Before anything else, I want to make a few personal comments: I did post something similar about this character in the Paladin section a few days ago. I feel those who contributed were helpful and kind but as I presented it from a more mechanical POV most of my responses were also mechanical POV. I thought I would try with a more detailed POV of the character first. The goal is not to make the most powerful character, and while I hope to keep up with the party, I do not want to be the "best" at anything. I want to be effective, but not even the best in the party...A mile wide, and an inch deep kind of thing...
Ar'Nei is a Kazelati Minotaur from Krynn (Dragonlance). He grew up on stories of Kaz and his Solomnic Knight sidekick Huma. From a young age he has dreamed of becoming a hero like Kaz and Huma. To see the world he became a cheff on a ship, where he learned to fight.
His personality is a bit Don Quixote like, without the break from reality. He knows people lie, he knows a windmill is a windmill, however he strives to imitate what he FEELS a Knight/Hero should be. Lots of old-world chivalry type of things...
The campaign: We are starting at level 7. Six players, we have Single Class Cleric, Thief, and Wizard. A barbarian-5/Fighter 2, and an Arcanist-3/Rogue-1/Fighter-3. The GM has asked us to have an idea of what we would look like mechanically at level 2. We rolled, I got an 18, 16, 14, 13, 10, 9.
Then there is Ar'Nei. Arni is a Dex based character, who duel wields. Looking at abilities I want from the different classes that he can multiclass into with his stats what they are
Paladin (Undecided, but Devotion most likely) Level 6 (Especially: Flavor, Flavor, Flave) but on top of the flavor a lot of the class abilities up to level 6 are highly appealing to me.
This creates my level 18 plan. Leaving 2 levels. While not set in stone I would like at least Casting level 9 (depending on Rogue subclass I am at level 8) and one more Attribute Increase/Feat. Obviously, I can get that with another level in Bard and rogue, or 2 levels in Paladin, which leans towards Paladin (as I get the extra laying on hands and the Level 7 subclass feature), or thinking outside the box I could take the rogue level and a level in Sorcerer or Warlock (Warlock does not fit my character idea IMO, but a divine sorcerer level could work, especially as part of the level 7 build).
Trying to balance his backstory with his classes. In someways this would lean towards the Rouge or Bard levels first, however a big focus of what I want for the character actually comes from Paladin
So, my going over in my head:
Should my Rogue levels be Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler
What I should do with the last 2 levels
+2 Paladin
+1 Level Rogue / +1 Bard or Sorcerer
Level distribution at start
Paladin and Rogue are both interesting choices for level 1: (Rogue gets +1 skill, while Paladin gets better Saving throws, especially with his current distribution)?
Bard 4/Paladin 3 or Paladin 4/Bard 3 are mechanically similar but does make what happens at a couple levels very different.
For your starting class, I'd probably recommend Rogue; Dex saves are very common, and if you want go the broad generalist route for your character, the four starting skill proficiencies will help realize that. Personally I would pick Swashbuckler as the Rogue subclass for this build, on account of Rakish Audacity is very strong on a Paladin. Arcane Trickster is underwhelming as a side hustle, especially if you're not going to reach Rogue 9 for Magical Ambush; sure, it gets you two additional caster levels for your final build, but the only other features you're getting from it are a few Wizard cantrips and Mage Hand Legerdemain.
For your starting spread, I would focus more on your immediate roadmap than on your final vision. It's very well to say you want to end up with a 3-way multiclass, but getting there is a totally different thing. You're going to take much longer to get to key feature breakpoints than your single-classed party mates. I also, to be totally honest, do not really see what Bard is doing for you in this mix. Consider starting Rogue 7 (Swashbuckler) per your background description, then leveling in Paladin from there, then taking Bard from there if you still want it by the time you get there. This not only gives you a solid block powerful class features to start with, it follows something of a character arc. You start off as an audacious but untethered Rogue, playing at being a hero; then you take your Paladin Oath and commit to a genuine path of heroism; then, confident in your accomplishments, you take up the skills of a Bard to inspire the next generation of heroes. It's a decent story that also might help make your leveling journey a little less agonizing.
The bard is PRIMARILY about the level 2 ability Jack of all trades and the level 3 Blade subtype stuff (which I see being more the agility fighter type stuff than a lot of the rogue or even fighter type of stuff, basically almost battlemaster for agilty build). That's why it kind of stops at level 5 (where the bardic inspiration becomes short rest over long rest).
From a RAW perspective, you are going to need at least 13 in Dex, Cha, and Str for this multiclass. Assuming you put the 18 into Dex, 16 into Cha, and 13 into Str, that leaves you with a 14 for Con.
Can I ask what is driving the want to be Dex based and dual wield? Because these are not really strengths of a Paladin. You won't be able to cast Paladin spells while dual wielding, and won't be able to cast any Bard spells until level 3 (on top of this, you won't be able to cast ANY Arcane Trickster spells when dual wielding). From a Rogue perspective, you can use a finesse weapon with Str and still get Sneak Attack. So you could go Rapier and Shield (put your Holy Symbol on your shield) and be able to cast your Paladin spells while still getting Sneak Attack and wear Heavy Armor (assuming you take Paladin at 1).
For your Rogue subclass, I would definitely recommend Swashbuckler. You get to add your Cha modifier to your Initiative, get a portion of the Mobile feat for free, and another reliable way to get Sneak Attack. Arcane Trickster is going to add very little to your spellcasting level, and you won't be able to cast these spells unless you drop a weapon. Additionally, you are going to have at best a 10 in Int, so your spell DC and bonus are going to be very low.
Sure ask away. It has a lot more to do with backstory than anything else. A former ship board cook (who was expected to fight, and learned to fight) seems more an agile fighter than a strength based fighter. You basically have those attributes where I put them, however I put the +2 for the race into Dex and the +1 into con. His 4th level edge gets him another +1 to con (it is more background based than anything else, but...) giving him a Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Char 16. Wisdom is 10 right now and Int 9, but those might switch.
Realizing how poor my Wisdom save is, I am leaning towards Paladin, as first level, to get me a little help in that weakness area, but the skill from rogue is nice. However multiclassing into rogue only looses me the one skill overall.
Spell casting is more a sideline, which is definitely why the Swashbuckler makes A LOT of sense to me (Charisma to init , plus a high dex, plus 1/2 my proficiency bonus...)
If the only thing leaning you towards Paladin to start with is the Wisdom save proficiency, you can always patch that up by taking the Resilient feat at some point. Of course, you could do the same thing with Resilient for Dexterity, provided you don't cap out your Dex at character creation.
If the only thing leaning you towards Paladin to start with is the Wisdom save proficiency, you can always patch that up by taking the Resilient feat at some point. Of course, you could do the same thing with Resilient for Dexterity, provided you don't cap out your Dex at character creation.
I had thought of that. I am not overly worried about Dex saves between adding high Charisma and max Dex together for saves
Would it make more sense to go with a Swashbuckling Rogue / Swords Bard multiclass and leave the Paladin out altogether? Then you could dump Str and set your Wis to 13 (with the potential to bump to 14 later on). Maybe the knights that inspire him are more like musketeers than true knights? You can always flavor your College of Swords as a Paladin Oath (one of the potentials listed is "Other blades strike at the wicked, bringing justice to bear against the cruel and powerful."
I am not seeing what the Paladin is bringing to this either mechanically or thematically. If you want to emulate true knights, being a dexterous, dual wielding fighter is not exactly a mesh. Anyone can take an oath to a cause or higher power (without the divine powers that come with it obviously). I worry that you are spreading yourself too thin, and your features are going to be coming online pretty late.
I will consider what you said. Right now I am happy with the end desire being a Pal 8/Rouge 7/Bard 5. Ironically, I feel like getting the starting Bard is more important than the rest. As for the rogue subclass, I will be going swash buckler, the two levels of casting is just not worth it.
So Maybe Bard 5/paladin 2 to start. Then (and this is always been my plan) make decisions on how to reach the end based on what I felt would be most needed the last level...
Would it make more sense to go with a Swashbuckling Rogue / Swords Bard multiclass and leave the Paladin out altogether? Then you could dump Str and set your Wis to 13 (with the potential to bump to 14 later on). Maybe the knights that inspire him are more like musketeers than true knights? You can always flavor your College of Swords as a Paladin Oath (one of the potentials listed is "Other blades strike at the wicked, bringing justice to bear against the cruel and powerful."
I am not seeing what the Paladin is bringing to this either mechanically or thematically. If you want to emulate true knights, being a dexterous, dual wielding fighter is not exactly a mesh. Anyone can take an oath to a cause or higher power (without the divine powers that come with it obviously). I worry that you are spreading yourself too thin, and your features are going to be coming online pretty late.
The more I think about it, the more I think of losing the Rogue. The abilities I am really interested in from it are the Uncanny Dodge and the Evasion, which as I think of the level investment becomes questionable. I would be loosing some sneak attack, but between smites and the level 11 Divine smite ability...
The more I think about it, the more I think of losing the Rogue. The abilities I am really interested in from it are the Uncanny Dodge and the Evasion, which as I think of the level investment becomes questionable. I would be loosing some sneak attack, but between smites and the level 11 Divine smite ability...
Yeah, I think you've got to lose one of these classes, and it seems like you're least attached to Rogue. I think you'll find a Bard/Paladin fits your character concept just as well as a Bard/Paladin/Rogue, and you'll get fundamental features like Extra Attack and your Bard College much more quickly than you would on a three-way split.
With that in mind, here's my revised advice: start with at least Paladin 5, and use Paladin as your base class. This gets you the saves and proficiencies you want, plus you'll start with Extra Attack, which I think is critical for a level 7 frontliner. Since you're starting with capped Charisma, I would personally push that Paladin to 6 for the very powerful bonus to all your saves; then I would take Bard 1 for Bardic Inspiration, which is a great 1-point dip with your high Cha. From there I would level Bard until you pick up College of Swords, and at that point you can either continue on in Bard until you hit Font of Inspiration, or pick up Paladin where you left off if you feel more HP and defensive options better suit where you are in the campaign.
Also, you had mentioned you were probably going to go Oath of Devotion Paladin but weren't totally committed; Devotion is a great choice and I think you'll be very happy with it, but I would also encourage you to take a look at Oath of Glory. Inspiring Smite seems to really fit your concept, and if you go very deep into Paladin you'll get Glorious Defense at level 15, which sort of fills the same purpose as the Uncanny Dodge you would've got from Rogue.
My Dex is maxed, not Charisma (but still at 16 ish) but your point is well taken.
Yah, while I liked the damage bump from rogue, the only things I really wanted were the level 5 and 7. However a one level dip is still possible as level 1 rogue is one of my favorite level 1's.
The bard is PRIMARILY about the level 2 ability Jack of all trades and the level 3 Blade subtype stuff (which I see being more the agility fighter type stuff than a lot of the rogue or even fighter type of stuff, basically almost battlemaster for agilty build). That's why it kind of stops at level 5 (where the bardic inspiration becomes short rest over long rest).
The sword's Bard blade flourishes really aren't very good sadly, except for Defensive Flourish, so you will not get a battlemaster-y feel from them (plus it prevents you using those dice for BI which honestly... BI can be more powerful than the flourishes in many situations). Also honestly.. in a Dragonlance campaign not going 10-Paladin to get that Aura of Courage feels almost criminal. You're going to be fighting so many creatures with big AoE fear-based abilities, and Aura of Courage just shuts them down entirely. Then Improved Divine Smite at level 11 is so much better than Sword's bard flourishes if you want to dual-wield b/c you add 1d8 to every single attack, not just 5 times per SR. And if your character is all about being a hero... being to just inspire all your allies to not be afraid when next to you is so incredibly thematic.
I'd suggest go full Paladin until level 12, either Devotion or Glory, grab Skill Expert as a feat to pick up Expertise, and possibly Resilient:Dex if you want to shore up your Dex saves or Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting if you want to dual wield and your DM doesn't let you grab it from your Paladin FS. Then either pick up Sword's Bard or Swashbuckler depending on your preferred fighting style, Swashbuckler is awesome for mobility, whereas Swords Bard is better for standing still & tanking hits.
Thank you for your comments. I will correct one detail; it is more a Planescape campaign, allowing characters from any world (as they will be transported to)...
I'm leaning that way, but I think the 4/3 split is workable as well (as it gets me both second level bard spells, two 3rd level spell slots for smites, and dual wielding combat style, plus expertise). However, leaning towards the level 5 paladin as it makes it so that in one level, I get the saving throw bonus and if I decide I don't need it quite yet, I can grab the level 3 Bard for all the above.
The more I think about it, the more I think of losing the Rogue. The abilities I am really interested in from it are the Uncanny Dodge and the Evasion, which as I think of the level investment becomes questionable. I would be loosing some sneak attack, but between smites and the level 11 Divine smite ability...
Yeah, I think you've got to lose one of these classes, and it seems like you're least attached to Rogue. I think you'll find a Bard/Paladin fits your character concept just as well as a Bard/Paladin/Rogue, and you'll get fundamental features like Extra Attack and your Bard College much more quickly than you would on a three-way split.
With that in mind, here's my revised advice: start with at least Paladin 5, and use Paladin as your base class. This gets you the saves and proficiencies you want, plus you'll start with Extra Attack, which I think is critical for a level 7 frontliner. Since you're starting with capped Charisma, I would personally push that Paladin to 6 for the very powerful bonus to all your saves; then I would take Bard 1 for Bardic Inspiration, which is a great 1-point dip with your high Cha. From there I would level Bard until you pick up College of Swords, and at that point you can either continue on in Bard until you hit Font of Inspiration, or pick up Paladin where you left off if you feel more HP and defensive options better suit where you are in the campaign.
Also, you had mentioned you were probably going to go Oath of Devotion Paladin but weren't totally committed; Devotion is a great choice and I think you'll be very happy with it, but I would also encourage you to take a look at Oath of Glory. Inspiring Smite seems to really fit your concept, and if you go very deep into Paladin you'll get Glorious Defense at level 15, which sort of fills the same purpose as the Uncanny Dodge you would've got from Rogue.
I want to thank you for pointing me towards Glory. The more I think of his motivations the more I think it fits him. As I phrased it to the GM he is a Glory Paladin with delusions of devotion. Definitely fits the idea of someone who is striving to be a Hero because of legends of the past...
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Before anything else, I want to make a few personal comments: I did post something similar about this character in the Paladin section a few days ago. I feel those who contributed were helpful and kind but as I presented it from a more mechanical POV most of my responses were also mechanical POV. I thought I would try with a more detailed POV of the character first. The goal is not to make the most powerful character, and while I hope to keep up with the party, I do not want to be the "best" at anything. I want to be effective, but not even the best in the party...A mile wide, and an inch deep kind of thing...
Ar'Nei is a Kazelati Minotaur from Krynn (Dragonlance). He grew up on stories of Kaz and his Solomnic Knight sidekick Huma. From a young age he has dreamed of becoming a hero like Kaz and Huma. To see the world he became a cheff on a ship, where he learned to fight.
His personality is a bit Don Quixote like, without the break from reality. He knows people lie, he knows a windmill is a windmill, however he strives to imitate what he FEELS a Knight/Hero should be. Lots of old-world chivalry type of things...
The campaign: We are starting at level 7. Six players, we have Single Class Cleric, Thief, and Wizard. A barbarian-5/Fighter 2, and an Arcanist-3/Rogue-1/Fighter-3. The GM has asked us to have an idea of what we would look like mechanically at level 2. We rolled, I got an 18, 16, 14, 13, 10, 9.
Then there is Ar'Nei. Arni is a Dex based character, who duel wields. Looking at abilities I want from the different classes that he can multiclass into with his stats what they are
This creates my level 18 plan. Leaving 2 levels. While not set in stone I would like at least Casting level 9 (depending on Rogue subclass I am at level 8) and one more Attribute Increase/Feat. Obviously, I can get that with another level in Bard and rogue, or 2 levels in Paladin, which leans towards Paladin (as I get the extra laying on hands and the Level 7 subclass feature), or thinking outside the box I could take the rogue level and a level in Sorcerer or Warlock (Warlock does not fit my character idea IMO, but a divine sorcerer level could work, especially as part of the level 7 build).
Trying to balance his backstory with his classes. In someways this would lean towards the Rouge or Bard levels first, however a big focus of what I want for the character actually comes from Paladin
So, my going over in my head:
For your starting class, I'd probably recommend Rogue; Dex saves are very common, and if you want go the broad generalist route for your character, the four starting skill proficiencies will help realize that. Personally I would pick Swashbuckler as the Rogue subclass for this build, on account of Rakish Audacity is very strong on a Paladin. Arcane Trickster is underwhelming as a side hustle, especially if you're not going to reach Rogue 9 for Magical Ambush; sure, it gets you two additional caster levels for your final build, but the only other features you're getting from it are a few Wizard cantrips and Mage Hand Legerdemain.
For your starting spread, I would focus more on your immediate roadmap than on your final vision. It's very well to say you want to end up with a 3-way multiclass, but getting there is a totally different thing. You're going to take much longer to get to key feature breakpoints than your single-classed party mates. I also, to be totally honest, do not really see what Bard is doing for you in this mix. Consider starting Rogue 7 (Swashbuckler) per your background description, then leveling in Paladin from there, then taking Bard from there if you still want it by the time you get there. This not only gives you a solid block powerful class features to start with, it follows something of a character arc. You start off as an audacious but untethered Rogue, playing at being a hero; then you take your Paladin Oath and commit to a genuine path of heroism; then, confident in your accomplishments, you take up the skills of a Bard to inspire the next generation of heroes. It's a decent story that also might help make your leveling journey a little less agonizing.
The bard is PRIMARILY about the level 2 ability Jack of all trades and the level 3 Blade subtype stuff (which I see being more the agility fighter type stuff than a lot of the rogue or even fighter type of stuff, basically almost battlemaster for agilty build). That's why it kind of stops at level 5 (where the bardic inspiration becomes short rest over long rest).
Sure ask away. It has a lot more to do with backstory than anything else. A former ship board cook (who was expected to fight, and learned to fight) seems more an agile fighter than a strength based fighter. You basically have those attributes where I put them, however I put the +2 for the race into Dex and the +1 into con. His 4th level edge gets him another +1 to con (it is more background based than anything else, but...) giving him a Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Char 16. Wisdom is 10 right now and Int 9, but those might switch.
Realizing how poor my Wisdom save is, I am leaning towards Paladin, as first level, to get me a little help in that weakness area, but the skill from rogue is nice. However multiclassing into rogue only looses me the one skill overall.
Spell casting is more a sideline, which is definitely why the Swashbuckler makes A LOT of sense to me (Charisma to init , plus a high dex, plus 1/2 my proficiency bonus...)
If the only thing leaning you towards Paladin to start with is the Wisdom save proficiency, you can always patch that up by taking the Resilient feat at some point. Of course, you could do the same thing with Resilient for Dexterity, provided you don't cap out your Dex at character creation.
I had thought of that. I am not overly worried about Dex saves between adding high Charisma and max Dex together for saves
I will consider what you said. Right now I am happy with the end desire being a Pal 8/Rouge 7/Bard 5. Ironically, I feel like getting the starting Bard is more important than the rest. As for the rogue subclass, I will be going swash buckler, the two levels of casting is just not worth it.
So Maybe Bard 5/paladin 2 to start. Then (and this is always been my plan) make decisions on how to reach the end based on what I felt would be most needed the last level...
The more I think about it, the more I think of losing the Rogue. The abilities I am really interested in from it are the Uncanny Dodge and the Evasion, which as I think of the level investment becomes questionable. I would be loosing some sneak attack, but between smites and the level 11 Divine smite ability...
Yeah, I think you've got to lose one of these classes, and it seems like you're least attached to Rogue. I think you'll find a Bard/Paladin fits your character concept just as well as a Bard/Paladin/Rogue, and you'll get fundamental features like Extra Attack and your Bard College much more quickly than you would on a three-way split.
With that in mind, here's my revised advice: start with at least Paladin 5, and use Paladin as your base class. This gets you the saves and proficiencies you want, plus you'll start with Extra Attack, which I think is critical for a level 7 frontliner. Since you're starting with capped Charisma, I would personally push that Paladin to 6 for the very powerful bonus to all your saves; then I would take Bard 1 for Bardic Inspiration, which is a great 1-point dip with your high Cha. From there I would level Bard until you pick up College of Swords, and at that point you can either continue on in Bard until you hit Font of Inspiration, or pick up Paladin where you left off if you feel more HP and defensive options better suit where you are in the campaign.
Also, you had mentioned you were probably going to go Oath of Devotion Paladin but weren't totally committed; Devotion is a great choice and I think you'll be very happy with it, but I would also encourage you to take a look at Oath of Glory. Inspiring Smite seems to really fit your concept, and if you go very deep into Paladin you'll get Glorious Defense at level 15, which sort of fills the same purpose as the Uncanny Dodge you would've got from Rogue.
Will look at Glory.
My Dex is maxed, not Charisma (but still at 16 ish) but your point is well taken.
Yah, while I liked the damage bump from rogue, the only things I really wanted were the level 5 and 7. However a one level dip is still possible as level 1 rogue is one of my favorite level 1's.
The sword's Bard blade flourishes really aren't very good sadly, except for Defensive Flourish, so you will not get a battlemaster-y feel from them (plus it prevents you using those dice for BI which honestly... BI can be more powerful than the flourishes in many situations). Also honestly.. in a Dragonlance campaign not going 10-Paladin to get that Aura of Courage feels almost criminal. You're going to be fighting so many creatures with big AoE fear-based abilities, and Aura of Courage just shuts them down entirely. Then Improved Divine Smite at level 11 is so much better than Sword's bard flourishes if you want to dual-wield b/c you add 1d8 to every single attack, not just 5 times per SR. And if your character is all about being a hero... being to just inspire all your allies to not be afraid when next to you is so incredibly thematic.
I'd suggest go full Paladin until level 12, either Devotion or Glory, grab Skill Expert as a feat to pick up Expertise, and possibly Resilient:Dex if you want to shore up your Dex saves or Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting if you want to dual wield and your DM doesn't let you grab it from your Paladin FS. Then either pick up Sword's Bard or Swashbuckler depending on your preferred fighting style, Swashbuckler is awesome for mobility, whereas Swords Bard is better for standing still & tanking hits.
Thank you for your comments. I will correct one detail; it is more a Planescape campaign, allowing characters from any world (as they will be transported to)...
Maybe I will make a Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/ Paladin 1/Bard 1/Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1 :) (This is a joke)
In seriousness I will be doing either a Pal 4/Bard 3 or Pal 5/Bard 2
Pal 5 / Bard 2. At 7th level, you need to have Extra Attack or 3rd level spells.
I'm leaning that way, but I think the 4/3 split is workable as well (as it gets me both second level bard spells, two 3rd level spell slots for smites, and dual wielding combat style, plus expertise). However, leaning towards the level 5 paladin as it makes it so that in one level, I get the saving throw bonus and if I decide I don't need it quite yet, I can grab the level 3 Bard for all the above.
I want to thank you for pointing me towards Glory. The more I think of his motivations the more I think it fits him. As I phrased it to the GM he is a Glory Paladin with delusions of devotion. Definitely fits the idea of someone who is striving to be a Hero because of legends of the past...