To start off, Hunter's Mark at level 1, combined with dual wielding, makes the ranger ridiculously powerful. With two shortswords and TWF fighting style, you make two attacks per round, for 2d6+Dex damage. Granted, we don't know much about warrior group classes, so maybe they have something this crazy at 1st level, but that's only the beginning.
You could take Magic Adept feat as your 1st level feat, and take the Hex spell. Now, as your Hunter's Mark does not require concentration, you can put it on the same target you Hexed, making it suffer 3d6+Dex damage, twice. At level 1. This potentially makes ranger a new attractive 1-level dip for martial multiclassing.
The price to pay for Hunter's Mark is one spell slot per hour, but given the sheer power with no concentration, it is safe to assume that Hunter's Mark will be always on.
But then, things get bleak. After getting another 1d8 once per round via subclass feature at level 3, and getting extra attack at level 5, ranger gets nothing. Rangers basically reach the peak of their damage potential at level 5. Other classes have another increase in power when they reach third tier of play at level 11 - cantirps grow in damage, fighters get their third attack, paladins get improved divine smite (+1d8 radiant damage on every attack), barbarians have a gradual scaling in rage damage bonus... Rangers get a downcasted spell. Volley at least used to be free, and what use is there in Conjure Barrage spell for a melee hunter?
What I suggest as a solution: Hunter's Mark, like Eldritch Blast, should become a class feature that scales with level. Foe Slayer turning 1d6 damage into 1d10 is a joke of a capstone. At early levels, Hunter's Mark should start with no damage bonus, then add 1d6 damage at level 3-5. This die/dice should grow like monk's martial arts or rogue's sneak attack with levels, jumping to two dice at level 11 and three dice at level 18, with an additional benefit to make it feel like a complete capstone feature at level 18, like ignoring resistances of a marked target or increasing the critical range to 19-20. Also, subclasses could add utility like Hunter's Lore to the mark, modifying it in different ways, like Beastmaster giving a marked target disadvantage on attacks against all targets other than ranger or their beast. Another benefit is that subclasses could get rid of "deal 1d8 damage once per round, but in a slightly different way" features and instead provide something more creative and flavorful. I'd also suggest that Hunter's Mark should be applied for free being a base class feature, but reapplying it to a new enemy while the old mark is still alive should have a price - once or PB times per short rest, or a spell slot.
While I am not concerned with it stacking with hex due to the bonus actions needed I basically agree with what you are saying. Have it basically an always on feature, have it scale with levels. That is the kind of thing with other features that keeps people playing ranger as opposed to dropping out level 5.
At the end of this playtest favored enemy is definitely getting moved to second level. The Hex Combo is cool but remember you will be burning through your spell slots to keep this damage up at low levels. Also you can’t switch them to a new target until the other one is dead. Better hope you don’t mark a skirmisher or a teleporter who runs away from combat.
At the end of this playtest favored enemy is definitely getting moved to second level. The Hex Combo is cool but remember you will be burning through your spell slots to keep this damage up at low levels. Also you can’t switch them to a new target until the other one is dead. Better hope you don’t mark a skirmisher or a teleporter who runs away from combat.
Well, I think that the target of Hunter's Mark running away is one of the points of the spell, making them easy to track. If the Hex is used to disadvantage their stealth, then they will be even easier to find.
To a certain extent, I agree with kamchatmonk's point, but the solution they propose seems a little too similar to sneak attack. I do think it somehow needs to be scaled back in power at first level, and increased later, but I might prefer extra riders or effects in place of just extra damage. With Ranger's extra attack at 5th level, it already gets a significant boost of the damage being dealt more times, but I would agree that the lack of a further boost in damage to it until the tiny increase at 18th level is a clear problem. Maybe if its upcasting is changed this would take care of the problem, but it probably would be better to remove it entirely as a spell and make it exclusively a class ability (which really in essence it already is).
Hex is definitely a bad match up, since both Hunter's Mark and Hex require bonus action. What Ranger does get is Conjure Animals (at level 9), Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure minor elemental (at level 13), conjure fey and conjure elemental (at level 17). While these are behind Druid they aren't useless for being concentration spells, you also get access to polymorph (level 13).
If you are worried about Ranger sometimes having a spare bonus action, at level 13, Ranger can turn invisible until the END of their next turn, there is no notes regarding attacks removing invisible which means against many targets you get advantage and they get disadvantage against you, this costs a spell slot, but nothing specifies a level, so presumably you can power this concentration free discount version of greater invisibility using 1st leveled spell slots.
If you go with ranged weapons, at level 9 you get Lightning arrow and Swift Quiver at level 17.
To a certain extent, I agree with kamchatmonk's point, but the solution they propose seems a little too similar to sneak attack. I do think it somehow needs to be scaled back in power at first level, and increased later, but I might prefer extra riders or effects in place of just extra damage. With Ranger's extra attack at 5th level, it already gets a significant boost of the damage being dealt more times, but I would agree that the lack of a further boost in damage to it until the tiny increase at 18th level is a clear problem. Maybe if its upcasting is changed this would take care of the problem, but it probably would be better to remove it entirely as a spell and make it exclusively a class ability (which really in essence it already is).
Similarity to sneak attack is intentional. In a way, rangers are in between frontline fighters and sneaky rogues, they are the commandos of DnD. As for extra effects, I suggested that it should be in subclass features (much like Hunter's Lore).
To a certain extent, I agree with kamchatmonk's point, but the solution they propose seems a little too similar to sneak attack. I do think it somehow needs to be scaled back in power at first level, and increased later, but I might prefer extra riders or effects in place of just extra damage. With Ranger's extra attack at 5th level, it already gets a significant boost of the damage being dealt more times, but I would agree that the lack of a further boost in damage to it until the tiny increase at 18th level is a clear problem. Maybe if its upcasting is changed this would take care of the problem, but it probably would be better to remove it entirely as a spell and make it exclusively a class ability (which really in essence it already is).
Similarity to sneak attack is intentional. In a way, rangers are in between frontline fighters and sneaky rogues, they are the commandos of DnD. As for extra effects, I suggested that it should be in subclass features (much like Hunter's Lore).
Favored Enemy becoming a tiered ability makes sense to me. I wouldnt remove hunters mark as a spell though. 1st- you gain hunter’s mark. It’s always prepared and it doesn’t count against your prepared spells.
3rd- you no longer have to concentrate on hunters mark. It ends at its duration, you die, or you choose to end it as a bonus action.
5th- you may use a search or study action against a marked creature as a bonus action.
7th- make hunters lore a part of this feature and give hunters a new lvl 6 feature
9th- you can cast hunters mark once at 1st level per long rest without expending a spell slot
11th- hunters mark increases to a d8
13th- You have advantage on any search or study actions you take against a marked creature
15th- you gain an additional free casting of HM 1st level so 2 per long rest
17th- increases to d10 foe slayer changes
19th- When a marked creature is more than 1000ft away you sense their direction but not their distance as long as they are on the same plane.
Foe slayer- When you hit a creature marked with Hunters Mark you deal additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier
6th Hunter feature- Defensive tactics- You have honed your reflexes and steeled your will against dangerous foes. You may use your reaction in the following ways.
When you are hit by an attack you may use your reaction to impose disadvantage on all other incoming attacks until the end of the current turn.
If your movement provokes an opportunity attack you may use your reaction to impose disadvantage on all opportunity attacks including the trigger against you until the end of the current turn.
If you fail a saving throw against being frightened you may use you your reaction to reroll the save. You must use the new roll.
On the foe slayer topic I like the idea of it getting pb to damage (since that consistently scales regardless of stats).
I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of utility and or damage scaling for hunters mark it would give good incentive for continuing ranger. Maybe even going to 1d4 at start and adding an extra d4 every 4-5 levels. The overlap with rogue I feel is fine but that is my opinion.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
While I agree with having Hunter's Mark as a class feature, I don't think Rangers get nothing in scaling matters because of the subclasses 11th (10th in One D&D) features.
Gloom Stalker can make another attack if one of their misses (which can happen very often). Horizon Walker deals 2d8 force damage (bonus equivalent to 2 attacks of Improved Smite), can make up to 4 attacks with TWF and can teleport. Fey Wanderer can use Summon Fey for free (once) e concentration free (you can summon an army of fey if you want to). Beast Master attack now 2 times with their beast (with the new TWF rules, they can make 5 attacks per turn). Drakewardens get a breath weapon (I know it's not that great). Even the old Hunter had the Multiattack feature, much better than the one presented in the last UA. I think only Swarmkeeper had minor damage upgrades (but they get more utility upgrades too) and the Monster Slayer that is just garbage damage wise.
And there is a lot of spells that add to this, like Swift Quiver, Steel Wind Strike and other ones given by subclasses and you see that Rangers are a pretty solid damage dealers in high levels.
Favored Enemy becoming a tiered ability makes sense to me. I wouldnt remove hunters mark as a spell though. 1st- you gain hunter’s mark. It’s always prepared and it doesn’t count against your prepared spells.
..
19th- When a marked creature is more than 1000ft away you sense their direction but not their distance as long as they are on the same plane.
Honestly, thinking about it, I think hunter's mark should be nerfed to 1d4, and then ranger class ups the damage more, because even at 1d4, it's dip potential is pretty strong with removing concentration. I'd like it if went 1d6 at level 3, 1d8 at level 9, 1d10 at level 13 and 1d12 at level 17. I'd then switch the level 11, so that you can ignore difficult terrain when moving towards your hunter's mark target.
While I agree with having Hunter's Mark as a class feature, I don't think Rangers get nothing in scaling matters because of the subclasses 11th (10th in One D&D) features.
Gloom Stalker can make another attack if one of their misses (which can happen very often). Horizon Walker deals 2d8 force damage (bonus equivalent to 2 attacks of Improved Smite), can make up to 4 attacks with TWF and can teleport. Fey Wanderer can use Summon Fey for free (once) e concentration free (you can summon an army of fey if you want to). Beast Master attack now 2 times with their beast (with the new TWF rules, they can make 5 attacks per turn). Drakewardens get a breath weapon (I know it's not that great). Even the old Hunter had the Multiattack feature, much better than the one presented in the last UA. I think only Swarmkeeper had minor damage upgrades (but they get more utility upgrades too) and the Monster Slayer that is just garbage damage wise.
And there is a lot of spells that add to this, like Swift Quiver, Steel Wind Strike and other ones given by subclasses and you see that Rangers are a pretty solid damage dealers in high levels.
True, however I only considered what we have in UA document. And as I explained, I don't think it's a good idea to waste a whole subclass feature on a mandatory "deal additional 1d8 damage" kind of thing. A tiered damage increase should better belong to a base class IMO, while subclasses should offer something more flavorful and interesting.
Rangers still scale with spells, especially since you have that open concentration slot and a semi-open bonus action.
Some of the best spells from Tasha's and XGTE aren't included yet, but there are still some good options. Lightning Arrow got an indirect buff and gives some spike damage to the class.
I'd like to see a better Hunter 10, but Hunter 11 was always kinda bad. Most ranger subclasses offer a better 11 feature, which could definitely translate over.
I concur spells are a huge part of ranger power at later levels. Some of the spell changes will affect how true this is. (For example conjure animals).
Rangers have always had power not be immediately apparent because of the way they do damage being spread across class, subclass, spells and secondary stat blocks. The damage does seem high at low levels but it is a defensive trade off.
A factor I had not been thinking about for Rangers is the ritual casting. There is a lot of flavorful spells they can now just cast as rituals to kind of make up for the fact that they lost Primal awareness form tasha's cauldron of everything.
A factor I had not been thinking about for Rangers is the ritual casting. There is a lot of flavorful spells they can now just cast as rituals to kind of make up for the fact that they lost Primal awareness form tasha's cauldron of everything.
True, have not truly thought that out myself. Especially with their spells being changeable on rest.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The ritual list is ok And it becomes alot more nessicary Without primal or primeval awareness. Also the fact that alot more spellslots will be used because both the new favored enemy and vanish feed off of slots.
However the list isn't a big one. But comune with nature comes online at such a bad level. And most of them are better for druids to take.
Locate creatures or plants is usually served better by skill checks. same with animal friendship
Still beast sense, animal messenger are nice to be free.
I am not sure how the new rules of preparing will affect spell overlap with druids and wizards. In the end I am not sure how big a role in the new dynamics will effect active play.
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To start off, Hunter's Mark at level 1, combined with dual wielding, makes the ranger ridiculously powerful. With two shortswords and TWF fighting style, you make two attacks per round, for 2d6+Dex damage. Granted, we don't know much about warrior group classes, so maybe they have something this crazy at 1st level, but that's only the beginning.
You could take Magic Adept feat as your 1st level feat, and take the Hex spell. Now, as your Hunter's Mark does not require concentration, you can put it on the same target you Hexed, making it suffer 3d6+Dex damage, twice. At level 1. This potentially makes ranger a new attractive 1-level dip for martial multiclassing.
The price to pay for Hunter's Mark is one spell slot per hour, but given the sheer power with no concentration, it is safe to assume that Hunter's Mark will be always on.
But then, things get bleak. After getting another 1d8 once per round via subclass feature at level 3, and getting extra attack at level 5, ranger gets nothing. Rangers basically reach the peak of their damage potential at level 5. Other classes have another increase in power when they reach third tier of play at level 11 - cantirps grow in damage, fighters get their third attack, paladins get improved divine smite (+1d8 radiant damage on every attack), barbarians have a gradual scaling in rage damage bonus... Rangers get a downcasted spell. Volley at least used to be free, and what use is there in Conjure Barrage spell for a melee hunter?
What I suggest as a solution: Hunter's Mark, like Eldritch Blast, should become a class feature that scales with level. Foe Slayer turning 1d6 damage into 1d10 is a joke of a capstone. At early levels, Hunter's Mark should start with no damage bonus, then add 1d6 damage at level 3-5. This die/dice should grow like monk's martial arts or rogue's sneak attack with levels, jumping to two dice at level 11 and three dice at level 18, with an additional benefit to make it feel like a complete capstone feature at level 18, like ignoring resistances of a marked target or increasing the critical range to 19-20. Also, subclasses could add utility like Hunter's Lore to the mark, modifying it in different ways, like Beastmaster giving a marked target disadvantage on attacks against all targets other than ranger or their beast. Another benefit is that subclasses could get rid of "deal 1d8 damage once per round, but in a slightly different way" features and instead provide something more creative and flavorful. I'd also suggest that Hunter's Mark should be applied for free being a base class feature, but reapplying it to a new enemy while the old mark is still alive should have a price - once or PB times per short rest, or a spell slot.
While I am not concerned with it stacking with hex due to the bonus actions needed I basically agree with what you are saying. Have it basically an always on feature, have it scale with levels. That is the kind of thing with other features that keeps people playing ranger as opposed to dropping out level 5.
At the end of this playtest favored enemy is definitely getting moved to second level. The Hex Combo is cool but remember you will be burning through your spell slots to keep this damage up at low levels. Also you can’t switch them to a new target until the other one is dead. Better hope you don’t mark a skirmisher or a teleporter who runs away from combat.
Well, I think that the target of Hunter's Mark running away is one of the points of the spell, making them easy to track. If the Hex is used to disadvantage their stealth, then they will be even easier to find.
To a certain extent, I agree with kamchatmonk's point, but the solution they propose seems a little too similar to sneak attack. I do think it somehow needs to be scaled back in power at first level, and increased later, but I might prefer extra riders or effects in place of just extra damage. With Ranger's extra attack at 5th level, it already gets a significant boost of the damage being dealt more times, but I would agree that the lack of a further boost in damage to it until the tiny increase at 18th level is a clear problem. Maybe if its upcasting is changed this would take care of the problem, but it probably would be better to remove it entirely as a spell and make it exclusively a class ability (which really in essence it already is).
Hex is definitely a bad match up, since both Hunter's Mark and Hex require bonus action. What Ranger does get is Conjure Animals (at level 9), Conjure Woodland Beings and Conjure minor elemental (at level 13), conjure fey and conjure elemental (at level 17). While these are behind Druid they aren't useless for being concentration spells, you also get access to polymorph (level 13).
If you are worried about Ranger sometimes having a spare bonus action, at level 13, Ranger can turn invisible until the END of their next turn, there is no notes regarding attacks removing invisible which means against many targets you get advantage and they get disadvantage against you, this costs a spell slot, but nothing specifies a level, so presumably you can power this concentration free discount version of greater invisibility using 1st leveled spell slots.
If you go with ranged weapons, at level 9 you get Lightning arrow and Swift Quiver at level 17.
Similarity to sneak attack is intentional. In a way, rangers are in between frontline fighters and sneaky rogues, they are the commandos of DnD. As for extra effects, I suggested that it should be in subclass features (much like Hunter's Lore).
So question... If Hunter's Mark is a primal spell, will Druids have access? That could be an interesting concept...
They do, but they have better spells to concentrate on. Just like how Wizard and Sorcerer are getting Hex now.
Oh, duh!
Favored Enemy becoming a tiered ability makes sense to me. I wouldnt remove hunters mark as a spell though.
1st- you gain hunter’s mark. It’s always prepared and it doesn’t count against your prepared spells.
3rd- you no longer have to concentrate on hunters mark. It ends at its duration, you die, or you choose to end it as a bonus action.
5th- you may use a search or study action against a marked creature as a bonus action.
7th- make hunters lore a part of this feature and give hunters a new lvl 6 feature
9th- you can cast hunters mark once at 1st level per long rest without expending a spell slot
11th- hunters mark increases to a d8
13th- You have advantage on any search or study actions you take against a marked creature
15th- you gain an additional free casting of HM 1st level so 2 per long rest
17th- increases to d10 foe slayer changes
19th- When a marked creature is more than 1000ft away you sense their direction but not their distance as long as they are on the same plane.
Foe slayer- When you hit a creature marked with Hunters Mark you deal additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier
6th Hunter feature- Defensive tactics- You have honed your reflexes and steeled your will against dangerous foes. You may use your reaction in the following ways.
On the foe slayer topic I like the idea of it getting pb to damage (since that consistently scales regardless of stats).
I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of utility and or damage scaling for hunters mark it would give good incentive for continuing ranger. Maybe even going to 1d4 at start and adding an extra d4 every 4-5 levels. The overlap with rogue I feel is fine but that is my opinion.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Hunters Mark dip with my four Monk attacks is tasty.
While I agree with having Hunter's Mark as a class feature, I don't think Rangers get nothing in scaling matters because of the subclasses 11th (10th in One D&D) features.
Gloom Stalker can make another attack if one of their misses (which can happen very often). Horizon Walker deals 2d8 force damage (bonus equivalent to 2 attacks of Improved Smite), can make up to 4 attacks with TWF and can teleport. Fey Wanderer can use Summon Fey for free (once) e concentration free (you can summon an army of fey if you want to). Beast Master attack now 2 times with their beast (with the new TWF rules, they can make 5 attacks per turn). Drakewardens get a breath weapon (I know it's not that great). Even the old Hunter had the Multiattack feature, much better than the one presented in the last UA. I think only Swarmkeeper had minor damage upgrades (but they get more utility upgrades too) and the Monster Slayer that is just garbage damage wise.
And there is a lot of spells that add to this, like Swift Quiver, Steel Wind Strike and other ones given by subclasses and you see that Rangers are a pretty solid damage dealers in high levels.
Honestly, thinking about it, I think hunter's mark should be nerfed to 1d4, and then ranger class ups the damage more, because even at 1d4, it's dip potential is pretty strong with removing concentration. I'd like it if went 1d6 at level 3, 1d8 at level 9, 1d10 at level 13 and 1d12 at level 17. I'd then switch the level 11, so that you can ignore difficult terrain when moving towards your hunter's mark target.
True, however I only considered what we have in UA document. And as I explained, I don't think it's a good idea to waste a whole subclass feature on a mandatory "deal additional 1d8 damage" kind of thing. A tiered damage increase should better belong to a base class IMO, while subclasses should offer something more flavorful and interesting.
Rangers still scale with spells, especially since you have that open concentration slot and a semi-open bonus action.
Some of the best spells from Tasha's and XGTE aren't included yet, but there are still some good options. Lightning Arrow got an indirect buff and gives some spike damage to the class.
I'd like to see a better Hunter 10, but Hunter 11 was always kinda bad. Most ranger subclasses offer a better 11 feature, which could definitely translate over.
I concur spells are a huge part of ranger power at later levels. Some of the spell changes will affect how true this is. (For example conjure animals).
Rangers have always had power not be immediately apparent because of the way they do damage being spread across class, subclass, spells and secondary stat blocks. The damage does seem high at low levels but it is a defensive trade off.
A factor I had not been thinking about for Rangers is the ritual casting. There is a lot of flavorful spells they can now just cast as rituals to kind of make up for the fact that they lost Primal awareness form tasha's cauldron of everything.
True, have not truly thought that out myself. Especially with their spells being changeable on rest.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The ritual list is ok And it becomes alot more nessicary Without primal or primeval awareness. Also the fact that alot more spellslots will be used because both the new favored enemy and vanish feed off of slots.
However the list isn't a big one. But comune with nature comes online at such a bad level. And most of them are better for druids to take.
Locate creatures or plants is usually served better by skill checks. same with animal friendship
Still beast sense, animal messenger are nice to be free.
I am not sure how the new rules of preparing will affect spell overlap with druids and wizards. In the end I am not sure how big a role in the new dynamics will effect active play.