Warlocks got quite a bit more summoning options with Tashas Cauldron of everything. I especially like that you can now aberrations. However, I'm wondering: mechanically, are these options as good as the current ones?
Let's compare Summon fiend with Summon greater demon:
Summon greater demon is a 4th level spell, so you can get it at 7th level and can cast it max 4 times per day at high levels. It doesn't require concentration if you don't want to concentrate on it, so theoretically you could have several of these out at the same time. Creatures you are getting? Cr4: Dybbuk, shadow demon CR5: Barlgura, Tanarukk. Cr:6 Vrock
Now summon fiend is a 6th level spell. You only ever get 1 known 6th level spell, so you would be giving up Mass suggestion, Eyebite or something similar. The fiend statblock has 50 or 60 hp, 3 attacks. About somewhere between Barlgura and Tanaruk in powerlevel? The bonus is that it doesn't turn on you, you it is tactically more flexible, as it can also protect your party instead of being purely offensive tool.
Also, how do these interact with planar binding, now that warlocks gets it too? I'm under the impression that it is possible to bind summons from Summon greater demon, but what about Summon fiend?
So, how good is the added tactical flexibility? Does it make up for the less powerful summons? (of course, if you are playing a demon summoning warlock, you take both anyway)
The new summon spells are great as an option for your concentration/spell slot when compared to your average spell. You get the tactical advantages of an extra body on the battlefield, consistent round by round damage without consuming your action economy, and some unique shenanigans you can get up to depending on the specific variety of thing summoned.
But when compared to the existing summon spells they fall short of the optimal options that already existed, but they don't rely on the DM deciding what you summon, maintaining control of the summon, or just the bogging down that comes with something like having a swarm of fey all casting spells or an army of animated dead that have to be dragged with you everywhere you go. Basically they're a lot better balanced and easier to use.
The new summon spells are great as an option for your concentration/spell slot when compared to your average spell. You get the tactical advantages of an extra body on the battlefield, consistent round by round damage without consuming your action economy, and some unique shenanigans you can get up to depending on the specific variety of thing summoned.
But when compared to the existing summon spells they fall short of the optimal options that already existed, but they don't rely on the DM deciding what you summon, maintaining control of the summon, or just the bogging down that comes with something like having a swarm of fey all casting spells or an army of animated dead that have to be dragged with you everywhere you go. Basically they're a lot better balanced and easier to use.
Full agree here.
I am super close to just banning Conjure Animals, Animate Objects, and other mass summons spells as they are a pain in the ass to run overall.
Summon Beast is pretty clearly inferior to Conjure Animals at level 3 -- a level 3 beast only applies 11.5 dpr with 35 hp, 8x CR 1/4 animal averages around 50 dpr with 11 hp each (88 total) though it varies with what you get. The summon will generally have better hit chance (likely around +7 to hit with pack tactics) but it's not enough to compensate for raw numbers. Of course, it's a DM call exactly what a conjure animals gets, so maybe better to look at spells that have consistent results
Giant Insect gives you a lot better control over what you get, so we can more reliably compare
Level 4 summon beast (level 7 caster with stat 18): Attack +7/25, Defense 15/40
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Centipede): attack +4/45, and poison (105, DC 10, negates, worth maybe another +40 damage), Defense 13/4 (x10)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Waspx5): attack +4/27.5, and poison (52, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +35 damage), Defense 12/13 (x5)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Spiderx3): attack +5/22.5, and poison (27, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +18 damage), Defense 14/26 (x3)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Scorpion): attack +4/20.5, and poison (22, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +15 damage), Defense 15/52
The giant insects have higher damage output at lower accuracy, though the way their initiative works is confusing ('they act on your turn'?)
I like the Tasha's summons because they are simple and effective. Not overpowered, not broken and don't clutter the map.
As a DM I share Matt Mercer's sentiment towards Conjuration - ie. it may be fun for a player to put 8 other creatures on the map but the only thing in my head that goes like a mantra is "f*** that spell" :D
Summon Beast is pretty clearly inferior to Conjure Animals at level 3 -- a level 3 beast only applies 11.5 dpr with 35 hp, 8x CR 1/4 animal averages around 50 dpr with 11 hp each (88 total) though it varies with what you get. The summon will generally have better hit chance (likely around +7 to hit with pack tactics) but it's not enough to compensate for raw numbers. Of course, it's a DM call exactly what a conjure animals gets, so maybe better to look at spells that have consistent results
Giant Insect gives you a lot better control over what you get, so we can more reliably compare
Level 4 summon beast (level 7 caster with stat 18): Attack +7/25, Defense 15/40
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Centipede): attack +4/45, and poison (105, DC 10, negates, worth maybe another +40 damage), Defense 13/4 (x10)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Waspx5): attack +4/27.5, and poison (52, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +35 damage), Defense 12/13 (x5)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Spiderx3): attack +5/22.5, and poison (27, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +18 damage), Defense 14/26 (x3)
Level 4 Giant Insects (Giant Scorpion): attack +4/20.5, and poison (22, DC 11, half, worth maybe another +15 damage), Defense 15/52
The giant insects have higher damage output at lower accuracy, though the way their initiative works is confusing ('they act on your turn'?)
Conjure Spells are way overtuned and this is a great example.
3rd level spell putting out 50 damage per round is pretty stupid...a well placed Fireball might do 28 damage to three creatures but only once. Where as this can put out 500 damage average with the same slot over 10 rounds.
They were a mistake from the get go and would be the only thing I suggest fully removing from the game or at least limiting to 2 creatures.
Conjure Spells are way overtuned and this is a great example.
Oh, I agree, but putting out the new spells without applying errata to the old spells just means people look at the new spells and go "meh, I'll pass". It's particularly a problem that the Tasha's summons are terrible at level 3 (they get +1 damage per round over the level 2 version...), and since conjure animals is sort of a signature spell for druids at level 3 (it's their Fireball -- deliberately overtuned because signature) it's very noticeable. Also, I find the Tasha's spells boring; while there are balance issues with using monster manual entries, having summons be unrelated also feels weird. I would have just errata'd the old spells.
Animate Objects: well, animated objects are boring anyway. I would probably say 'one Huge, two Large, three Medium, or four swarms of Small/Tiny' and then adjust stats a bit.
Conjure Spells are way overtuned and this is a great example.
Oh, I agree, but putting out the new spells without applying errata to the old spells just means people look at the new spells and go "meh, I'll pass". It's particularly a problem that the Tasha's summons are terrible at level 3 (they get +1 damage per round over the level 2 version...), and since conjure animals is sort of a signature spell for druids at level 3 (it's their Fireball -- deliberately overtuned because signature) it's very noticeable. Also, I find the Tasha's spells boring; while there are balance issues with using monster manual entries, having summons be unrelated also feels weird. I would have just errata'd the old spells.
Animate Objects: well, animated objects are boring anyway. I would probably say 'one Huge, two Large, three Medium, or four swarms of Small/Tiny' and then adjust stats a bit.
Summoning the fae gives you the option to charm something outside of the action economy, which is pretty cool. Nothing I have read suggests that you can’t keep charming a new creature each round, which sounds like it’s due for errata. Unless I am missing something?
Summoning the fae gives you the option to charm something outside of the action economy, which is pretty cool. Nothing I have read suggests that you can’t keep charming a new creature each round, which sounds like it’s due for errata. Unless I am missing something?
Appears to be true, though it is only charmed by the summoner and the fey and thus it's perfectly free to beat up the rest of the party.
Summoning the fae gives you the option to charm something outside of the action economy, which is pretty cool. Nothing I have read suggests that you can’t keep charming a new creature each round, which sounds like it’s due for errata. Unless I am missing something?
Appears to be true, though it is only charmed by the summoner and the fey and thus it's perfectly free to beat up the rest of the party.
Yup, as I have personally discovered. Still pretty cool in niche situations.
Yes but conjure spells are limited in the way you can use them, they cant be used unless you have the space for 8 large creature, and this is where the new summon spells come in, that and the animals you conjure are often killed quickly in an aoe, whilst these new spells will last much longer. they definetly are a pain to run if the player isnt organised (can't use mob rules fast), but they are also one of the few powerful option for druids/rangers, magic resistance is also a massive hit. so while fireball is still doing 3x28, in later levels, conjure animals is doing 50 or even just 25 split among all the enemies, and it is reduced round on round, they're good, but if managed well can be a great took for struggling druids/rangers
Yes but conjure spells are limited in the way you can use them, they cant be used unless you have the space for 8 large creature, and this is where the new summon spells come in, that and the animals you conjure are often killed quickly in an aoe, whilst these new spells will last much longer. they definetly are a pain to run if the player isnt organised (can't use mob rules fast), but they are also one of the few powerful option for druids/rangers, magic resistance is also a massive hit. so while fireball is still doing 3x28, in later levels, conjure animals is doing 50 or even just 25 split among all the enemies, and it is reduced round on round, they're good, but if managed well can be a great took for struggling druids/rangers
Conjure spells are a conundrum as they are a source of major damage for some classes (Druid, Ranger) and you need some damage boosts to keep up as these classes.
The major issue is that when the optimal choice is picked (8 wolves or velociraptors) then its boarding on too good and if something else is picked (smaller amount of higher CR creatures) it seems too weak in comparison.
Also as the DM you pretty much have to give the PC what they want or you are viewed as the "bad guy".
Yes but conjure spells are limited in the way you can use them, they cant be used unless you have the space for 8 large creature, and this is where the new summon spells come in, that and the animals you conjure are often killed quickly in an aoe, whilst these new spells will last much longer. they definetly are a pain to run if the player isnt organised (can't use mob rules fast), but they are also one of the few powerful option for druids/rangers, magic resistance is also a massive hit. so while fireball is still doing 3x28, in later levels, conjure animals is doing 50 or even just 25 split among all the enemies, and it is reduced round on round, they're good, but if managed well can be a great took for struggling druids/rangers
Conjure spells are a conundrum as they are a source of major damage for some classes (Druid, Ranger) and you need some damage boosts to keep up as these classes.
The major issue is that when the optimal choice is picked (8 wolves or velociraptors) then its boarding on too good and if something else is picked (smaller amount of higher CR creatures) it seems too weak in comparison.
Also as the DM you pretty much have to give the PC what they want or you are viewed as the "bad guy".
Agreed. In fact, I would argue one of the main sources of damage for rangers at tiers 3 and 4.
8 wolves do the most damage. True. But 2 brown bears or 4 warhorses do "enough damage" to put ranger's total damage output right in line with a level 11+ paladin or fighter, so that should "be enough" damage without ruining the game for others. As mentioned in other threads, there are mob rules in the DMG, and taking average damage for the beasts is always faster, WAY faster than rolling all those dice. One of the greatest thing about the conjure animals though is the utility. Mounts of the land, sea, or air, furry shields, grappling and restraining, even just outright deterrence. A giant constrictor snake is really fun!
That all being said, these Tasha's conjure spells come sooner, are combat ready, are easier to run, and have an effect on a battle. So, options.
Treantmonk did a nice video on this. Summon beasts is quite useful because it is a second level spell.
I also realized that Summon fey is actually really good for fey wanderer, because it combos with their base abilities Mirtful fae teleports and charms as a bonus action every round. If it fails, Beguiling Twist gives you second charm/fear attempt as a reaction. So, for rangers, I'd say these are really good additions.
Summon undead and summon shadow spawn provide interesting control effects and are probably worth it for those alone for warlocks.
Yes but conjure spells are limited in the way you can use them, they cant be used unless you have the space for 8 large creature, and this is where the new summon spells come in, that and the animals you conjure are often killed quickly in an aoe, whilst these new spells will last much longer. they definetly are a pain to run if the player isnt organised (can't use mob rules fast), but they are also one of the few powerful option for druids/rangers, magic resistance is also a massive hit. so while fireball is still doing 3x28, in later levels, conjure animals is doing 50 or even just 25 split among all the enemies, and it is reduced round on round, they're good, but if managed well can be a great took for struggling druids/rangers
Conjure spells are a conundrum as they are a source of major damage for some classes (Druid, Ranger) and you need some damage boosts to keep up as these classes.
The major issue is that when the optimal choice is picked (8 wolves or velociraptors) then its boarding on too good and if something else is picked (smaller amount of higher CR creatures) it seems too weak in comparison.
Also as the DM you pretty much have to give the PC what they want or you are viewed as the "bad guy".
Agreed. In fact, I would argue one of the main sources of damage for rangers at tiers 3 and 4.
8 wolves do the most damage. True. But 2 brown bears or 4 warhorses do "enough damage" to put ranger's total damage output right in line with a level 11+ paladin or fighter, so that should "be enough" damage without ruining the game for others. As mentioned in other threads, there are mob rules in the DMG, and taking average damage for the beasts is always faster, WAY faster than rolling all those dice. One of the greatest thing about the conjure animals though is the utility. Mounts of the land, sea, or air, furry shields, grappling and restraining, even just outright deterrence. A giant constrictor snake is really fun!
That all being said, these Tasha's conjure spells come sooner, are combat ready, are easier to run, and have an effect on a battle. So, options.
I don't. Druids and rangers don't really need help keeping up. Both are more than able to contribute without summoning extra creatures to the field. All things being equal, a 13th-level ranger who's dueling with hunter's mark active is only outputting 1 DPR less per turn than a fighter with three attacks. The fighter can pull ahead with their Action Surge, but it's also so flexible that only using it to attack is foolhardy. And, no, that doesn't factor in subclasses. The point being, the gulf between them isn't as far apart as some make them out to be.
Conjuring a few extra fey creatures to the field is all fine and dandy, but they lack magical damage. Against anything with resistances or immunities, they simply can't hurt them. I don't care if you blow a 5th-level spell slot and conjure up 32 wolves, they're not taking down that iron golem. The arguably bigger advantage of spells like conjure animals is the fey summons also draw attention. They can soak up attacks that would otherwise go to members of the party. That flexibility allows it to serve both offensively (against softer targets) and defensively (against hard-hitting ones).
Conjure _______ are strongest as utility and defense, with the damage being icing on the cake. Absorbing hits, blocking, knocking down or restraining enemies, shoving, and grappling all do wonders for the battlefield.
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Warlocks got quite a bit more summoning options with Tashas Cauldron of everything. I especially like that you can now aberrations. However, I'm wondering: mechanically, are these options as good as the current ones?
Let's compare Summon fiend with Summon greater demon:
Summon greater demon is a 4th level spell, so you can get it at 7th level and can cast it max 4 times per day at high levels. It doesn't require concentration if you don't want to concentrate on it, so theoretically you could have several of these out at the same time. Creatures you are getting? Cr4: Dybbuk, shadow demon CR5: Barlgura, Tanarukk. Cr:6 Vrock
Now summon fiend is a 6th level spell. You only ever get 1 known 6th level spell, so you would be giving up Mass suggestion, Eyebite or something similar. The fiend statblock has 50 or 60 hp, 3 attacks. About somewhere between Barlgura and Tanaruk in powerlevel? The bonus is that it doesn't turn on you, you it is tactically more flexible, as it can also protect your party instead of being purely offensive tool.
Also, how do these interact with planar binding, now that warlocks gets it too? I'm under the impression that it is possible to bind summons from Summon greater demon, but what about Summon fiend?
So, how good is the added tactical flexibility? Does it make up for the less powerful summons? (of course, if you are playing a demon summoning warlock, you take both anyway)
The new summon spells are great as an option for your concentration/spell slot when compared to your average spell. You get the tactical advantages of an extra body on the battlefield, consistent round by round damage without consuming your action economy, and some unique shenanigans you can get up to depending on the specific variety of thing summoned.
But when compared to the existing summon spells they fall short of the optimal options that already existed, but they don't rely on the DM deciding what you summon, maintaining control of the summon, or just the bogging down that comes with something like having a swarm of fey all casting spells or an army of animated dead that have to be dragged with you everywhere you go. Basically they're a lot better balanced and easier to use.
Full agree here.
I am super close to just banning Conjure Animals, Animate Objects, and other mass summons spells as they are a pain in the ass to run overall.
Also, with the new summon spells there isn't the chance of losing control of your summon and it attacking the party
Yeah for sure!
Summon Beast is pretty clearly inferior to Conjure Animals at level 3 -- a level 3 beast only applies 11.5 dpr with 35 hp, 8x CR 1/4 animal averages around 50 dpr with 11 hp each (88 total) though it varies with what you get. The summon will generally have better hit chance (likely around +7 to hit with pack tactics) but it's not enough to compensate for raw numbers. Of course, it's a DM call exactly what a conjure animals gets, so maybe better to look at spells that have consistent results
Giant Insect gives you a lot better control over what you get, so we can more reliably compare
The giant insects have higher damage output at lower accuracy, though the way their initiative works is confusing ('they act on your turn'?)
I like the Tasha's summons because they are simple and effective. Not overpowered, not broken and don't clutter the map.
As a DM I share Matt Mercer's sentiment towards Conjuration - ie. it may be fun for a player to put 8 other creatures on the map but the only thing in my head that goes like a mantra is "f*** that spell" :D
Conjure Spells are way overtuned and this is a great example.
3rd level spell putting out 50 damage per round is pretty stupid...a well placed Fireball might do 28 damage to three creatures but only once. Where as this can put out 500 damage average with the same slot over 10 rounds.
They were a mistake from the get go and would be the only thing I suggest fully removing from the game or at least limiting to 2 creatures.
Oh, I agree, but putting out the new spells without applying errata to the old spells just means people look at the new spells and go "meh, I'll pass". It's particularly a problem that the Tasha's summons are terrible at level 3 (they get +1 damage per round over the level 2 version...), and since conjure animals is sort of a signature spell for druids at level 3 (it's their Fireball -- deliberately overtuned because signature) it's very noticeable. Also, I find the Tasha's spells boring; while there are balance issues with using monster manual entries, having summons be unrelated also feels weird. I would have just errata'd the old spells.
With the 1/2/3/4 model, best-case damage becomes
From my perspective, one of the biggest advantages of the Tasha's summoning spells is that the summoned creature doesn't get a save.
Having a summon turn against you is a PITA.
Great fixes! Brings them much more in line.
Summoning the fae gives you the option to charm something outside of the action economy, which is pretty cool. Nothing I have read suggests that you can’t keep charming a new creature each round, which sounds like it’s due for errata. Unless I am missing something?
Appears to be true, though it is only charmed by the summoner and the fey and thus it's perfectly free to beat up the rest of the party.
Yup, as I have personally discovered. Still pretty cool in niche situations.
Yes but conjure spells are limited in the way you can use them, they cant be used unless you have the space for 8 large creature, and this is where the new summon spells come in, that and the animals you conjure are often killed quickly in an aoe, whilst these new spells will last much longer. they definetly are a pain to run if the player isnt organised (can't use mob rules fast), but they are also one of the few powerful option for druids/rangers, magic resistance is also a massive hit. so while fireball is still doing 3x28, in later levels, conjure animals is doing 50 or even just 25 split among all the enemies, and it is reduced round on round, they're good, but if managed well can be a great took for struggling druids/rangers
Conjure spells are a conundrum as they are a source of major damage for some classes (Druid, Ranger) and you need some damage boosts to keep up as these classes.
The major issue is that when the optimal choice is picked (8 wolves or velociraptors) then its boarding on too good and if something else is picked (smaller amount of higher CR creatures) it seems too weak in comparison.
Also as the DM you pretty much have to give the PC what they want or you are viewed as the "bad guy".
Agreed. In fact, I would argue one of the main sources of damage for rangers at tiers 3 and 4.
8 wolves do the most damage. True. But 2 brown bears or 4 warhorses do "enough damage" to put ranger's total damage output right in line with a level 11+ paladin or fighter, so that should "be enough" damage without ruining the game for others. As mentioned in other threads, there are mob rules in the DMG, and taking average damage for the beasts is always faster, WAY faster than rolling all those dice. One of the greatest thing about the conjure animals though is the utility. Mounts of the land, sea, or air, furry shields, grappling and restraining, even just outright deterrence. A giant constrictor snake is really fun!
That all being said, these Tasha's conjure spells come sooner, are combat ready, are easier to run, and have an effect on a battle. So, options.
Treantmonk did a nice video on this. Summon beasts is quite useful because it is a second level spell.
I also realized that Summon fey is actually really good for fey wanderer, because it combos with their base abilities Mirtful fae teleports and charms as a bonus action every round. If it fails, Beguiling Twist gives you second charm/fear attempt as a reaction. So, for rangers, I'd say these are really good additions.
Summon undead and summon shadow spawn provide interesting control effects and are probably worth it for those alone for warlocks.
I don't. Druids and rangers don't really need help keeping up. Both are more than able to contribute without summoning extra creatures to the field. All things being equal, a 13th-level ranger who's dueling with hunter's mark active is only outputting 1 DPR less per turn than a fighter with three attacks. The fighter can pull ahead with their Action Surge, but it's also so flexible that only using it to attack is foolhardy. And, no, that doesn't factor in subclasses. The point being, the gulf between them isn't as far apart as some make them out to be.
Conjuring a few extra fey creatures to the field is all fine and dandy, but they lack magical damage. Against anything with resistances or immunities, they simply can't hurt them. I don't care if you blow a 5th-level spell slot and conjure up 32 wolves, they're not taking down that iron golem. The arguably bigger advantage of spells like conjure animals is the fey summons also draw attention. They can soak up attacks that would otherwise go to members of the party. That flexibility allows it to serve both offensively (against softer targets) and defensively (against hard-hitting ones).
Yes!
Conjure _______ are strongest as utility and defense, with the damage being icing on the cake. Absorbing hits, blocking, knocking down or restraining enemies, shoving, and grappling all do wonders for the battlefield.