Hi everyone! I’m new to the forum and kind of new to DnD so just tell me if I get it wrong.
I’ve done a lot of research on topics of a similar nature and I know it comes up a bit, so I’m fairly familiar with the arguments but here goes.
So we know silent image can cast a visual phenomena of a certain size, some people argue it cannot move, others say it can so let’s not get into that. What has been up for debate is trying to create an illusion that blocks sight in some way; it creates a debate because of the line “physical interaction reveals the object to be an illusion”. I have seen someone say that this only applies to objects that CAN or SHOULD be physical. So what of the metaphysical? For example if you cannot touch the ethereal, then surely you wouldn't expect to be able to, and therefore the illusion is maintained. The problem is many say fog and smoke can technically be felt, so it creates a divide on whether or not the illusion meets the spells caveats.
Ultimately, stripping away the wording which is ambiguous and all the rules; logically speaking, what should an illusion magician be able to do? Personally, I would argue in favour that if an illusion of a ghost passes through you, the illusion would be maintained, as an illusion is purely about breaking the boundaries of the sensory mind. If it makes sense, then the illusion should be maintained; this is why at later spells, they add abilities that create multi-sensory effects; as these provide a context under which the illusion is maintained, like cold, or pain.
So I pose an illusion to you:
Silent image a darkness elemental emerging from the ground, one of it’s innate spell-castings is darkness, and from within the elemental, darkness emerges surrounding the relevant radius of the silent image spell. Darkness is not something tangible, it is not something physical with which you can interact. Magical darkness is also unaffected by types of light. If you imagine from the outside a dome of black surrounding the target, but from the targets perspective it is surrounded by black.
Passing through this darkness would be expected, also it is not something physical - this removes all the issues faced by summoning a fog or thick smoke. Nothing to smell, feel or watch move. It is none the less a visual phenomena, otherwise the elementals themselves would not be able to cast it. Thus it could be the type of silent image that would always require an action to investigate.
In my mind, if any part of the darkness WAS something to meet the caveat of physical interaction, it would be a thin black veil that forms the dome right around the outside of the illusion’s range.
I’m curious to hear what people think of this as a potential end of the debate of silent image creating an unsustainable fog because ‘interacted with’. My main issue is always “well what’s the point of an illusion of something that breaks at the slightest influence” - I just feel it would make illusions completely redundant.
Just read the details of Silent Image, so I will weigh in:
1- it is clear from the description that you can both have the image move, and have it change (animate)
2- given the size of area it affects (a cube 15 feet on a side), you could certainly do what you describe
3- unless it is written anywhere within the DMG, MM, or PHB that magical darkness can be felt, you would be correct that it is not readily apparent that it is an illusion
All told, I think you found a working solution to the use of the Silent Image spell.
I’m not keen on letting a lower level spell duplicate a higher level spell’s effect. At the same time, this is pretty clever so I would encourage it the first time, but I would stop players from using it over and over and instead suggest they use the darkness spell for this purpose in the long term.
Since you can cast it up to 60 feet up, and it can project an image 15 feet wide and tall (and facing multiple directions), if the permanent spell effect applies to it (cast a spell once per day for a year to make it permanent), you could use it to make a billboard, perhaps only casting the spell again after that to change or dispell it.
This a cool application of Silent Image. And it makes good sense.
I think you just demonstrated how Darkness is actually a redundant spell, at least for any caster with illusion in their repertoire. Not only that, but 2nd level for Darkness expending concentration now seems utterly laughable. They should have allowed it to be cast for no concentration whatsoever.
I’m not keen on letting a lower level spell duplicate a higher level spell’s effect. At the same time, this is pretty clever so I would encourage it the first time, but I would stop players from using it over and over and instead suggest they use the darkness spell for this purpose in the long term.
‘The reason I was trying to find a work around is because I wanted to find a simple way of making a combo with shadow blade that could apply outside of darker environments - the big difference is that as the caster, you would be able to see fine, but they could not - which when using darkness, the caster cannot see, which creates a problem. What I’ve realised however is that both require concentration anyway ahaha so all the logic was redundant, but none the less can be used to help team mates, or if a party member used it, I could still combo with shadow blade.
Honestly, I can see why you would be unsure of duplicating a higher level spell, but what I think you should try to remember is that illusion spells are few and far between of any use, and quite frankly, it’s a heavily underpowered school. It’s extremely frustrating that so many of Illusion spells require concentration and aren’t even that powerful. I mean 3rd level evocations of which there are 5 or up are commonly doing 4d10, whereas illusion has one spell (Phantasmal Killer) is 4th level and is the first decent illusion spell that does damage. Not to mention the illusion school skills used aren’t that great until much later on - I feel like DND highly prescribes to overly-conventional wizardry which is rather restrictive. As a dungeon master, I’m highly inclined to home brew rules regarding illusion spells and other kinds that encourage creativity and useful application, to make up for the difficulty in combat. I mean shadow blade is 2d8, needs concentration and only lasts a minute at 2nd level, chromatic orb lets you choose the element and does 3d8 damage from 90 feet range? I mean it’s just so unbalanced.
Even just in terms of discovering a spell scroll and wanting to copy it into your book; there are so many more evocation spells, so basically the amount of money spent on copying spells is more than double the potential if you choose school of Illusion. And that is at its ENTRY level power.
I’ve found other inconsistencies which annoy me; like Mirror Image doesn’t require concentration - why is that any less complicated than silent image or shadow blade? It confirms for me that in that case, when you cast the illusion, it is made in their mind. Why silent image isn’t the same, and even more so, darkness, I don’t understand? It breaks the principle that spells that require upkeep use concentration.
Whoa, there. Hold up a moment with the "utterly laughable" verdict :)
Darkness also has the function of dispelling any light spells of level 2 or lower that it touches. Obviously, the illusory darkness created by silent imagewould not do this.
I'm still troubled by the line from silent image that says "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." I understand what you were saying earlier since walking through illusory darkness would feel no different than walking through actual magical darkness, but if you take that line at face value, it means that once a creature enters any space where that illusion exists, then it is revealed to be an illusion. You could still cast it on yourself and see out from it while others outside could not see in, but that would be true for any kind of illusion you use the spell to create and not specific to faux darkness. I would say that silent image is intended to be a more versatile version of minor illusion and its abilities fill that role properly for a 1st level spell.
But since this is the tips and tactics forum and not the rules and game mechanics forum, maybe don't sweat the details and go with what's fun for everyone.
This is often the part that troubles EVERYONE. But by that logic, for me, that would imply that all ethereal beings in the DnD world would be considered illusions. And yet that is not the case... for me it means if you can touch it, the illusion breaks. But you can’t touch what isn’t there. It’s kind of subjective to interpretation and the spell still has many limits.
In terms of your interpretation, if the DM of your table were to be on the restrictive side, you could create the same effect by creating a dome of paper coated in vantablack (this is what I meant by a veil) - for all intensive purposes, it would look similar to the elemental casting darkness, whilst also reducing the amount of ‘physical’ that can be interacted with from side of the target - he would have to travel to the edge of the dome to discover it, but you could use your action to have it move wherever he does.
The two interpretations is why I draw attention to stripping back the rules and just considering what an illusion IS at its core; it’s something in the sensory perception of others that appears as real as it can be - the things that break illusions are anything that severs what makes it appear real. However, if darkness is expected to be passed through, then I don’t believe the illusion should break.
the only thing that makes it better than minor illusion is that the visual phenomena doesn’t have to by static, and it’s larger.
I think illusionists should actually have a chance to do SOMETHING useful with their spells, if they are creative enough to imagine it. I prefer to reward that creativity, rather than spend the game saying “this spell can’t do that” when in that spell’s case, it is entirely subjective.
@SinopaHolo I mostly agree w/ you about the illusion school being underpowered. It can be very powerful, though, in the hands of a creative player. Even moreso when you have some with the Performance skill or a Kenku in the party. Also, yes, DMs who nerf illusions are boring people. I try to stay away from DMs like that.
Okay, I just looked up the spell Continuous Flame. It lasts FOREVER until dispelled. The Light cantrip goes for 1 full hour without concentration. How in the world does Darkness ONLY last 10 minutes even with concentration? This seems weirdly incongruous from a world-building perspective AND underpowered for a 2nd level spell slot.
@TexasDevin It's not a useless spell by any means. It's just that there's no reason for it to have So Many limitations at a 2nd level spell slot. Also, your point about S.Image. The opponent would have to disbelieve the darkness to even question it. In a world where magical darkness exists, there's no reason for most people to do so.
I feel your pain on the concentration limitations. It’s just a bit silly really - at the end of the day, consider the science of it (even if none is involved)
minor illusion cannot create light because light isn’t static. And yet everything you see is light that has been absorbed and reflected. So the notion that you cannot create the illusion of a light source is debateable - I understand that an illusion should not technically be able to shed light on other things, however.
in the case of creating literal darkness; it is as real to generate a space that absorbs light, as it is to create a space that emits it. So it is ‘utterly laughable’ to have the darkness spell at second level, be as restricted as it is. As a DM, I would homebrew a spell that is more consistent to other spells and allow its use as the player desires.
To pretend that DND isn’t inconsistent, would be delusional...
If there are any spells that encourage creativity on the part of the caster, they would be illusion spells :) That's why I originally said that regardless of the technicalities of whether it works, I would be inclined to go with it at least the first time or two.
@TexasDevin It's not a useless spell by any means. It's just that there's no reason for it to have So Many limitations at a 2nd level spell slot. Also, your point about S.Image. The opponent would have to disbelieve the darkness to even question it. In a world where magical darkness exists, there's no reason for most people to do so.
Even firing an arrow into the silent image from distance would satisfy the requirement of physical interaction and reveal the darkness as an illusion. A creature with a passive investigation score higher than the DC of the spell, might notice something was strange and be prompted to use their action to make a check, thereby revealing the illusion as well. I don't feel like silent image is overly limited for what it is. It's demonstrably more versatile than minor illusion and incrementally less powerful than phantasmal force and major image.
@TexasDevin But unless you're some kind of warlock with sentient bows AND arrows, that arrow will not be able to "touch" the darkness created by the illusion. The part in the PHB about interaction is from a sensory perspective. IOW, if I make an illusion (say Disguise Self) that I have horns but I'm really a balding human with a toupee and someone shoots an arrow to hit my horn, and sees the arrow going through my horn, THAT dispels the illusion to any observers. Likewise if someone tries to touch my horn, their hand would go through. Obvious illusion. But most people's arrows have no sensory organs or machines attached to them. Since darkness isn't something you can touch or hear or smell, there's still no reason not to keep believing the illusion. Faith and superstition played a much bigger role in the medieval world than in the modern industrial world, remember? In a world where magic actually happens fairly frequently, no reason not to think that an illusion of darkness is any different from the Darkness spell.
Also you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Silent Image is overly limited. I'm saying that the Darkness spell is overly limited in comparison to the Light cantrip, to Silent Image AND to Continual Flame. It costs a 2nd level slot for a 10 min concentration effect that only does ONE thing. Continual Flame lasts FOREVAHHHH or until dispelled? LOL! what???
Illusion spells have a lot of wiggle room that can either make them overpowed or underpowered depending on what the DM allows. The general rule is that no illusion spell can do what an equal or higher level spell can do. So your interpretation of the spell's description should be based on that.
Silent Image says it creates an image that is revealed to be an illusion by physical interaction (with anything). So maybe the best way to describe that written rule would be that the image flickers where something passed through it like a hologram.
I'm saying that the Darkness spell is overly limited in comparison to the Light cantrip, to Silent Image AND to Continual Flame. It costs a 2nd level slot for a 10 min concentration effect that only does ONE thing. Continual Flame lasts FOREVAHHHH or until dispelled? LOL! what???
The "one" thing darkness does is rendering combat virtually impossible for those in a given area with no save. That is very much worth a 2nd level slot. Light creating spells on the other hand only serve to replace common equipment that everyone starts with anyway. And continual flame has a material cost to warrant its permanence (and it can still be dispelled by darkness or dispel magic which throws away that money).
Trying to use quote feature this way is annoying so these are in response (and quoting) SinopaHolo:
"It’s extremely frustrating that so many of Illusion spells require concentration and aren’t even that powerful. I mean 3rd level evocations of which there are 5 or up are commonly doing 4d10"
You're rating things in terms of damage. Illusion is not about damage, and while it has some combat control applications it's not geared for combat in general. Evocation is geared to damage, hence more damaging spells and conjuration and enchantment are your batte-controllers. Illusion spells overally work best out of combat.
Illusions can turn family against family, start nation-wide wars, eradicate sanity, take over a kingdom or can bring joy and happiness to people, communicate things more effectively, help resolve people's fears, and so much more. It's an incredibly powerful school of magic. It just requires you think beyond combat. It's not designed for combat, it shines elsewhere. It is best utilised with time and knowledge. Don't blame the spells for you not knowing how to use them properly.
So yeah, there will be few combat spells and lower damage because it's not a combat-focused school of magic.
"whereas illusion has one spell (Phantasmal Killer) is 4th level and is the first decent illusion spell that does damage."
You specifically say this is all so you can exploit Shadow Blade but now claim it's not decent? Eh?! Shadow Blade, a 2nd level illusion spell, does very tidy damage considering it can be combined with weapon-cantrips like Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, can be combined with sneak attack and extra attack features. For the base illusionist a melee blade spell is not helpful, but in a multiclass or spellcasting subclass of a martial class like Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) it can be brutal. Arcane Trickster can cast Shadow Blade and draw a shortsword and from then on deal 2d8+1d6 every turn with greater chance of advantage for easy sneak attack plus higher crit rate, does a less resisted damage type, and there's always the option of upcasting or combining ith weapon cantrips. Eldritch Knight with extra attack can be brutal, too, of course especially with Action Surge. A Level 20 EK using upcasted Shadow Blade can deal 16d8 over 4 attacks, double with Action Surge. And if you're in dim light or darkness you have advantage so you can hit more (and potentially crit more). Now imagine another spellcaster in the group using a Hold Person or Hold Monster on the enemy to give you automatic crit on all attacks - sorry, remind us again how this isn't a decent illusion spell?!
And Phantasmal Force isn't the biggest damage dealer with it's 1d6 but that is potentially an automatic 1d6 every turn - no saves, and with the right illusion can keep a target locked out of battle as well. They have to have reason to inspect your illusion as an illusion, and given most enemies don't have high int and lack proficiency in investigation are more likely to fail to identify the illusion as one. And the rulings on "multiple skill checks" apply: unless there is a good reason the creature is not going to be making an investigation check every turn, which takes an action to do, anyway. I do consider locking an opponent down and giving them 1d6 damage every round for free to be very decent.
"I mean shadow blade is 2d8, needs concentration and only lasts a minute at 2nd level, chromatic orb lets you choose the element and does 3d8 damage from 90 feet range? I mean it’s just so unbalanced."
Shadow Blade requires concentration to keep the game balanced so you cannot instantly destroy any enemy by single-handedly paralysing them to give yourself autocrit on a weapon that deals more damage than any other weapon. Even cast at base level, you have a potential of 20d8 over the 1 minute duration for a single casting which is a lot more than the one-use 3d8 of Chromatic Orb. And that's only if you don't get extra attacks or use weapon-cantrips. And as mentioned, it auto-includes a way to get advantage to every attack that is very achievable.
Shadow Blade builds can get monstrous. The concentration is important for the balance. Again, don't blame the spell for your lack of understanding of its potential.
"Even just in terms of discovering a spell scroll and wanting to copy it into your book; there are so many more evocation spells, so basically the amount of money spent on copying spells is more than double the potential if you choose school of Illusion. And that is at its ENTRY level power."
There are more evocation spells because it is a combat-oriented school and the different spells provide more options for dealing with different enemies. It is also a more comprehensive list of spells in combat terms because evocation isn't just damage but also healing: healing spells like Cure Wounds are Evocation, too. And, it provides more variety: the spells as written are quite static. Illusion spells however are geared for out of combat and have variety built in: you have far more ways to use Silent Image than you do a Fireball, more ways to use Phantasmal Force than you do a Healing Word. You don't have more of them because you don't need any: the illusion spell list gives you enough to do more than the evocation spell list many times over. If you think outside of "combat", that is.
"I’ve found other inconsistencies which annoy me; like Mirror Image doesn’t require concentration - why is that any less complicated than silent image or shadow blade? It confirms for me that in that case, when you cast the illusion, it is made in their mind. Why silent image isn’t the same, and even more so, darkness, I don’t understand? It breaks the principle that spells that require upkeep use concentration."
Concentration isn't about upkeep. It's about balance. Mirror Image is a very useful defensive spell, but it is quite limited, the effectiveness fades in later levels with enemies having multiple attacks. It's usefulness is largely in part because of the lack of concentration. Blur, another illusory defense spell of the same level, is more effective as the effect is more persistent and is better at keeping you safe but requires concentration, to balance. It's also so enemies have a way to end the spell early. When designers made up concentration rules for spells they were not thinking about the rp side of things: they needed a balance mechanic so you cannot stack the super-synergy-combo spells for instant-win-every-situation victories. Without this concentration mechanic, you could single-handedly take out a tarrasque with ease by like 5th level. It may not always fit in a narrative way, but concentration is very important.
"I think illusionists should actually have a chance to do SOMETHING useful with their spells, if they are creative enough to imagine it. I prefer to reward that creativity, rather than spend the game saying “this spell can’t do that” when in that spell’s case, it is entirely subjective."
Yeah but the problem is the things illusionists can do is super-amazeballs-*******-awesome outside of combat but because the one area it's less effective in, combat, is what you focus on you are the one imposing limits.
There is a spell for creating darkness at 2nd level and it has this level for a reason because of the many ways it can be useful either directly or indirectly by synergising with other effects and features. By letting people use it with Silent Image you are: giving them access to a spell 2 levels sooner than the game was balanced for, you're giving them a level 1 darkness that could block some of a 9th level daylight spell by effect making it far superior to the actual darkness spell, you are completely negating features like Devil's Sight and if anyone in your group now or a future person who joins ever wants to use a Shadow Sorc they're probably not gonna like that the wizard with level 1 silent image is somehow a lot more effective at shadow than they are. By going by "knowing" of the illusion being what lets you see through it, then you and your party are all able to hide in the darkness imposing disadvantage to all attacks against you, you are unable to be targeted by any spells that require sight to see (which is most of them) and you all have advantage on your attacks against the enemy. All for a 1st level spell that at 18th level you could get to cast at-will without spell slots.
Given how that is extremely overpowered and unbalanced I'd say: NUH UH. But it would be balanced to create the effect of darkness but anyone passing through realises it is an illusion. If you want a narrative in-game way of 'splaining this perhaps this: the spell's magic is like an energy, this energy fills the space of the illusion and creates a signal: anything that would become aware of the energy/space has senses manipulated to see/hear/smell/whatever that illusion you specified. If a creature identifies the illusion to be such they resist some of that signal so it appears translucent or hollow to them. Passing through the space means direct interaction with the spell's energy which is enough to also make them aware of the illusion being an illusion. This made-up explanation is fitting with the description of the illusion school and why some require saves and others do not: saves are for when the illusion is cast into a target mind directly: the spell energy isn't in a space but rather into the creature's brain whereas area illusions like silent image are in an area and simply send out a sort of "signal" to affect the senses.
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I'm going to reiterate again you are seriously missing the point and potential of illusions. Especially for a 14th level Illusionist Wizard with their Illusory Reality feature - holy shizfluff, the things you can do with that are insane.
Your issue is not the rules, friend, it's your lack of creativity and understanding, I am sorry to say.
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I agree with a lot of the things you say, and you seem like more of a veteran at this than me. Like I said, new.
i like your arguments about the versatility of the illusions and their use outside of battle. But I would personally maintain that I still think there’s a balance issue. Spells that require concentration should often give more bang for their buck, and having not known about booming blade (don’t know what book that’s in, but couldn’t find it in xanthar or phb), I’m inclined to understand where shadowblade can be more effective. But personally, I wanted it to be effective for me - I wasn’t doubting that rogues or Asamar’s could potentially do heaps of damage with it - I was talking about it in reference to the school of Illusion, as a Wizard. It was also a very minor part of what I was trying to say.
As for restricting silent image as per your description of it, that’s totally up to you - I don’t see illusions that way, not in any conventional sense. And I don’t agree that it’s mimicking darkness - because it isn’t - it’s creating an illusion of it. Anyone prompted to investigate further, would see through the illusion. It’s not actual darkness where the spell follows whatever it was cast on on its own, and it can[t be investigated to remove its effect. I don’t think it’s a balancing issue when it requires concentration just to accomplish the task, and like I said, more bang for your buck. Why should illusions be limited to the illusion of a higher level spell? That makes no sense? It’s no different than making illusory money and saying that mimics the creation spell. It’s not creating actual darkness, just something that looks like it.
I’m also not sure I agree about mirror image vs blurr - if a creature does 3 attacks against blurr, it has to roll twice on each attack. if it attacks 3 times against mirror image, it has to roll against you at least 3 times, BUT it effectively has disadvantage on the first 2, so that’s 5, and then they still may not hit your mirror image as they each have an armour class - so it has the potential to hold up for longer. The same goes for AoE really, all the spell says is when you’re targeted for an attack - so it still maintains the same level of disadvantage...
overall - I see what you’re getting at with shadowblade, but it’s really only useful when paired with other things, not that great as a stand-alone spell - and it’s not like you can’t pair up your evocation spells with things as well - so when you’re comparing combos, it’s not like it doesn’t stand up equally to others, but standalone, it’s a poor spell. In terms of silent image darkness - I just disagree inherently with how you see illusion spells. And there’s nothing in the wording of the spell that says I can’t do it this way - like i’ve said before, entirely subjective. Which is far more progress than was being made when people debate about creating fog or smoke. Subjective at least means you have a decent chance of arguing your case and ultimately, agree to disagree is the best result anyone will get with that, no one can flat out say no, because that makes them the kind of person who thinks they’re always right, even when it’s clearly up to opinion. As with ACTUAL darkness, I think it’s a defensive spell and I don’t think it should require concentration. It’s not like you couldn’t use the continual flame to dazzle opponents - why don’t you try holding a bright light up to your eyes and try and attack someone ahahaha flash grenades are a thing for a reason.
I am in agreement that illusions can be quite powerful. They can ALSO be extremely weak. This is in part b/c of game balance issues, yes, but also b/c some DMs do not like creative illusion users having such a versatile tool. I think part of the frustration on the part of people who like to get devious with illusions is that so much of what we have the potential to do is limited by DM fiat. Therefore the in-game-experience, rules knowledge, prejudices and general mood of a particular DM at a particular time all factor into how enjoyable illusion spells are to use for the player.
RE: physical interaction to disbelieve an illusion and @DxJxC's point about arrows causing an obvious "this is an illusion" effect. Physical interaction can mean a lot of different things. Your reading of the spell is a subjective one. A) There is nothing in the spell description that describes the shimmer effect you mentioned. B) The idea that an arrow fired from 280 feet away at an illusion of darkness is enough to reveal its illusory nature substantially weakens illusion magic in general. Anybody with an average INT score and a longbow/crossbow becomes capable at nullifying a large portion of illusion utility. If all DMs rule that way, many uses of Major Image are functionally crippled by most NPCs with a longbow. "Is that owlbear real? Fire an arrow at it." "Is that barrel real? Fire an arrow at it." It is precisely this type of parsimmonious attitude about illusions that makes people NOT want to specialize in illusions in most games. Illusionist Wizards before level 14 would be nerfed by this. Craptastic!! Thank you for demonstrating @SinopaHolo's point.
@Trirhabda I like that. Though it would assume the mage casting the illusion has a way to talk to the GCube. "So I need you to not move while some nosy people are approaching you. Yes, I told you to eat people who come down this corridor unless it's me, but for this to work, I need you to just stay still for a few minutes." Meanwhile the party rogue just around the corner, hears the conversation and realizes that something isn't right.
I would argue that if you’re in it, you touched it and reveal its nature because that’s what it says in the spell description. I get the “you can’t feel darkness” but that’s not RAW. I’d do the same for a fog like use too. I would allow it to block LOS as long as the intended blocked LOS target isn’t touching it.
I would argue that if you’re in it, you touched it and reveal its nature because that’s what it says in the spell description. I get the “you can’t feel darkness” but that’s not RAW. I’d do the same for a fog like use too. I would allow it to block LOS as long as the intended blocked LOS target isn’t touching it.
I have stuck myself in an illusion (which means I can see through it) and used that to attack unseen from range. The illusion is only revealed to the person who reveals the illusion. That’s the way I’ve played it anyway. You probably won’t get a ton of mileage out of it, but maybe a shot or two with advantage while the enemy figures out where you are.
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Hi everyone! I’m new to the forum and kind of new to DnD so just tell me if I get it wrong.
I’ve done a lot of research on topics of a similar nature and I know it comes up a bit, so I’m fairly familiar with the arguments but here goes.
So we know silent image can cast a visual phenomena of a certain size, some people argue it cannot move, others say it can so let’s not get into that. What has been up for debate is trying to create an illusion that blocks sight in some way; it creates a debate because of the line “physical interaction reveals the object to be an illusion”. I have seen someone say that this only applies to objects that CAN or SHOULD be physical. So what of the metaphysical? For example if you cannot touch the ethereal, then surely you wouldn't expect to be able to, and therefore the illusion is maintained. The problem is many say fog and smoke can technically be felt, so it creates a divide on whether or not the illusion meets the spells caveats.
Ultimately, stripping away the wording which is ambiguous and all the rules; logically speaking, what should an illusion magician be able to do? Personally, I would argue in favour that if an illusion of a ghost passes through you, the illusion would be maintained, as an illusion is purely about breaking the boundaries of the sensory mind. If it makes sense, then the illusion should be maintained; this is why at later spells, they add abilities that create multi-sensory effects; as these provide a context under which the illusion is maintained, like cold, or pain.
So I pose an illusion to you:
Silent image a darkness elemental emerging from the ground, one of it’s innate spell-castings is darkness, and from within the elemental, darkness emerges surrounding the relevant radius of the silent image spell. Darkness is not something tangible, it is not something physical with which you can interact. Magical darkness is also unaffected by types of light. If you imagine from the outside a dome of black surrounding the target, but from the targets perspective it is surrounded by black.
Passing through this darkness would be expected, also it is not something physical - this removes all the issues faced by summoning a fog or thick smoke. Nothing to smell, feel or watch move. It is none the less a visual phenomena, otherwise the elementals themselves would not be able to cast it. Thus it could be the type of silent image that would always require an action to investigate.
In my mind, if any part of the darkness WAS something to meet the caveat of physical interaction, it would be a thin black veil that forms the dome right around the outside of the illusion’s range.
I’m curious to hear what people think of this as a potential end of the debate of silent image creating an unsustainable fog because ‘interacted with’. My main issue is always “well what’s the point of an illusion of something that breaks at the slightest influence” - I just feel it would make illusions completely redundant.
Just read the details of Silent Image, so I will weigh in:
1- it is clear from the description that you can both have the image move, and have it change (animate)
2- given the size of area it affects (a cube 15 feet on a side), you could certainly do what you describe
3- unless it is written anywhere within the DMG, MM, or PHB that magical darkness can be felt, you would be correct that it is not readily apparent that it is an illusion
All told, I think you found a working solution to the use of the Silent Image spell.
I’m not keen on letting a lower level spell duplicate a higher level spell’s effect. At the same time, this is pretty clever so I would encourage it the first time, but I would stop players from using it over and over and instead suggest they use the darkness spell for this purpose in the long term.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Fun option I didnt realize till now:
Since you can cast it up to 60 feet up, and it can project an image 15 feet wide and tall (and facing multiple directions), if the permanent spell effect applies to it (cast a spell once per day for a year to make it permanent), you could use it to make a billboard, perhaps only casting the spell again after that to change or dispell it.
This a cool application of Silent Image. And it makes good sense.
I think you just demonstrated how Darkness is actually a redundant spell, at least for any caster with illusion in their repertoire. Not only that, but 2nd level for Darkness expending concentration now seems utterly laughable. They should have allowed it to be cast for no concentration whatsoever.
‘The reason I was trying to find a work around is because I wanted to find a simple way of making a combo with shadow blade that could apply outside of darker environments - the big difference is that as the caster, you would be able to see fine, but they could not - which when using darkness, the caster cannot see, which creates a problem. What I’ve realised however is that both require concentration anyway ahaha so all the logic was redundant, but none the less can be used to help team mates, or if a party member used it, I could still combo with shadow blade.
Honestly, I can see why you would be unsure of duplicating a higher level spell, but what I think you should try to remember is that illusion spells are few and far between of any use, and quite frankly, it’s a heavily underpowered school. It’s extremely frustrating that so many of Illusion spells require concentration and aren’t even that powerful. I mean 3rd level evocations of which there are 5 or up are commonly doing 4d10, whereas illusion has one spell (Phantasmal Killer) is 4th level and is the first decent illusion spell that does damage. Not to mention the illusion school skills used aren’t that great until much later on - I feel like DND highly prescribes to overly-conventional wizardry which is rather restrictive. As a dungeon master, I’m highly inclined to home brew rules regarding illusion spells and other kinds that encourage creativity and useful application, to make up for the difficulty in combat. I mean shadow blade is 2d8, needs concentration and only lasts a minute at 2nd level, chromatic orb lets you choose the element and does 3d8 damage from 90 feet range? I mean it’s just so unbalanced.
Even just in terms of discovering a spell scroll and wanting to copy it into your book; there are so many more evocation spells, so basically the amount of money spent on copying spells is more than double the potential if you choose school of Illusion. And that is at its ENTRY level power.
I’ve found other inconsistencies which annoy me; like Mirror Image doesn’t require concentration - why is that any less complicated than silent image or shadow blade? It confirms for me that in that case, when you cast the illusion, it is made in their mind. Why silent image isn’t the same, and even more so, darkness, I don’t understand? It breaks the principle that spells that require upkeep use concentration.
Whoa, there. Hold up a moment with the "utterly laughable" verdict :)
Darkness also has the function of dispelling any light spells of level 2 or lower that it touches. Obviously, the illusory darkness created by silent imagewould not do this.
I'm still troubled by the line from silent image that says "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." I understand what you were saying earlier since walking through illusory darkness would feel no different than walking through actual magical darkness, but if you take that line at face value, it means that once a creature enters any space where that illusion exists, then it is revealed to be an illusion. You could still cast it on yourself and see out from it while others outside could not see in, but that would be true for any kind of illusion you use the spell to create and not specific to faux darkness. I would say that silent image is intended to be a more versatile version of minor illusion and its abilities fill that role properly for a 1st level spell.
But since this is the tips and tactics forum and not the rules and game mechanics forum, maybe don't sweat the details and go with what's fun for everyone.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is often the part that troubles EVERYONE. But by that logic, for me, that would imply that all ethereal beings in the DnD world would be considered illusions. And yet that is not the case... for me it means if you can touch it, the illusion breaks. But you can’t touch what isn’t there. It’s kind of subjective to interpretation and the spell still has many limits.
In terms of your interpretation, if the DM of your table were to be on the restrictive side, you could create the same effect by creating a dome of paper coated in vantablack (this is what I meant by a veil) - for all intensive purposes, it would look similar to the elemental casting darkness, whilst also reducing the amount of ‘physical’ that can be interacted with from side of the target - he would have to travel to the edge of the dome to discover it, but you could use your action to have it move wherever he does.
The two interpretations is why I draw attention to stripping back the rules and just considering what an illusion IS at its core; it’s something in the sensory perception of others that appears as real as it can be - the things that break illusions are anything that severs what makes it appear real. However, if darkness is expected to be passed through, then I don’t believe the illusion should break.
the only thing that makes it better than minor illusion is that the visual phenomena doesn’t have to by static, and it’s larger.
I think illusionists should actually have a chance to do SOMETHING useful with their spells, if they are creative enough to imagine it. I prefer to reward that creativity, rather than spend the game saying “this spell can’t do that” when in that spell’s case, it is entirely subjective.
@SinopaHolo I mostly agree w/ you about the illusion school being underpowered. It can be very powerful, though, in the hands of a creative player. Even moreso when you have some with the Performance skill or a Kenku in the party. Also, yes, DMs who nerf illusions are boring people. I try to stay away from DMs like that.
Okay, I just looked up the spell Continuous Flame. It lasts FOREVER until dispelled. The Light cantrip goes for 1 full hour without concentration. How in the world does Darkness ONLY last 10 minutes even with concentration? This seems weirdly incongruous from a world-building perspective AND underpowered for a 2nd level spell slot.
@TexasDevin It's not a useless spell by any means. It's just that there's no reason for it to have So Many limitations at a 2nd level spell slot. Also, your point about S.Image. The opponent would have to disbelieve the darkness to even question it. In a world where magical darkness exists, there's no reason for most people to do so.
I feel your pain on the concentration limitations. It’s just a bit silly really - at the end of the day, consider the science of it (even if none is involved)
minor illusion cannot create light because light isn’t static. And yet everything you see is light that has been absorbed and reflected. So the notion that you cannot create the illusion of a light source is debateable - I understand that an illusion should not technically be able to shed light on other things, however.
in the case of creating literal darkness; it is as real to generate a space that absorbs light, as it is to create a space that emits it. So it is ‘utterly laughable’ to have the darkness spell at second level, be as restricted as it is. As a DM, I would homebrew a spell that is more consistent to other spells and allow its use as the player desires.
To pretend that DND isn’t inconsistent, would be delusional...
If there are any spells that encourage creativity on the part of the caster, they would be illusion spells :) That's why I originally said that regardless of the technicalities of whether it works, I would be inclined to go with it at least the first time or two.
Even firing an arrow into the silent image from distance would satisfy the requirement of physical interaction and reveal the darkness as an illusion. A creature with a passive investigation score higher than the DC of the spell, might notice something was strange and be prompted to use their action to make a check, thereby revealing the illusion as well. I don't feel like silent image is overly limited for what it is. It's demonstrably more versatile than minor illusion and incrementally less powerful than phantasmal force and major image.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
@TexasDevin But unless you're some kind of warlock with sentient bows AND arrows, that arrow will not be able to "touch" the darkness created by the illusion. The part in the PHB about interaction is from a sensory perspective. IOW, if I make an illusion (say Disguise Self) that I have horns but I'm really a balding human with a toupee and someone shoots an arrow to hit my horn, and sees the arrow going through my horn, THAT dispels the illusion to any observers. Likewise if someone tries to touch my horn, their hand would go through. Obvious illusion. But most people's arrows have no sensory organs or machines attached to them. Since darkness isn't something you can touch or hear or smell, there's still no reason not to keep believing the illusion. Faith and superstition played a much bigger role in the medieval world than in the modern industrial world, remember? In a world where magic actually happens fairly frequently, no reason not to think that an illusion of darkness is any different from the Darkness spell.
Also you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Silent Image is overly limited. I'm saying that the Darkness spell is overly limited in comparison to the Light cantrip, to Silent Image AND to Continual Flame. It costs a 2nd level slot for a 10 min concentration effect that only does ONE thing. Continual Flame lasts FOREVAHHHH or until dispelled? LOL! what???
Illusion spells have a lot of wiggle room that can either make them overpowed or underpowered depending on what the DM allows. The general rule is that no illusion spell can do what an equal or higher level spell can do. So your interpretation of the spell's description should be based on that.
Silent Image says it creates an image that is revealed to be an illusion by physical interaction (with anything). So maybe the best way to describe that written rule would be that the image flickers where something passed through it like a hologram.
The "one" thing darkness does is rendering combat virtually impossible for those in a given area with no save. That is very much worth a 2nd level slot. Light creating spells on the other hand only serve to replace common equipment that everyone starts with anyway. And continual flame has a material cost to warrant its permanence (and it can still be dispelled by darkness or dispel magic which throws away that money).
Trying to use quote feature this way is annoying so these are in response (and quoting) SinopaHolo:
"It’s extremely frustrating that so many of Illusion spells require concentration and aren’t even that powerful. I mean 3rd level evocations of which there are 5 or up are commonly doing 4d10"
You're rating things in terms of damage. Illusion is not about damage, and while it has some combat control applications it's not geared for combat in general. Evocation is geared to damage, hence more damaging spells and conjuration and enchantment are your batte-controllers. Illusion spells overally work best out of combat.
Illusions can turn family against family, start nation-wide wars, eradicate sanity, take over a kingdom or can bring joy and happiness to people, communicate things more effectively, help resolve people's fears, and so much more. It's an incredibly powerful school of magic. It just requires you think beyond combat. It's not designed for combat, it shines elsewhere. It is best utilised with time and knowledge. Don't blame the spells for you not knowing how to use them properly.
So yeah, there will be few combat spells and lower damage because it's not a combat-focused school of magic.
"whereas illusion has one spell (Phantasmal Killer) is 4th level and is the first decent illusion spell that does damage."
You specifically say this is all so you can exploit Shadow Blade but now claim it's not decent? Eh?! Shadow Blade, a 2nd level illusion spell, does very tidy damage considering it can be combined with weapon-cantrips like Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, can be combined with sneak attack and extra attack features. For the base illusionist a melee blade spell is not helpful, but in a multiclass or spellcasting subclass of a martial class like Rogue (Arcane Trickster) or Fighter (Eldritch Knight) it can be brutal. Arcane Trickster can cast Shadow Blade and draw a shortsword and from then on deal 2d8+1d6 every turn with greater chance of advantage for easy sneak attack plus higher crit rate, does a less resisted damage type, and there's always the option of upcasting or combining ith weapon cantrips. Eldritch Knight with extra attack can be brutal, too, of course especially with Action Surge. A Level 20 EK using upcasted Shadow Blade can deal 16d8 over 4 attacks, double with Action Surge. And if you're in dim light or darkness you have advantage so you can hit more (and potentially crit more). Now imagine another spellcaster in the group using a Hold Person or Hold Monster on the enemy to give you automatic crit on all attacks - sorry, remind us again how this isn't a decent illusion spell?!
And Phantasmal Force isn't the biggest damage dealer with it's 1d6 but that is potentially an automatic 1d6 every turn - no saves, and with the right illusion can keep a target locked out of battle as well. They have to have reason to inspect your illusion as an illusion, and given most enemies don't have high int and lack proficiency in investigation are more likely to fail to identify the illusion as one. And the rulings on "multiple skill checks" apply: unless there is a good reason the creature is not going to be making an investigation check every turn, which takes an action to do, anyway. I do consider locking an opponent down and giving them 1d6 damage every round for free to be very decent.
"I mean shadow blade is 2d8, needs concentration and only lasts a minute at 2nd level, chromatic orb lets you choose the element and does 3d8 damage from 90 feet range? I mean it’s just so unbalanced."
Shadow Blade requires concentration to keep the game balanced so you cannot instantly destroy any enemy by single-handedly paralysing them to give yourself autocrit on a weapon that deals more damage than any other weapon. Even cast at base level, you have a potential of 20d8 over the 1 minute duration for a single casting which is a lot more than the one-use 3d8 of Chromatic Orb. And that's only if you don't get extra attacks or use weapon-cantrips. And as mentioned, it auto-includes a way to get advantage to every attack that is very achievable.
Shadow Blade builds can get monstrous. The concentration is important for the balance. Again, don't blame the spell for your lack of understanding of its potential.
"Even just in terms of discovering a spell scroll and wanting to copy it into your book; there are so many more evocation spells, so basically the amount of money spent on copying spells is more than double the potential if you choose school of Illusion. And that is at its ENTRY level power."
There are more evocation spells because it is a combat-oriented school and the different spells provide more options for dealing with different enemies. It is also a more comprehensive list of spells in combat terms because evocation isn't just damage but also healing: healing spells like Cure Wounds are Evocation, too. And, it provides more variety: the spells as written are quite static. Illusion spells however are geared for out of combat and have variety built in: you have far more ways to use Silent Image than you do a Fireball, more ways to use Phantasmal Force than you do a Healing Word. You don't have more of them because you don't need any: the illusion spell list gives you enough to do more than the evocation spell list many times over. If you think outside of "combat", that is.
"I’ve found other inconsistencies which annoy me; like Mirror Image doesn’t require concentration - why is that any less complicated than silent image or shadow blade? It confirms for me that in that case, when you cast the illusion, it is made in their mind. Why silent image isn’t the same, and even more so, darkness, I don’t understand? It breaks the principle that spells that require upkeep use concentration."
Concentration isn't about upkeep. It's about balance. Mirror Image is a very useful defensive spell, but it is quite limited, the effectiveness fades in later levels with enemies having multiple attacks. It's usefulness is largely in part because of the lack of concentration. Blur, another illusory defense spell of the same level, is more effective as the effect is more persistent and is better at keeping you safe but requires concentration, to balance. It's also so enemies have a way to end the spell early. When designers made up concentration rules for spells they were not thinking about the rp side of things: they needed a balance mechanic so you cannot stack the super-synergy-combo spells for instant-win-every-situation victories. Without this concentration mechanic, you could single-handedly take out a tarrasque with ease by like 5th level. It may not always fit in a narrative way, but concentration is very important.
"I think illusionists should actually have a chance to do SOMETHING useful with their spells, if they are creative enough to imagine it. I prefer to reward that creativity, rather than spend the game saying “this spell can’t do that” when in that spell’s case, it is entirely subjective."
Yeah but the problem is the things illusionists can do is super-amazeballs-*******-awesome outside of combat but because the one area it's less effective in, combat, is what you focus on you are the one imposing limits.
There is a spell for creating darkness at 2nd level and it has this level for a reason because of the many ways it can be useful either directly or indirectly by synergising with other effects and features. By letting people use it with Silent Image you are: giving them access to a spell 2 levels sooner than the game was balanced for, you're giving them a level 1 darkness that could block some of a 9th level daylight spell by effect making it far superior to the actual darkness spell, you are completely negating features like Devil's Sight and if anyone in your group now or a future person who joins ever wants to use a Shadow Sorc they're probably not gonna like that the wizard with level 1 silent image is somehow a lot more effective at shadow than they are. By going by "knowing" of the illusion being what lets you see through it, then you and your party are all able to hide in the darkness imposing disadvantage to all attacks against you, you are unable to be targeted by any spells that require sight to see (which is most of them) and you all have advantage on your attacks against the enemy. All for a 1st level spell that at 18th level you could get to cast at-will without spell slots.
Given how that is extremely overpowered and unbalanced I'd say: NUH UH. But it would be balanced to create the effect of darkness but anyone passing through realises it is an illusion. If you want a narrative in-game way of 'splaining this perhaps this: the spell's magic is like an energy, this energy fills the space of the illusion and creates a signal: anything that would become aware of the energy/space has senses manipulated to see/hear/smell/whatever that illusion you specified. If a creature identifies the illusion to be such they resist some of that signal so it appears translucent or hollow to them. Passing through the space means direct interaction with the spell's energy which is enough to also make them aware of the illusion being an illusion. This made-up explanation is fitting with the description of the illusion school and why some require saves and others do not: saves are for when the illusion is cast into a target mind directly: the spell energy isn't in a space but rather into the creature's brain whereas area illusions like silent image are in an area and simply send out a sort of "signal" to affect the senses.
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I'm going to reiterate again you are seriously missing the point and potential of illusions. Especially for a 14th level Illusionist Wizard with their Illusory Reality feature - holy shizfluff, the things you can do with that are insane.
Your issue is not the rules, friend, it's your lack of creativity and understanding, I am sorry to say.
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I agree with a lot of the things you say, and you seem like more of a veteran at this than me. Like I said, new.
i like your arguments about the versatility of the illusions and their use outside of battle. But I would personally maintain that I still think there’s a balance issue. Spells that require concentration should often give more bang for their buck, and having not known about booming blade (don’t know what book that’s in, but couldn’t find it in xanthar or phb), I’m inclined to understand where shadowblade can be more effective. But personally, I wanted it to be effective for me - I wasn’t doubting that rogues or Asamar’s could potentially do heaps of damage with it - I was talking about it in reference to the school of Illusion, as a Wizard. It was also a very minor part of what I was trying to say.
As for restricting silent image as per your description of it, that’s totally up to you - I don’t see illusions that way, not in any conventional sense. And I don’t agree that it’s mimicking darkness - because it isn’t - it’s creating an illusion of it. Anyone prompted to investigate further, would see through the illusion. It’s not actual darkness where the spell follows whatever it was cast on on its own, and it can[t be investigated to remove its effect. I don’t think it’s a balancing issue when it requires concentration just to accomplish the task, and like I said, more bang for your buck. Why should illusions be limited to the illusion of a higher level spell? That makes no sense? It’s no different than making illusory money and saying that mimics the creation spell. It’s not creating actual darkness, just something that looks like it.
I’m also not sure I agree about mirror image vs blurr - if a creature does 3 attacks against blurr, it has to roll twice on each attack. if it attacks 3 times against mirror image, it has to roll against you at least 3 times, BUT it effectively has disadvantage on the first 2, so that’s 5, and then they still may not hit your mirror image as they each have an armour class - so it has the potential to hold up for longer. The same goes for AoE really, all the spell says is when you’re targeted for an attack - so it still maintains the same level of disadvantage...
overall - I see what you’re getting at with shadowblade, but it’s really only useful when paired with other things, not that great as a stand-alone spell - and it’s not like you can’t pair up your evocation spells with things as well - so when you’re comparing combos, it’s not like it doesn’t stand up equally to others, but standalone, it’s a poor spell. In terms of silent image darkness - I just disagree inherently with how you see illusion spells. And there’s nothing in the wording of the spell that says I can’t do it this way - like i’ve said before, entirely subjective. Which is far more progress than was being made when people debate about creating fog or smoke. Subjective at least means you have a decent chance of arguing your case and ultimately, agree to disagree is the best result anyone will get with that, no one can flat out say no, because that makes them the kind of person who thinks they’re always right, even when it’s clearly up to opinion. As with ACTUAL darkness, I think it’s a defensive spell and I don’t think it should require concentration. It’s not like you couldn’t use the continual flame to dazzle opponents - why don’t you try holding a bright light up to your eyes and try and attack someone ahahaha flash grenades are a thing for a reason.
I am in agreement that illusions can be quite powerful. They can ALSO be extremely weak. This is in part b/c of game balance issues, yes, but also b/c some DMs do not like creative illusion users having such a versatile tool. I think part of the frustration on the part of people who like to get devious with illusions is that so much of what we have the potential to do is limited by DM fiat. Therefore the in-game-experience, rules knowledge, prejudices and general mood of a particular DM at a particular time all factor into how enjoyable illusion spells are to use for the player.
RE: physical interaction to disbelieve an illusion and @DxJxC's point about arrows causing an obvious "this is an illusion" effect. Physical interaction can mean a lot of different things. Your reading of the spell is a subjective one. A) There is nothing in the spell description that describes the shimmer effect you mentioned. B) The idea that an arrow fired from 280 feet away at an illusion of darkness is enough to reveal its illusory nature substantially weakens illusion magic in general. Anybody with an average INT score and a longbow/crossbow becomes capable at nullifying a large portion of illusion utility. If all DMs rule that way, many uses of Major Image are functionally crippled by most NPCs with a longbow. "Is that owlbear real? Fire an arrow at it." "Is that barrel real? Fire an arrow at it." It is precisely this type of parsimmonious attitude about illusions that makes people NOT want to specialize in illusions in most games. Illusionist Wizards before level 14 would be nerfed by this. Craptastic!! Thank you for demonstrating @SinopaHolo's point.
Silent Image in front of a Gelantinous Cube.
PC: I fire an arrow at it.
DM: It goes right through. It appears to be an illusion.
PC: I walk right through it.
DM: You are engulfed by a gelantinous cube.
@Trirhabda I like that. Though it would assume the mage casting the illusion has a way to talk to the GCube. "So I need you to not move while some nosy people are approaching you. Yes, I told you to eat people who come down this corridor unless it's me, but for this to work, I need you to just stay still for a few minutes." Meanwhile the party rogue just around the corner, hears the conversation and realizes that something isn't right.
I would argue that if you’re in it, you touched it and reveal its nature because that’s what it says in the spell description. I get the “you can’t feel darkness” but that’s not RAW. I’d do the same for a fog like use too. I would allow it to block LOS as long as the intended blocked LOS target isn’t touching it.
I have stuck myself in an illusion (which means I can see through it) and used that to attack unseen from range. The illusion is only revealed to the person who reveals the illusion. That’s the way I’ve played it anyway. You probably won’t get a ton of mileage out of it, but maybe a shot or two with advantage while the enemy figures out where you are.
"Not all those who wander are lost"