What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
The problem is the thing that allows you to build for RP also allows you to build for min/max.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
The problem is the thing that allows you to build for RP also allows you to build for min/max.
Other than maybe quicken double blast, which no one really complains about, what kind of min/maxing are you talking about that you feel like is so powerful that it needs to be removed from the game?
Even that requires 1 round to set up, and needs cant be done when you need to move hex, and burns limited resources that also take a spell slot and a bonus action to replenish.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
The problem is the thing that allows you to build for RP also allows you to build for min/max.
Other than maybe quicken double blast, which no one really complains about, what kind of min/maxing are you talking about that you feel like is so powerful that it needs to be removed from the game?
Even that requires 1 round to set up, and needs cant be done when you need to move hex, and burns limited resources that also take a spell slot and a bonus action to replenish.
Why did you start your argument by trying to omit the biggest offender. Lol.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
The problem is the thing that allows you to build for RP also allows you to build for min/max.
Other than maybe quicken double blast, which no one really complains about, what kind of min/maxing are you talking about that you feel like is so powerful that it needs to be removed from the game?
Even that requires 1 round to set up, and needs cant be done when you need to move hex, and burns limited resources that also take a spell slot and a bonus action to replenish.
Why did you start your argument by trying to omit the biggest offender. Lol.
Because other than that one instance I don't think there is any other instance where it is at all considered to be any concern at all. My whole point is that if that is the biggest offender as you say, it's not something that is so strong that it needs to be changed.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
Except it means that all the flavour flies out the window as soon as combat starts, even now if you've got min-maxers in your party you can feel the homogenization of play around a handful of always-good strategies : Hex+EB+AB+Repelling, Healing Word, Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon, Find Steed/Find Greater Steed, PAM + GWM nearly every optimizer table will have at least one character with those abilities often more than one.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
Getting Hex, 4 rays of Eldritch Blast and Agonizing blast from 2 levels of of Warlock is like getting 4 attacks per turn from 2 levels of fighter; it was definitely way too much. Personally, I don't think Hex needed to be changed, it feels more like a feature to try and force people to use top tier spell slots for Hex, which is pointless and actually harms hex more than it helps, since it actually means you get more from Hex by multiclassing it with a full caster, since you'll get a level 5 spell slot quicker. For multi-classing with half-casters, it means you'd get 5th tier hex around the same time; so it's only hitting non-casters, which generally weren't the classes multi-classing with Warlock to begin with.
The Eldritch blast change is good, for the reason I put above, getting 4 attacks per turn from fighter for a mere 2 level investment sounds ridiculous, getting 4 rays of Eldritch Blast from 2 levels of Warlock is very comparable too that. With the exception of Warlock, cantrips are usually a fallback to preserve spell slots or because you have exhausted spell slots and yet still be useful; however for Warlock it's their main class feature, so it's crazy to get their main class feature at full power with a very small investment.
In terms of Multi-classing, Pact of the Blade makes a lot of potential MAD builds SAD, so it'll definitely be abused the same way as it was with Hexblade in 5E, more so Waradin, but now you can do it with Ranger, Cleric and Druid too, since Pact of the Blade can use either Charisma or Wisdom. Admittedly with Primal Magic, Shillelagh already exists for quarterstaffs and clubs... but Pact Weapon works with a vast array of more weapons and enchanted weapons, meaning it scales with the rest of the party depending on the type of weapons that the DM hands out, so if you get a Longsword +2 or whatever, you can use that.
Additionally, multi-classing with Wizard and Artificer is also easier now since you can pick Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome and choose Intelligence. If anything, Warlock is now even easier to multiclass. Heck, you can even multi-class a single level of Warlock as a Wizard to pick up book of shadows so that you can cast Shillelagh using Intelligence, you get medium armour proficiency, a few extra first level spell choices, and the ability to use basically any 1st level ritual with a recast of the book of shadows. For delay spell progression by a single level, it has a lot of boons to more classes than it did in 5E when it was mostly just the Charisma classes.
I approve of locking eldritch blast behind warlock levels. Feels like too much of an iconic ability to get the full power through just a few levels. I do not however like the new hex. I always though hex and hunters mark were interesting picks for martials if they wanted to dip a lil bit into magic through feats or multiclassing. Making Hex not scale with number of attacks kills that for me which I think is a darn shame. Generally Im not a fan of low level spells becoming useless at later levels and sadly new hex is one of those spells.
@Bodanger Everyone else has already articulated the problem with the 1 and 2 level warlock dip. I don’t think I have anything to add.
Other than Hexblade, how is a 1 or 2 level warlock dip a problem in terms of balance? I literally have never heard of anything other than hexblade being pointed to as any kind of issue, and despite replying multiple times you have yet to make an actual point or arguement as to why EB+hex should be considered a balance problem
Even the biggest possible instance of this (Quicken +EB+hex) is tempered by needing bonus actions, set up, burning limited resources, and the trade off of higher level spell slots and spells in order to gain access to the combo.
Warlocks aren't the dip "class" hexblade specifically is the dip subclass.
This is because it gives bards/sorc armor and shields, makes paladins SAD, give them access to the shield spell, and the subclass gives hexblades curse.
If you think people are just dipping all kinds of warlocks to get eldrich blast + hex, and also think that this somehow creates a balance issue, I guess I'd have to ask how is hex + EB a balance issue?
+1D6 (patron themed damage or force by default) when successfully make a hit roll (attack / Spell)
Disadvantage on first saving throw target makes per round. ----- I have used and seen disadvantage on ability check and target was not making any ability checks. Used mostly out of combat.
Only works on Blade pact weapons and spells with Warlock tag.
I'm fine with how eldritch blast ended up, but hex got done wrong. I like some of the effects in that it helps fire bolt out just as much as eldritch blast, that is cool. But you need to upcast it to get the 3d6, when before the 1d6 per hit got you there on its own as a level 1 spell. If warlocks were still pact magic, not a big deal, as half casters who get that super slow, screw that.
Personally keep eldritch blast as is. Return hex to how it was with warlocks not needing to concentrate on it at warlock level 5, i don't think its needed but maybe add some language that it does not work with hunters mark. Add a invocation that lets you turn your other single target ranged attack cantrips into eldritch blast variants, so instead of increasing by a die, they get another bolt, and eldrtich blast invocations work with them. Now it still works equally with all attack cantrips if you want it, and hex does not suck.
What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The "Warlock dip" gets abused to heck & back. Letting people do up to 4d10+20 Force damage on a turn with just two levels of Warlock is way too much. Changing the way EB scales was the right move.
@Bodanger Everyone else has already articulated the problem with the 1 and 2 level warlock dip. I don’t think I have anything to add.
Other than Hexblade, how is a 1 or 2 level warlock dip a problem in terms of balance? I literally have never heard of anything other than hexblade being pointed to as any kind of issue, and despite replying multiple times you have yet to make an actual point or arguement as to why EB+hex should be considered a balance problem
Even the biggest possible instance of this (Quicken +EB+hex) is tempered by needing bonus actions, set up, burning limited resources, and the trade off of higher level spell slots and spells in order to gain access to the combo.
Even without the Hexblade the sorlock is is kind of broken. 2 level dip into warlock they get eldritch blast and short rest sorcery points from pact magic to fuel additional metamagics. How do you consider that tempered when after you hex and eb round one, Quicken spell eldritch blast or some other multi attack spell like scorching ray, then eldritch blast round two onward. Paladin can 2 level dip warlock other than hexblade just to get a ranged option from eldritch blast. Bard as well. Eldritch blast agonizing blast is really strong. Then add hex and it really really strong. Then add it to a true full caster like sorcerer or bard and now they can be far more flexible with spell choice for out of combat. The most egregious thing I’ve done is make a fighter with a 2 level dip in warlock who only really use eldritch blast and hex in combat. It was for one shot so a Cha based fighter seemed fun, but it’s bad that he was so easily good. And no he wasn’t a Hexblade but that would have made him even better.
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What I don't like about the new interaction is that it kills a lot of options for muticlassing. I don't mean powergaming or optimizing, I mean having the combo of EB+hex+Agonizing blast that allows you to do decent damage with just 2 levels of warlock that also scales with tiers of play.
This combo allows you be decent in combat, and then use all other levels/resources etc to build a character strictly for flavor/rp.
The only instance where the hex 1d6 on hit could at all even be considered to be stronger than average is if you already have the hex on a target and then use quicken spell. To do this you need to be level 5 and even then you can only do it once before running out of sorc points.
Unless they are doing this to prevent something else mechanically that is occurring because of other changes, I feel like this is just taking away fun multiclass options that having nothing to do with the actual warlock multiclass issue, Hexblade dips.
The problem is the thing that allows you to build for RP also allows you to build for min/max.
Other than maybe quicken double blast, which no one really complains about, what kind of min/maxing are you talking about that you feel like is so powerful that it needs to be removed from the game?
Even that requires 1 round to set up, and needs cant be done when you need to move hex, and burns limited resources that also take a spell slot and a bonus action to replenish.
Why did you start your argument by trying to omit the biggest offender. Lol.
Because other than that one instance I don't think there is any other instance where it is at all considered to be any concern at all. My whole point is that if that is the biggest offender as you say, it's not something that is so strong that it needs to be changed.
Thank god.
What, is multi classing a bad thing now?
It is when Warlocks are known as "the dip class".
Except it means that all the flavour flies out the window as soon as combat starts, even now if you've got min-maxers in your party you can feel the homogenization of play around a handful of always-good strategies : Hex+EB+AB+Repelling, Healing Word, Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon, Find Steed/Find Greater Steed, PAM + GWM nearly every optimizer table will have at least one character with those abilities often more than one.
Getting Hex, 4 rays of Eldritch Blast and Agonizing blast from 2 levels of of Warlock is like getting 4 attacks per turn from 2 levels of fighter; it was definitely way too much. Personally, I don't think Hex needed to be changed, it feels more like a feature to try and force people to use top tier spell slots for Hex, which is pointless and actually harms hex more than it helps, since it actually means you get more from Hex by multiclassing it with a full caster, since you'll get a level 5 spell slot quicker. For multi-classing with half-casters, it means you'd get 5th tier hex around the same time; so it's only hitting non-casters, which generally weren't the classes multi-classing with Warlock to begin with.
The Eldritch blast change is good, for the reason I put above, getting 4 attacks per turn from fighter for a mere 2 level investment sounds ridiculous, getting 4 rays of Eldritch Blast from 2 levels of Warlock is very comparable too that. With the exception of Warlock, cantrips are usually a fallback to preserve spell slots or because you have exhausted spell slots and yet still be useful; however for Warlock it's their main class feature, so it's crazy to get their main class feature at full power with a very small investment.
In terms of Multi-classing, Pact of the Blade makes a lot of potential MAD builds SAD, so it'll definitely be abused the same way as it was with Hexblade in 5E, more so Waradin, but now you can do it with Ranger, Cleric and Druid too, since Pact of the Blade can use either Charisma or Wisdom. Admittedly with Primal Magic, Shillelagh already exists for quarterstaffs and clubs... but Pact Weapon works with a vast array of more weapons and enchanted weapons, meaning it scales with the rest of the party depending on the type of weapons that the DM hands out, so if you get a Longsword +2 or whatever, you can use that.
Additionally, multi-classing with Wizard and Artificer is also easier now since you can pick Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome and choose Intelligence. If anything, Warlock is now even easier to multiclass. Heck, you can even multi-class a single level of Warlock as a Wizard to pick up book of shadows so that you can cast Shillelagh using Intelligence, you get medium armour proficiency, a few extra first level spell choices, and the ability to use basically any 1st level ritual with a recast of the book of shadows. For delay spell progression by a single level, it has a lot of boons to more classes than it did in 5E when it was mostly just the Charisma classes.
Being able to dip 2 levels on literally any build with Charisma and get such a competitive blasting option was a bad thing. EB+Hex needed the nerf.
I approve of locking eldritch blast behind warlock levels. Feels like too much of an iconic ability to get the full power through just a few levels. I do not however like the new hex. I always though hex and hunters mark were interesting picks for martials if they wanted to dip a lil bit into magic through feats or multiclassing. Making Hex not scale with number of attacks kills that for me which I think is a darn shame. Generally Im not a fan of low level spells becoming useless at later levels and sadly new hex is one of those spells.
@Bodanger Everyone else has already articulated the problem with the 1 and 2 level warlock dip. I don’t think I have anything to add.
Other than Hexblade, how is a 1 or 2 level warlock dip a problem in terms of balance? I literally have never heard of anything other than hexblade being pointed to as any kind of issue, and despite replying multiple times you have yet to make an actual point or arguement as to why EB+hex should be considered a balance problem
Even the biggest possible instance of this (Quicken +EB+hex) is tempered by needing bonus actions, set up, burning limited resources, and the trade off of higher level spell slots and spells in order to gain access to the combo.
Warlocks aren't the dip "class" hexblade specifically is the dip subclass.
This is because it gives bards/sorc armor and shields, makes paladins SAD, give them access to the shield spell, and the subclass gives hexblades curse.
If you think people are just dipping all kinds of warlocks to get eldrich blast + hex, and also think that this somehow creates a balance issue, I guess I'd have to ask how is hex + EB a balance issue?
My idea for a fix.
HEX
No Concertation
+1D6 (patron themed damage or force by default) when successfully make a hit roll (attack / Spell)
Disadvantage on first saving throw target makes per round. ----- I have used and seen disadvantage on ability check and target was not making any ability checks. Used mostly out of combat.
Only works on Blade pact weapons and spells with Warlock tag.
Maybe NOT make is a spell and just a feature?
I'm fine with how eldritch blast ended up, but hex got done wrong. I like some of the effects in that it helps fire bolt out just as much as eldritch blast, that is cool. But you need to upcast it to get the 3d6, when before the 1d6 per hit got you there on its own as a level 1 spell. If warlocks were still pact magic, not a big deal, as half casters who get that super slow, screw that.
Personally keep eldritch blast as is. Return hex to how it was with warlocks not needing to concentrate on it at warlock level 5, i don't think its needed but maybe add some language that it does not work with hunters mark. Add a invocation that lets you turn your other single target ranged attack cantrips into eldritch blast variants, so instead of increasing by a die, they get another bolt, and eldrtich blast invocations work with them. Now it still works equally with all attack cantrips if you want it, and hex does not suck.
Also you now have access to the arcane list and if you are maintaining hex, you cannot cast any other concentration spells.
The "Warlock dip" gets abused to heck & back. Letting people do up to 4d10+20 Force damage on a turn with just two levels of Warlock is way too much. Changing the way EB scales was the right move.
Even without the Hexblade the sorlock is is kind of broken. 2 level dip into warlock they get eldritch blast and short rest sorcery points from pact magic to fuel additional metamagics. How do you consider that tempered when after you hex and eb round one, Quicken spell eldritch blast or some other multi attack spell like scorching ray, then eldritch blast round two onward. Paladin can 2 level dip warlock other than hexblade just to get a ranged option from eldritch blast. Bard as well. Eldritch blast agonizing blast is really strong. Then add hex and it really really strong. Then add it to a true full caster like sorcerer or bard and now they can be far more flexible with spell choice for out of combat. The most egregious thing I’ve done is make a fighter with a 2 level dip in warlock who only really use eldritch blast and hex in combat. It was for one shot so a Cha based fighter seemed fun, but it’s bad that he was so easily good. And no he wasn’t a Hexblade but that would have made him even better.