the storm giant's rock attack with the dice doubled, the long range set to that of a longbow, the tarrasque's Strength score and proficiency bonus factored in, and the prone rider from the tarrasque's tail attack tacked on. Don't let it make more than two rock attacks per action or it'll have no reason to ever close to melee.
A rock of that size should use a Dex save. A shield isn't going to help against that.
For reference, the closest entry in the DMG's "Improvising Damage" table is
10d10
Crushed by compacting walls, hit by whirling steel blades, wading through a lava stream
The next step up is
18d10
Being submerged in lava, being hit by a crashing flying fortress
Back on topic: The point of the Tarrasque isn't how tough it is to beat. It's practically a natural disaster. Sure, you can chip away at it from a distance until it eventually hits 0 HP, but how much of the city will be left by then? That's the real issue. Think along the lines of Godzilla or Pacific Rim.
Let it pick up a boulder and use it as a ranged weapon, as per assorted giants.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 120/600 ft., one target. Hit: 62 (8d12+10) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 20 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
That's just the storm giant's rock attack with the dice doubled, the long range set to that of a longbow, the tarrasque's Strength score and proficiency bonus factored in, and the prone rider from the tarrasque's tail attack tacked on. Don't let it make more than two rock attacks per action or it'll have no reason to ever close to melee.
A rock of that size should use a Dex save. A shield isn't going to help against that.
For a Medium or smaller creature, I am convinced. For a Huge or Gargantuan creature, I don't think so. For a Large creature, I could go either way, but I'm leaning toward the Dex save route. The templating's a bit awkward now, but I think I can do it.
Rock. The tarrasque throws a boulder at a creature or object within 600 feet of it. If the target is Large or smaller, it must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw. If the target is Huge or larger, the tarrasque makes a ranged weapon attack against it with a to-hit bonus of +19. If the target is more than 120 feet away, the tarrasque has disadvantage on the attack roll or the target has advantage on the saving throw. If the attack hits or the target fails its saving throw, the target takes 62 (8d12+10) bludgeoning damage and, if it is a creature, must succeed on a DC 20 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Eh...5e prefers simple rules that are good enough most of the time to complicated rules that try to catch all the corner cases. The DM's there for when the rules break down. Odds are the rock's going to be thrown at a medium or large PC.
Eh...5e prefers simple rules that are good enough most of the time to complicated rules that try to catch all the corner cases. The DM's there for when the rules break down. Odds are the rock's going to be thrown at a medium or large PC.
If you give a monster intelligence above it's rated Int, then give horribly broken attacks to the mob where no listing in the MM gives a hint of such abilities, sure.....the Tarrasque rules.
Eh...5e prefers simple rules that are good enough most of the time to complicated rules that try to catch all the corner cases. The DM's there for when the rules break down. Odds are the rock's going to be thrown at a medium or large PC.
If you give a monster intelligence above it's rated Int,
How much Int does it take to throw a rock at the pesky archer flying around out of your reach and pinging you with annoying pinpricks?
then give horribly broken attacks
Horribly broken? The tarrasque's Multiattack does over twice as much damage as that rock. 2.3870967741935483870967741935 times as much, to be precise. The only thing I'm giving the tarrasque is the ability to defend itself against a flying enemy with a magical ranged attack that doesn't deal fire or poison damage, like an aarakocra ranger with a longbow +1.
to the mob where no listing in the DMG gives a hint of such abilities, sure.....the Tarrasque rules.
First off, monsters are in the Monster Manual, not the Dungeon Master's Guide. Second, are you saying that monsters (that is to say, things with stat blocks) can only do things mentioned in their MM entries?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
One of the reasons the Tarrasque has such a huge +to hit is because it's so strong. For a ranged attack you'd want it based off Dex, which should drop the attack down to +9.
You also proposed allowing 2 rock attacks per turn (124 or 16d12 + 20...not counting what a crit would do), which will mean any and all people/objects it wants to destroy will be flattened LONG before it gets to melee range; particularly against a building since it has Siege Monster. Hopefully there's a suitable field of boulders laying around. Are you going to treat the boulders as ammunition? Otherwise it still only gets one free object interaction a turn. Note: even Stone Giants (masters of throwing rocks) only get one throw per turn. Since a Storm Giant has a strength of 29 vs. The Tarrasque's 30 Strength, scaling up the damage beyond 4d12 is excessive. AaronofBarbaria suggested 4d4 + 10 which seems a bit low IMO.
I'm assuming you're going to allow the Tarrasque to move it's Speed every turn as well as using all three Legendary Actions to move another 60': 100' per turn. Easily able to stay at max range of all but the fastest creatures/players.
Lastly, regarding knocking a player prone from a rock: the Tarrasque already has 2 attacks that require a saving throw & those DCs are @ 20.
Thrown weapons are by default, strength based. Ranged attacks are by no means exclusive to dex. In fact, if you take into account racial cantrips, there are ranged attacks for each of the 6 abilities. Giants use their strength to throw rocks, so why would it be different here?
A weapon with the thrown property follows the general rules for ranged weapon attacks (use your dexterity) unless it's a melee weapon; in that case it uses the same ability you'd use to make a melee attack with it. So the only time throwing something is strength-based by default is when it's a melee weapon and it lacks the finesse property.
Ranged attacks are by no means exclusive to dex. In fact, if you take into account racial cantrips, there are ranged attacks for each of the 6 abilities.
Of course, but weapon attacks and spell attacks have different rules. Ranged weapon attacks are dexterity-based.
Giants use their strength to throw rocks, so why would it be different here?
On the one hand a rock isn't a weapon and doesn't have the thrown property so you'd follow the general rule for ranged weapon attacks.
On the other hand monster stat blocks can use any number they want for their attack rolls so a giant can use any of their ability modifiers or even just have a made-up number that's not related to any of them.
No, they aren't. So, very wrong. To damage, yes....to hit, no. You can get your bonus to damage from Strength, but to hit is Dex based. "If a weapon has the thrown property (again, this is totally something the DM is making up as per house rules) you throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon (no Tarrasque would use a boulder in melee, it isn't a melee weapon at all), you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. Since the boulder is an improvised weapon attack, normal rules apply and you'd use Dex to hit.
Page 277 of the DMG, " When a monster has an action that require an attack roll its attack bonus is equal to it proficiency bonus + its Strength or Dexterity modifier. A monster usually applies its Strength modifier to Melee attacks its Dexterity modifier to ranged attacks. "
There's a difference between a giant throwing a rock and the Tarrasque using an improvised weapon to make a ranged attack. One has skill in the item, the other is an animal using an improvised weapon.
If you want to say the Tarrasque is using some other stat to make a Cantrip attack when it somehow throws a rock, feel free. It's Dex is 11, Int is 3, Wis is 11 and Cha is 11. If it isn't Strength based (to hit) then what other stat would use use..Con? "OMG, the Tarrasque was so healthy, it hit me easily!"
In short, if you DID want to give the Tarrasque an improvised range weapon attack...it'd use Dex. It should use the Improvised Weapon Rules and the range shouldn't be anywhere near what a "tool" like the Longbow gets. Using the Stone/Storm Giant range would be generous to say the least.
No, they aren't. So, very wrong. To damage, yes....to hit, no.
Not that it matters, since monster stat blocks can do whatever they want with very few exceptions, but there's no precedent for attacks that use one ability for the attack roll and a different ability for the damage roll.
In short, if you DID want to give the Tarrasque an improvised range weapon attack...it'd use Dex. It should use the Improvised Weapon Rules and the range shouldn't be anywhere near what a "tool" like the Longbow gets. Using the Stone/Storm Giant range would be generous to say the least.
It's a bit silly to insist a 50-foot-tall, 70-foot-long monster that can carry 3600 pounds can't throw a rock further than 60 feet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like, yes, I know that's what the improvised weapon rules say, but the DM is allowed to improvise when the rules don't make sense.
So using the Storm Giant range & damage for a ranged attack should be a good guideline, since they have nearly the same Strength. Granted one is a monster with high intelligence and hands and the other is a mob with animal intelligence and claws....
Let's just let the DM give a Tarrasque a huge chance to hit based on how strong it is, even though Strength isn't used for ranged attacks, deal broken damage with multiple attacks a round and have an unreasonable save DC to make a flyer prone...because then they'll fall and take even more ridiculous damage.
Based on....absolutely nothing in the MM or DMG, but just "Uh....they COULD throw a rock" and the DM making up an attack that isn't listed in the MM.
I'm sure the high level party that gets obliterated before even closing to melee range will have a fun time with the encounter.
For some reason, killing the Tarrasque is one of the things people have on their bucket list. It's one of the ultimate monsters you have to kill, right? It was one of the most difficult things to kill, players would just run the other way instead of trying to fight such a mighty beast.
IMO, the 5E Tarrasque has been nerfed so hard, it isn't a challenge at all. The ONLY thing it has that bears mention is it's defense vs. magic and it's Swallow. Run away...run away! Oh wait...it has no ranged attacks.
Granted it has 676 hps, very daunting but just drags out the fight. Bring back the regeneration or it's just going to be a war of attrition. Without regen, any character with fly and a magical bow/crossbow kills it easily.
Let it pick up a boulder and use it as a ranged weapon, as per assorted giants.
That's just the storm giant's rock attack with the dice doubled, the long range set to that of a longbow, the tarrasque's Strength score and proficiency bonus factored in, and the prone rider from the tarrasque's tail attack tacked on. Don't let it make more than two rock attacks per action or it'll have no reason to ever close to melee.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Even just letting it make ranged attacks with improvised weapons, but with the damage scaled to the size of objects it is using the way damage is scaled for larger weapon-using monsters (so it'd be 20 (4d4+10) damage) makes it clearly not a great idea to take the long approach (both in range, and because anything with that length of range is likely to take more time to wear down such a large HP total) - assuming, of course, there is a real campaign happening and more on the line than just "kill this city-wrecking monstrosity before it kills you in this vast and featureless combat arena".
Add some 2e abilities it had to make it a truly epic encounter.
(following from 2nd edition Monster Manual)
Combat: The tarrasque is a killing machine and when active (see below) eats everything for miles around, including all animals and vegetation. Normal attacks are with its two forelimb claws (1d12 points of damage each), a sweeping tail lash (2d12 points of damage), a savage bite (5d10 points of damage plus acts as a sword of sharpness, severing a limb on a natural attack roll of 18 or better), and two thrusting horn attacks (1d10 points of damage each).
Once every turn, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can rush forward at a movement rate of 15, making all horn attacks cause double damage and trampling anything underfoot for 4d10 points of crushing damage.
The mere sight of the tarrasque causes creatures with less than 3 levels or Hit Dice to be paralyzed with fright (no saving throw) until it is out of their vision. Creatures of 3 or more levels or Hit Dice flee in panic, although those of 7 or more levels or Hit Dice that manage to succeed with a saving throw vs. paralyzation are not affected (though they often still decide to run away).
The tarrasque’s carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective. Bolts and rays such as lightning bolts, cones of cold, and even magic missiles are useless against it. The reflection is such that 1 in 6 of these attacks actually bounces directly back at the caster (affecting him normally), while the rest bounce off harmlessly to the sides and into the air.
The tarrasque is also immune to all heat and fire, and it regenerates lost hit points at a rate of 1 hit point per round. Only enchanted weapons (+1 or better) have any hope of harming the tarrasque. The Tarrasque is totally immune to all psionics.
Except for the sword of sharpness thing, it does more damage now than it did then.
That's interesting; the 5e version has 40 feet of movement speed and no Charge trait of any sort.
In 5e, that sort of thing is represented by the creature's Frightful Presence action, which it can normally use as part of its Multiattack.
Now applies to magic missile, line spells (lightning bolt, but not cone of cold), and spells that require attack rolls.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Matthias,
Giants throw range is 240 feet, including the spectacular abilities of the Stone Giant. Since the Tarrasque doesn't have hands, giving it a longer range than a Storm Giant would be rather excessive. Not to mention the idea of a creature with an Int of 3 using tools like that.
That's assuming a number of handy boulders are even nearby...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Back on topic: The point of the Tarrasque isn't how tough it is to beat. It's practically a natural disaster. Sure, you can chip away at it from a distance until it eventually hits 0 HP, but how much of the city will be left by then? That's the real issue. Think along the lines of Godzilla or Pacific Rim.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Eh...5e prefers simple rules that are good enough most of the time to complicated rules that try to catch all the corner cases. The DM's there for when the rules break down. Odds are the rock's going to be thrown at a medium or large PC.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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One of the reasons the Tarrasque has such a huge +to hit is because it's so strong. For a ranged attack you'd want it based off Dex, which should drop the attack down to +9.
You also proposed allowing 2 rock attacks per turn (124 or 16d12 + 20...not counting what a crit would do), which will mean any and all people/objects it wants to destroy will be flattened LONG before it gets to melee range; particularly against a building since it has Siege Monster. Hopefully there's a suitable field of boulders laying around. Are you going to treat the boulders as ammunition? Otherwise it still only gets one free object interaction a turn. Note: even Stone Giants (masters of throwing rocks) only get one throw per turn. Since a Storm Giant has a strength of 29 vs. The Tarrasque's 30 Strength, scaling up the damage beyond 4d12 is excessive. AaronofBarbaria suggested 4d4 + 10 which seems a bit low IMO.
I'm assuming you're going to allow the Tarrasque to move it's Speed every turn as well as using all three Legendary Actions to move another 60': 100' per turn. Easily able to stay at max range of all but the fastest creatures/players.
Lastly, regarding knocking a player prone from a rock: the Tarrasque already has 2 attacks that require a saving throw & those DCs are @ 20.
Thrown weapons are by default, strength based. Ranged attacks are by no means exclusive to dex. In fact, if you take into account racial cantrips, there are ranged attacks for each of the 6 abilities. Giants use their strength to throw rocks, so why would it be different here?
A weapon with the thrown property follows the general rules for ranged weapon attacks (use your dexterity) unless it's a melee weapon; in that case it uses the same ability you'd use to make a melee attack with it. So the only time throwing something is strength-based by default is when it's a melee weapon and it lacks the finesse property.
Of course, but weapon attacks and spell attacks have different rules. Ranged weapon attacks are dexterity-based.
On the one hand a rock isn't a weapon and doesn't have the thrown property so you'd follow the general rule for ranged weapon attacks.
On the other hand monster stat blocks can use any number they want for their attack rolls so a giant can use any of their ability modifiers or even just have a made-up number that's not related to any of them.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
In short, if you DID want to give the Tarrasque an improvised range weapon attack...it'd use Dex. It should use the Improvised Weapon Rules and the range shouldn't be anywhere near what a "tool" like the Longbow gets. Using the Stone/Storm Giant range would be generous to say the least.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
So using the Storm Giant range & damage for a ranged attack should be a good guideline, since they have nearly the same Strength. Granted one is a monster with high intelligence and hands and the other is a mob with animal intelligence and claws....
Let's just let the DM give a Tarrasque a huge chance to hit based on how strong it is, even though Strength isn't used for ranged attacks, deal broken damage with multiple attacks a round and have an unreasonable save DC to make a flyer prone...because then they'll fall and take even more ridiculous damage.
Based on....absolutely nothing in the MM or DMG, but just "Uh....they COULD throw a rock" and the DM making up an attack that isn't listed in the MM.
I'm sure the high level party that gets obliterated before even closing to melee range will have a fun time with the encounter.