So I thought of a improvement system system for Wildshape. I saw someone suggest something similar to invocations. I also saw someone suggest a grab bag of abilities when you Wildshape. I decided the best thing was to roll those three ideas into one. Since history and tradition is important to the guys at WotC I suggest just calling it Wild Shape improvement like it was called in 5e. It would completely replace might of the land. The base Wildshape forms stat blocks would work as they are written in the UA except for the climb speed for land and the speed for aquatic. Both of those would go away. Starting at 5th level Wildshape improvement would allow you to pick a number of improvements equal to your proficiency bonus anytime you change into a wildshape form. Some improvements can be taken more than once but no more than three times and some could be locked behind higher Druid levels. What I need help with is coming up with a good list of improvements. I thought about going through the monster manual and picking out unique beast abilities,but felt it would be more fun as a discussion.
East start:
Climber- +20ft climb speed (can take more than once)
Faster- +10ft to all movement speeds (can be taken more than once)
Runner- +20 ft speed (can be taken more than once) oddly this should be land, walk, or run speed but they chose to call it just speed and specify other movement types unique names.
Savage- Your attack attack die for beastial strike increases by 1 die size. d4 to d6, d6 to d8, or d8 to d10. (Can only be taken once requires Druid level 10)
Nocturnal- +20ft darkvision (can be taken more than once)
Burrower- +10 Burrow speed through soft earth (can be taken more than once)
Venom- your bestial strike does poison damage and target hit with it must make a Con save vs your spell save DC or be poisoned.
Please give me more suggestions. Or just tell me how great or terrible you think this idea is. Either way it get us talking about it and that helps align our survey answers so we get the changes we are hoping for to improve the game.
not sure if it's the fix I'd go for but I can add a few suggestions.
Evoker- Can cast any of your prepared druid cantrips as a bonus action while wild shaped, usable a number of times per wild shape that is equal to amount of times taken. (can be taken multiple times)
Magical- Attacks count as magical for the purposes of bypassing resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks (can only be taken once)
Resilient- Gain 1AC while wild shaped and grants 10 temporary HP when using a wild shape charge (can be taken more than once to increase by AC and Temp HP)
Grappler- Once per turn, can attempt to grapple when hitting with a bestial strike as an Animal of the Land or Animal of the Sea. While Grappling a creature in this manor, can only target this creature with bestial strikes as an action, else the grappled condition ends, the condition ends additionally ends if your wild shape ends (can only be taken once).
I wonder if this is too overwhelming of a feature... especially if the Druid has to decide on each wild shape what they're going to spend their points on.
I feel like the solution might be to take a look at the most popular Wild Shape choices in the game right now and offer Templates based on each one. Like, maybe some that's just called "Beast of Burden", which mostly just replicates being a horse to give a means to carry groups of players or cover distance quickly. Maybe a "Venomous Beast" with climbing abilities and a poison attack, an "Armored Beast" that grants generous Temp HP and a boost to AC. I feel like there's a relatively small pool of Beasts that Druid Players are bemoaning losing access to with this new version, and I think it would simplify things to just find what functions those beasts fulfill and try to replicate them.
I do feel that, for me at least, the idea of hyper-customizable Wild Shapes with a point-buy system to maintain balance would indeed be the ideal. But I'm worried that it doesn't address the problem of Druids being difficult to play because of how complex Wild Shape can be.
I wonder if this is too overwhelming of a feature... especially if the Druid has to decide on each wild shape what they're going to spend their points on.
I feel like the solution might be to take a look at the most popular Wild Shape choices in the game right now and offer Templates based on each one. Like, maybe some that's just called "Beast of Burden", which mostly just replicates being a horse to give a means to carry groups of players or cover distance quickly. Maybe a "Venomous Beast" with climbing abilities and a poison attack, an "Armored Beast" that grants generous Temp HP and a boost to AC. I feel like there's a relatively small pool of Beasts that Druid Players are bemoaning losing access to with this new version, and I think it would simplify things to just find what functions those beasts fulfill and try to replicate them.
I do feel that, for me at least, the idea of hyper-customizable Wild Shapes with a point-buy system to maintain balance would indeed be the ideal. But I'm worried that it doesn't address the problem of Druids being difficult to play because of how complex Wild Shape can be.
What’s the difference from having 2-6 improvement options to choose each time you Wildshape or having to look through a bunch of templates to find the one with the specific unique options you want. I would argue it’s better and easier to let the players freely choose the options. A bunch of templates takes us back to one of the problems they are trying to solve. That some templates will likely be objectively better than others and get far more use. But I do see how my system also increases complexity thus also being one of the problems they wanted to solve. I don’t think there is a way to have no complexity and still allow Wildshape to give some of the unique animal abilities it had in 5e. I feel this system allows all the possibilities to be presented in the class description, saves you from looking at multiple stat blocks, and gives you the freedom to be the beast you need in any situation (having the mechanics you need to fulfill the stat block). I could be wrong which is why I started this Topic to discuss it. Thank you for being a part of the discussion.
not sure if it's the fix I'd go for but I can add a few suggestions.
Evoker- Can cast any of your prepared druid cantrips as a bonus action while wild shaped, usable a number of times per wild shape that is equal to amount of times taken. (can be taken multiple times)
Magical- Attacks count as magical for the purposes of bypassing resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks (can only be taken once)
Resilient- Gain 1AC while wild shaped and grants 10 temporary HP when using a wild shape charge (can be taken more than once to increase by AC and Temp HP)
Grappler- Once per turn, can attempt to grapple when hitting with a bestial strike as an Animal of the Land or Animal of the Sea. While Grappling a creature in this manor, can only target this creature with bestial strikes as an action, else the grappled condition ends, the condition ends additionally ends if your wild shape ends (can only be taken once).
I really like evoker, but feel the limitation on number of uses makes it too weak. It also gives you another number to track which might make it too complex. But just allowing unlimited castings of cantrips in WS is definitely too strong. I love the concept, but it would take a moment to balance complexity and power.
Magical probably steps on the Moon Druid’s toes too much.
Resilient is great I would drop the temp hp to 5, but that’s because I believe at least moon will be getting temp hp as part of its Wildshape by the time this playtest is over.
Grappler should work for all forms as long as your size is no more than one size smaller than your target.
Yeah, I honestly do think that your solution is ultimately "better", but I'm trying to think of what would appeal more to a brand-new player, and also what would slow down gameplay at the table the least. I play with some players who get kind of overwhelmed with choice sometimes, so I can see a panicking Druid struggling to decide which features they want for the Wildshape form at each transformation, and I also feel that most players will eventually create their own templates anyway and ultimately have 3 or 4 default forms that they'll build and use 99% of the time.
So here's my take on the concept... instead of having "Beast of Land/Sea/Sky", the Druid instead gets a variety of Beast Templates, and they decide when wild shaping whether they have a Walk Speed, a Swim Speed, or a Flying Speed (once the additional movement options are unlocked). To avoid having everyone just play as flying creatures at all times, there would have to be some benefit to just taking Walk Speed... maybe Temp HP equal to your Druid level? Druids also decide their Size, and most beast types cannot be Tiny.
Then right at level 1 you get access to... let's say 3 Beast types:
"Beast of Burden" - Grants the Powerful Build feature to increase carry capacity, built in +10 to movement speed. 1 Attack per turn... give them some kind of Trample feature where they deal additional damage if they move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attacking
"Armored Beast" - AC boost to at least 18, Big bucket of temp HP... maybe 2x Druid level? 1 Attack as well, tack on some kind of shove feature to their attacks.
"Scouting Beast" - Able to become tiny. Proficiency in Stealth and Perception. Attacks always deal only 1 damage. If the Druid takes any damage while in this form they revert to their normal form. Darkvision.
Those three, to me, cover some of the unique functions that people feel like they're losing in One D&D, but still isn't so many that a new player will get confused. Still needs a lot of work, but that sells the basic idea. I also think each Beast type should include a list of example creatures that would fit into those categories as inspiration to help guide players.
From there, at 5th level you gain choose to Wildshape into any of those forms, but now you have the option of doing so with a swim speed. In addition, you gain access to a few more Beast Types... I think 2 will do...
"Hunter Beast" - Gains Pack Tactics and gets access to Extra Attack. Give proficiency in Perception and Survival in this form, along with Darkvision. Higher AC than the Beast of Burden.
"Venomous Beast" - Gains a Climb Speed and attacks deal Poison Damage and have the potential to poison enemies. Not sure if the ability to output the poisoned condition on every attack is too potent... maybe give them the option to spend a spell slot as a sort of "smite" after landing an attack to deal big bursts of poison damage and leave enemies poisoned for up to a minute. Gets access to Tremorsense.
Finally at 9th level you get the option to Wildshape into Beasts with a Flying Speed. I'm struggling a bit to think of additional beast archetypes, but here we go...
"Burrowing Beast" - Gain a Burrow Speed and Darkvision... maybe tremorsense as well?. Proficiency with Stealth. Let's go ahead and give this one Extra Attack as well.
"Sightless beast" - More utility than anything else, this form gains Blindsight and has boosted passive perception.
Anyway, that just gives you a vague idea of what I think will give players the greater majority of the features they miss from the 5e Druid Wildshape, while still leaning in on the OneD&D system's attempt to simplify things. Ultimately it's only 4 more beast types than the UA already proposes, and they all definitely need a lot more work than I just put into it... but I think this makes Druids more manageable without completely killing the creative potential of the class, as I feel the current UA does.
That all said... I also would rather just have these sort of "Invocation"-style mods to pick and choose from, but I'm pretty comfortable with micromanaging that aspect of gameplay, and I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, and it also seems to be something that OneD&D is actively trying to avoid. Saying that, I'm kinda scared to see what they do to Warlocks when they release their UA...
I would just simply add a 4th option that still allows you to use other statblocks in a similar(but adjusted) manner as the phb or maybe a dumbed down polymorph. It probably would shut off some of the current features but could still be worth the trade. So new players would see beast of land/sea/sky and limited stat block pick. Sounds simple to me.
Frankly having both tashas and phb worked well for rangers and really got the ranger appeal up for most playstyles.
It's for the poison option usually it's the riders that make poison options appealing. Non-lethal ko, disadvantage, sometimes just better damage ect. Just adding poison is not enough.
Yeah, I honestly do think that your solution is ultimately "better", but I'm trying to think of what would appeal more to a brand-new player, and also what would slow down gameplay at the table the least. I play with some players who get kind of overwhelmed with choice sometimes, so I can see a panicking Druid struggling to decide which features they want for the Wildshape form at each transformation, and I also feel that most players will eventually create their own templates anyway and ultimately have 3 or 4 default forms that they'll build and use 99% of the time.
So here's my take on the concept... instead of having "Beast of Land/Sea/Sky", the Druid instead gets a variety of Beast Templates, and they decide when wild shaping whether they have a Walk Speed, a Swim Speed, or a Flying Speed (once the additional movement options are unlocked). To avoid having everyone just play as flying creatures at all times, there would have to be some benefit to just taking Walk Speed... maybe Temp HP equal to your Druid level? Druids also decide their Size, and most beast types cannot be Tiny.
Then right at level 1 you get access to... let's say 3 Beast types:
"Beast of Burden" - Grants the Powerful Build feature to increase carry capacity, built in +10 to movement speed. 1 Attack per turn... give them some kind of Trample feature where they deal additional damage if they move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attacking
"Armored Beast" - AC boost to at least 18, Big bucket of temp HP... maybe 2x Druid level? 1 Attack as well, tack on some kind of shove feature to their attacks.
"Scouting Beast" - Able to become tiny. Proficiency in Stealth and Perception. Attacks always deal only 1 damage. If the Druid takes any damage while in this form they revert to their normal form. Darkvision.
Those three, to me, cover some of the unique functions that people feel like they're losing in One D&D, but still isn't so many that a new player will get confused. Still needs a lot of work, but that sells the basic idea. I also think each Beast type should include a list of example creatures that would fit into those categories as inspiration to help guide players.
From there, at 5th level you gain choose to Wildshape into any of those forms, but now you have the option of doing so with a swim speed. In addition, you gain access to a few more Beast Types... I think 2 will do...
"Hunter Beast" - Gains Pack Tactics and gets access to Extra Attack. Give proficiency in Perception and Survival in this form, along with Darkvision. Higher AC than the Beast of Burden.
"Venomous Beast" - Gains a Climb Speed and attacks deal Poison Damage and have the potential to poison enemies. Not sure if the ability to output the poisoned condition on every attack is too potent... maybe give them the option to spend a spell slot as a sort of "smite" after landing an attack to deal big bursts of poison damage and leave enemies poisoned for up to a minute. Gets access to Tremorsense.
Finally at 9th level you get the option to Wildshape into Beasts with a Flying Speed. I'm struggling a bit to think of additional beast archetypes, but here we go...
"Burrowing Beast" - Gain a Burrow Speed and Darkvision... maybe tremorsense as well?. Proficiency with Stealth. Let's go ahead and give this one Extra Attack as well.
"Sightless beast" - More utility than anything else, this form gains Blindsight and has boosted passive perception.
Anyway, that just gives you a vague idea of what I think will give players the greater majority of the features they miss from the 5e Druid Wildshape, while still leaning in on the OneD&D system's attempt to simplify things. Ultimately it's only 4 more beast types than the UA already proposes, and they all definitely need a lot more work than I just put into it... but I think this makes Druids more manageable without completely killing the creative potential of the class, as I feel the current UA does.
That all said... I also would rather just have these sort of "Invocation"-style mods to pick and choose from, but I'm pretty comfortable with micromanaging that aspect of gameplay, and I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, and it also seems to be something that OneD&D is actively trying to avoid. Saying that, I'm kinda scared to see what they do to Warlocks when they release their UA...
I would love a world were we had both. So we/they create some quick templates using the point buy system for people who wouldn’t like to build their own to use easily, but the also have full freedom of the point buy for those who don’t mind thinking of their own for each Wildshape. I also agree most people will create their own go to templates, but leaving the point buy allows them versatility when needed. It also reminds me of how 1dnd has handled backgrounds so far.
I would just simply add a 4th option that still allows you to use other statblocks in a similar(but adjusted) manner as the phb or maybe a dumbed down polymorph. It probably would shut off some of the current features but could still be worth the trade. So new players would see beast of land/sea/sky and limited stat block pick. Sounds simple to me.
Frankly having both tashas and phb worked well for rangers and really got the ranger appeal up for most playstyles.
It's for the poison option usually it's the riders that make poison options appealing. Non-lethal ko, disadvantage, sometimes just better damage ect. Just adding poison is not enough.
I fear giving access to the onednd creature statblocks will halt what WotC is trying to do. They want freedom to design beast without worrying a player will exploit something.
Yeah, I honestly do think that your solution is ultimately "better", but I'm trying to think of what would appeal more to a brand-new player, and also what would slow down gameplay at the table the least. I play with some players who get kind of overwhelmed with choice sometimes, so I can see a panicking Druid struggling to decide which features they want for the Wildshape form at each transformation, and I also feel that most players will eventually create their own templates anyway and ultimately have 3 or 4 default forms that they'll build and use 99% of the time.
So here's my take on the concept... instead of having "Beast of Land/Sea/Sky", the Druid instead gets a variety of Beast Templates, and they decide when wild shaping whether they have a Walk Speed, a Swim Speed, or a Flying Speed (once the additional movement options are unlocked). To avoid having everyone just play as flying creatures at all times, there would have to be some benefit to just taking Walk Speed... maybe Temp HP equal to your Druid level? Druids also decide their Size, and most beast types cannot be Tiny.
Then right at level 1 you get access to... let's say 3 Beast types:
"Beast of Burden" - Grants the Powerful Build feature to increase carry capacity, built in +10 to movement speed. 1 Attack per turn... give them some kind of Trample feature where they deal additional damage if they move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attacking
"Armored Beast" - AC boost to at least 18, Big bucket of temp HP... maybe 2x Druid level? 1 Attack as well, tack on some kind of shove feature to their attacks.
"Scouting Beast" - Able to become tiny. Proficiency in Stealth and Perception. Attacks always deal only 1 damage. If the Druid takes any damage while in this form they revert to their normal form. Darkvision.
Those three, to me, cover some of the unique functions that people feel like they're losing in One D&D, but still isn't so many that a new player will get confused. Still needs a lot of work, but that sells the basic idea. I also think each Beast type should include a list of example creatures that would fit into those categories as inspiration to help guide players.
From there, at 5th level you gain choose to Wildshape into any of those forms, but now you have the option of doing so with a swim speed. In addition, you gain access to a few more Beast Types... I think 2 will do...
"Hunter Beast" - Gains Pack Tactics and gets access to Extra Attack. Give proficiency in Perception and Survival in this form, along with Darkvision. Higher AC than the Beast of Burden.
"Venomous Beast" - Gains a Climb Speed and attacks deal Poison Damage and have the potential to poison enemies. Not sure if the ability to output the poisoned condition on every attack is too potent... maybe give them the option to spend a spell slot as a sort of "smite" after landing an attack to deal big bursts of poison damage and leave enemies poisoned for up to a minute. Gets access to Tremorsense.
Finally at 9th level you get the option to Wildshape into Beasts with a Flying Speed. I'm struggling a bit to think of additional beast archetypes, but here we go...
"Burrowing Beast" - Gain a Burrow Speed and Darkvision... maybe tremorsense as well?. Proficiency with Stealth. Let's go ahead and give this one Extra Attack as well.
"Sightless beast" - More utility than anything else, this form gains Blindsight and has boosted passive perception.
Anyway, that just gives you a vague idea of what I think will give players the greater majority of the features they miss from the 5e Druid Wildshape, while still leaning in on the OneD&D system's attempt to simplify things. Ultimately it's only 4 more beast types than the UA already proposes, and they all definitely need a lot more work than I just put into it... but I think this makes Druids more manageable without completely killing the creative potential of the class, as I feel the current UA does.
That all said... I also would rather just have these sort of "Invocation"-style mods to pick and choose from, but I'm pretty comfortable with micromanaging that aspect of gameplay, and I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, and it also seems to be something that OneD&D is actively trying to avoid. Saying that, I'm kinda scared to see what they do to Warlocks when they release their UA...
I like this idea but I don’t think they, WotC would go that far. If anything I could see some of those options being put into the Land stat block with levels at which they come online. Like starting out with the tiny option and the “charge” feature at 1. Then maybe darkvision and an AC bump at 3. And so on. So it’s just one template for the Land and it scales. Same with the sky and sea.
They already have the climb speed added at 5th level so it would be in line with the way they are already going.
I would just simply add a 4th option that still allows you to use other statblocks in a similar(but adjusted) manner as the phb or maybe a dumbed down polymorph. It probably would shut off some of the current features but could still be worth the trade. So new players would see beast of land/sea/sky and limited stat block pick. Sounds simple to me.
Frankly having both tashas and phb worked well for rangers and really got the ranger appeal up for most playstyles.
It's for the poison option usually it's the riders that make poison options appealing. Non-lethal ko, disadvantage, sometimes just better damage ect. Just adding poison is not enough.
I fear giving access to the onednd creature statblocks will halt what WotC is trying to do. They want freedom to design beast without worrying a player will exploit something.
Also thanks for joining the conversation
I believe that with several years under wotc's 5e design would allow them to rewrite the ability while closing major gaps. There is a new tendency to just cut and start over and avoid conflict rather than deal with it. conflict avoidance usually just leads to new conflicts.
I am not saying the old version should stay. I am saying they could adjust it where its not a problem.
Unfortunately, I think ThriKreenWarrior is probably right that, if anything, WoTC is more likely just to add features onto the existing generic beasts rather than go for a more in-depth system... similar to how all Land Beasts eventually get a climb speed regardless of what kind of creature you describe your appearance as. I think my ideal would be what Ain_Undos recommended... an in-depth point-buy system where sample beast stat blocks are provided for quick reference. I just don't trust WoTC to implement that system...
not sure if it's the fix I'd go for but I can add a few suggestions.
Evoker- Can cast any of your prepared druid cantrips as a bonus action while wild shaped, usable a number of times per wild shape that is equal to amount of times taken. (can be taken multiple times)
Magical- Attacks count as magical for the purposes of bypassing resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks (can only be taken once)
Resilient- Gain 1AC while wild shaped and grants 10 temporary HP when using a wild shape charge (can be taken more than once to increase by AC and Temp HP)
Grappler- Once per turn, can attempt to grapple when hitting with a bestial strike as an Animal of the Land or Animal of the Sea. While Grappling a creature in this manor, can only target this creature with bestial strikes as an action, else the grappled condition ends, the condition ends additionally ends if your wild shape ends (can only be taken once).
I really think that these options should be common things in MM. I mean, the options should be replicating abilities that beasts have and not just made-up stuff. The problem with WS is, beyond that you take whatever look you want, the mechanics don't really reflect whether you're a snake, a mole or a wolf. Then, in my opinion, the list should contain things like Pack tactics, poison damage (as the OP rightly proposes), the possibility of leaving the enemy grappled and restrained (Constrict), different types of movement or "senses" (again , as the OP proposes), and the like. And I'm not saying all these things should be included. Perhaps some options could be so powerful that they overwhelm the other options. But that would have to be decided by the design team, which is what they are paid for. But the concept should be that: Common options for MM beasts, in order to emulate these creatures.
This "problem" of making player creatures feel like specific creatures isn't going away it is a core concept to several dnd icons. Druid, beastmaster, pollymoph, familars, possible summons.
The stat block choice became a standard. While having some problems it created a consistent solution for early 5e. Early 5e is still one of the most popular versions of 5e with broad appeal for lots of playstyles.
The new goals seem to be simplicity with better balance. Having a clear table for player facing traits seems to be the implication for most requested solutions. This same table could become the new standard for future needs In the system. It would need enough versatility for abilities to retain iconic representation while maintaining clarity and balance. However the implications can only be speculation. [Note: I thought the dmg had a feature chart but couldn't fid it at a cursory glance.]
I prefer the "devil you know" and improvement on the old systems and maybe 1 dnd can convince me to switch but it needs to be interesting enough to feel like an improvement.
I would prefer something on the lines of Warlock Invocations. That you start with a few and gain more as you progress. So each druid will feel diferent. Some can transform into beast with burrow, others into beast that can pounce, and some others even in tankier druids.
Lets call it Alterations.
Level 5 Might of the Land
Your connection to the land deepens, empowering the Animal of the Land form of your Wild Shape, you unlock Multiattack. Additionally you can choose two choices of Alterations.
Level 7 Aquatic Form
You learn a new form for your Wild Shape: Animal of the Sea, which is described in the “Wild Shapes” section later in this class’s description. Additionally you can choose one choice of Alterations.
Level 9 Aerial Form
You learn a new form for your Wild Shape: Animal of the Sky, which is described in the “Wild Shapes” section later in this class’s description. Additionally you can choose one choice of Alterations.
Level 11 Alteration Mastery
You can choose two new Alterations. Also, you can swap one Alteration for another in the alteration list whenever you finish a long rest.
The Alterations list can be lets say about 12~ of the classic ones present on Low/medium CR beast creatures: The Ability to become Tiny Creature (no more Tiny Critter feature at lvl 11), Burrow speed, Charge Attack, Pouce, Blindsence 10ft, Extra Land Speed, Extra Dark Vision, +1 AC, Climb Speed, Some sort of Spider Web, Pack tactics, etc.
Bug-like: (Tiny-Large) 10ft Blindsight Spider Climb (8th level) 30 ft fly speed Stealth Proficiency (or Thrikeen Camoflage feature) 1x Bite attack (at 5th level) Venomous Strike : Con save vs spell DC or take 3d6 poison and be poisoned.
Serpentine: (Tiny-Large) 10 ft climb Stealth proficiency 10 ft Tremorsense (increases to 30ft at 5th level) 1x Constrict attack : on a successful attack enemy is grappled (at 8th level) on a successful attack the enemy is restrained. (13th level) can become Huge
Predator: (Medium-Large) 40 ft move Stealth proficiency Keen Senses 60ft Darkvision 1x Maul attack on a successful attack the enemy must make a STR save vs spell DC or knocked prone (8th level) if prone x1 Maul attack as a BA
Aerial: (8th level) (Tiny-Large) 60 ft fly speed Keen Senses Flyby 60 ft Darkvision 2x claw attacks
Aquatic: (6th level) (Tiny-Large) 50 ft swim speed Breath air & water 60 ft Darkvision (13th level) can become Huge (8th level) On a successful attack the target makes DEX save vs spell DC or is Swallowed if at least 2 sizes smaller than you. 1x Bite attack
Brute: (Medium-Large) 40ft move High STR Athletics Proficiency 2x maul attacks (13th level) can become Huge
Ungulate: (Large) 60ft move High STR 1x Kick attack
I think I'm growing to like the simplicity of Azktor's concept, where there are a series of alterations you can attach to any of the 3 default creature types. I think giving the Land creature, by default, one additional alteration you can select helps to make it feel like a viable option still even after flying beasts are unlocked.
Love the idea around a system like Warlock Invocations.
Thoughts: 1. Include something like the warlock pacts - maybe call them "Instincts". Options like "Herd Instinct" to get options around pack tactics, using reaction to save or assist a player next to you, etc. "Predator Instinct" to get better damage, night vision, venom/poison and regain hitpoints upon killing an enemy (something like lizard bite). "Critter Instinct" for more tiny creature capability and features to use Small+ allies as mounts without requiring a hand to grapple, better stealth and dexterity saves, etc. "Lumbering Instinct" to get Huge, more HP and resistance to shrug off blows, carry capacity increase, etc.
2. Allow all alterations to all forms but restricting the number you can use in a form when you change into it. This makes the later ability to switch out as a bonus action and switch back, highly valuable if you note that they can pick a different alteration. Maybe start with only one alteration then allow 2 at higher levels and cap at 3.
I like the Instincts name better, I think that is more evocative of Druids!
Yeah the more powerfull the alterations/instincts the less it should have, I like the ideia of 3 at most and the level 11 allowing to swap on long rest to give more versatility at later levels.
So maybe 1 at level 5, 1 at level 7, 1 at level 9 and swap at level 11? That could work!
So I thought of a improvement system system for Wildshape. I saw someone suggest something similar to invocations. I also saw someone suggest a grab bag of abilities when you Wildshape. I decided the best thing was to roll those three ideas into one. Since history and tradition is important to the guys at WotC I suggest just calling it Wild Shape improvement like it was called in 5e. It would completely replace might of the land. The base Wildshape forms stat blocks would work as they are written in the UA except for the climb speed for land and the speed for aquatic. Both of those would go away. Starting at 5th level Wildshape improvement would allow you to pick a number of improvements equal to your proficiency bonus anytime you change into a wildshape form. Some improvements can be taken more than once but no more than three times and some could be locked behind higher Druid levels. What I need help with is coming up with a good list of improvements. I thought about going through the monster manual and picking out unique beast abilities,but felt it would be more fun as a discussion.
East start:
Please give me more suggestions. Or just tell me how great or terrible you think this idea is. Either way it get us talking about it and that helps align our survey answers so we get the changes we are hoping for to improve the game.
not sure if it's the fix I'd go for but I can add a few suggestions.
Evoker- Can cast any of your prepared druid cantrips as a bonus action while wild shaped, usable a number of times per wild shape that is equal to amount of times taken. (can be taken multiple times)
Magical- Attacks count as magical for the purposes of bypassing resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks (can only be taken once)
Resilient- Gain 1AC while wild shaped and grants 10 temporary HP when using a wild shape charge (can be taken more than once to increase by AC and Temp HP)
Grappler- Once per turn, can attempt to grapple when hitting with a bestial strike as an Animal of the Land or Animal of the Sea. While Grappling a creature in this manor, can only target this creature with bestial strikes as an action, else the grappled condition ends, the condition ends additionally ends if your wild shape ends (can only be taken once).
I wonder if this is too overwhelming of a feature... especially if the Druid has to decide on each wild shape what they're going to spend their points on.
I feel like the solution might be to take a look at the most popular Wild Shape choices in the game right now and offer Templates based on each one. Like, maybe some that's just called "Beast of Burden", which mostly just replicates being a horse to give a means to carry groups of players or cover distance quickly. Maybe a "Venomous Beast" with climbing abilities and a poison attack, an "Armored Beast" that grants generous Temp HP and a boost to AC. I feel like there's a relatively small pool of Beasts that Druid Players are bemoaning losing access to with this new version, and I think it would simplify things to just find what functions those beasts fulfill and try to replicate them.
I do feel that, for me at least, the idea of hyper-customizable Wild Shapes with a point-buy system to maintain balance would indeed be the ideal. But I'm worried that it doesn't address the problem of Druids being difficult to play because of how complex Wild Shape can be.
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What’s the difference from having 2-6 improvement options to choose each time you Wildshape or having to look through a bunch of templates to find the one with the specific unique options you want. I would argue it’s better and easier to let the players freely choose the options. A bunch of templates takes us back to one of the problems they are trying to solve. That some templates will likely be objectively better than others and get far more use. But I do see how my system also increases complexity thus also being one of the problems they wanted to solve. I don’t think there is a way to have no complexity and still allow Wildshape to give some of the unique animal abilities it had in 5e. I feel this system allows all the possibilities to be presented in the class description, saves you from looking at multiple stat blocks, and gives you the freedom to be the beast you need in any situation (having the mechanics you need to fulfill the stat block). I could be wrong which is why I started this Topic to discuss it. Thank you for being a part of the discussion.
I really like evoker, but feel the limitation on number of uses makes it too weak. It also gives you another number to track which might make it too complex. But just allowing unlimited castings of cantrips in WS is definitely too strong. I love the concept, but it would take a moment to balance complexity and power.
Magical probably steps on the Moon Druid’s toes too much.
Resilient is great I would drop the temp hp to 5, but that’s because I believe at least moon will be getting temp hp as part of its Wildshape by the time this playtest is over.
Grappler should work for all forms as long as your size is no more than one size smaller than your target.
Thanks for the ideas and joining the discussion.
Yeah, I honestly do think that your solution is ultimately "better", but I'm trying to think of what would appeal more to a brand-new player, and also what would slow down gameplay at the table the least. I play with some players who get kind of overwhelmed with choice sometimes, so I can see a panicking Druid struggling to decide which features they want for the Wildshape form at each transformation, and I also feel that most players will eventually create their own templates anyway and ultimately have 3 or 4 default forms that they'll build and use 99% of the time.
So here's my take on the concept... instead of having "Beast of Land/Sea/Sky", the Druid instead gets a variety of Beast Templates, and they decide when wild shaping whether they have a Walk Speed, a Swim Speed, or a Flying Speed (once the additional movement options are unlocked). To avoid having everyone just play as flying creatures at all times, there would have to be some benefit to just taking Walk Speed... maybe Temp HP equal to your Druid level? Druids also decide their Size, and most beast types cannot be Tiny.
Then right at level 1 you get access to... let's say 3 Beast types:
"Beast of Burden" - Grants the Powerful Build feature to increase carry capacity, built in +10 to movement speed. 1 Attack per turn... give them some kind of Trample feature where they deal additional damage if they move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attacking
"Armored Beast" - AC boost to at least 18, Big bucket of temp HP... maybe 2x Druid level? 1 Attack as well, tack on some kind of shove feature to their attacks.
"Scouting Beast" - Able to become tiny. Proficiency in Stealth and Perception. Attacks always deal only 1 damage. If the Druid takes any damage while in this form they revert to their normal form. Darkvision.
Those three, to me, cover some of the unique functions that people feel like they're losing in One D&D, but still isn't so many that a new player will get confused. Still needs a lot of work, but that sells the basic idea. I also think each Beast type should include a list of example creatures that would fit into those categories as inspiration to help guide players.
From there, at 5th level you gain choose to Wildshape into any of those forms, but now you have the option of doing so with a swim speed. In addition, you gain access to a few more Beast Types... I think 2 will do...
"Hunter Beast" - Gains Pack Tactics and gets access to Extra Attack. Give proficiency in Perception and Survival in this form, along with Darkvision. Higher AC than the Beast of Burden.
"Venomous Beast" - Gains a Climb Speed and attacks deal Poison Damage and have the potential to poison enemies. Not sure if the ability to output the poisoned condition on every attack is too potent... maybe give them the option to spend a spell slot as a sort of "smite" after landing an attack to deal big bursts of poison damage and leave enemies poisoned for up to a minute. Gets access to Tremorsense.
Finally at 9th level you get the option to Wildshape into Beasts with a Flying Speed. I'm struggling a bit to think of additional beast archetypes, but here we go...
"Burrowing Beast" - Gain a Burrow Speed and Darkvision... maybe tremorsense as well?. Proficiency with Stealth. Let's go ahead and give this one Extra Attack as well.
"Sightless beast" - More utility than anything else, this form gains Blindsight and has boosted passive perception.
Anyway, that just gives you a vague idea of what I think will give players the greater majority of the features they miss from the 5e Druid Wildshape, while still leaning in on the OneD&D system's attempt to simplify things. Ultimately it's only 4 more beast types than the UA already proposes, and they all definitely need a lot more work than I just put into it... but I think this makes Druids more manageable without completely killing the creative potential of the class, as I feel the current UA does.
That all said... I also would rather just have these sort of "Invocation"-style mods to pick and choose from, but I'm pretty comfortable with micromanaging that aspect of gameplay, and I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, and it also seems to be something that OneD&D is actively trying to avoid. Saying that, I'm kinda scared to see what they do to Warlocks when they release their UA...
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I would just simply add a 4th option that still allows you to use other statblocks in a similar(but adjusted) manner as the phb or maybe a dumbed down polymorph. It probably would shut off some of the current features but could still be worth the trade. So new players would see beast of land/sea/sky and limited stat block pick. Sounds simple to me.
Frankly having both tashas and phb worked well for rangers and really got the ranger appeal up for most playstyles.
It's for the poison option usually it's the riders that make poison options appealing. Non-lethal ko, disadvantage, sometimes just better damage ect. Just adding poison is not enough.
I would love a world were we had both. So we/they create some quick templates using the point buy system for people who wouldn’t like to build their own to use easily, but the also have full freedom of the point buy for those who don’t mind thinking of their own for each Wildshape. I also agree most people will create their own go to templates, but leaving the point buy allows them versatility when needed. It also reminds me of how 1dnd has handled backgrounds so far.
I fear giving access to the onednd creature statblocks will halt what WotC is trying to do. They want freedom to design beast without worrying a player will exploit something.
Also thanks for joining the conversation
I like this idea but I don’t think they, WotC would go that far. If anything I could see some of those options being put into the Land stat block with levels at which they come online. Like starting out with the tiny option and the “charge” feature at 1. Then maybe darkvision and an AC bump at 3. And so on. So it’s just one template for the Land and it scales. Same with the sky and sea.
They already have the climb speed added at 5th level so it would be in line with the way they are already going.
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I believe that with several years under wotc's 5e design would allow them to rewrite the ability while closing major gaps. There is a new tendency to just cut and start over and avoid conflict rather than deal with it. conflict avoidance usually just leads to new conflicts.
I am not saying the old version should stay. I am saying they could adjust it where its not a problem.
Unfortunately, I think ThriKreenWarrior is probably right that, if anything, WoTC is more likely just to add features onto the existing generic beasts rather than go for a more in-depth system... similar to how all Land Beasts eventually get a climb speed regardless of what kind of creature you describe your appearance as. I think my ideal would be what Ain_Undos recommended... an in-depth point-buy system where sample beast stat blocks are provided for quick reference. I just don't trust WoTC to implement that system...
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I really think that these options should be common things in MM. I mean, the options should be replicating abilities that beasts have and not just made-up stuff.
The problem with WS is, beyond that you take whatever look you want, the mechanics don't really reflect whether you're a snake, a mole or a wolf.
Then, in my opinion, the list should contain things like Pack tactics, poison damage (as the OP rightly proposes), the possibility of leaving the enemy grappled and restrained (Constrict), different types of movement or "senses" (again , as the OP proposes), and the like.
And I'm not saying all these things should be included. Perhaps some options could be so powerful that they overwhelm the other options. But that would have to be decided by the design team, which is what they are paid for. But the concept should be that: Common options for MM beasts, in order to emulate these creatures.
This "problem" of making player creatures feel like specific creatures isn't going away it is a core concept to several dnd icons. Druid, beastmaster, pollymoph, familars, possible summons.
The stat block choice became a standard. While having some problems it created a consistent solution for early 5e. Early 5e is still one of the most popular versions of 5e with broad appeal for lots of playstyles.
The new goals seem to be simplicity with better balance. Having a clear table for player facing traits seems to be the implication for most requested solutions. This same table could become the new standard for future needs In the system. It would need enough versatility for abilities to retain iconic representation while maintaining clarity and balance. However the implications can only be speculation. [Note: I thought the dmg had a feature chart but couldn't fid it at a cursory glance.]
I prefer the "devil you know" and improvement on the old systems and maybe 1 dnd can convince me to switch but it needs to be interesting enough to feel like an improvement.
I would prefer something on the lines of Warlock Invocations. That you start with a few and gain more as you progress. So each druid will feel diferent. Some can transform into beast with burrow, others into beast that can pounce, and some others even in tankier druids.
Lets call it Alterations.
The Alterations list can be lets say about 12~ of the classic ones present on Low/medium CR beast creatures: The Ability to become Tiny Creature (no more Tiny Critter feature at lvl 11), Burrow speed, Charge Attack, Pouce, Blindsence 10ft, Extra Land Speed, Extra Dark Vision, +1 AC, Climb Speed, Some sort of Spider Web, Pack tactics, etc.
For template-based WS these are the templates I would want:
Subterranean:
(Tiny-Large)
10 ft burrowing speed
60ft Darkvision
(at 5th level) 30ft Tremorsense
2x Claw attacks
Bug-like:
(Tiny-Large)
10ft Blindsight
Spider Climb
(8th level) 30 ft fly speed
Stealth Proficiency (or Thrikeen Camoflage feature)
1x Bite attack
(at 5th level) Venomous Strike : Con save vs spell DC or take 3d6 poison and be poisoned.
Serpentine:
(Tiny-Large)
10 ft climb
Stealth proficiency
10 ft Tremorsense (increases to 30ft at 5th level)
1x Constrict attack : on a successful attack enemy is grappled
(at 8th level) on a successful attack the enemy is restrained.
(13th level) can become Huge
Predator:
(Medium-Large)
40 ft move
Stealth proficiency
Keen Senses
60ft Darkvision
1x Maul attack
on a successful attack the enemy must make a STR save vs spell DC or knocked prone
(8th level) if prone x1 Maul attack as a BA
Climber/Jumper
(Tiny-Medium)
30 ft climb
20ft jump
Acrobatics proficiency
Sure-Footed
1x Strike attack
Aerial: (8th level)
(Tiny-Large)
60 ft fly speed
Keen Senses
Flyby
60 ft Darkvision
2x claw attacks
Aquatic: (6th level)
(Tiny-Large)
50 ft swim speed
Breath air & water
60 ft Darkvision
(13th level) can become Huge
(8th level) On a successful attack the target makes DEX save vs spell DC or is Swallowed if at least 2 sizes smaller than you.
1x Bite attack
Brute:
(Medium-Large)
40ft move
High STR
Athletics Proficiency
2x maul attacks
(13th level) can become Huge
Ungulate:
(Large)
60ft move
High STR
1x Kick attack
Or if you want a list of creature abilities I considered when making my list of WSs:
I think I'm growing to like the simplicity of Azktor's concept, where there are a series of alterations you can attach to any of the 3 default creature types. I think giving the Land creature, by default, one additional alteration you can select helps to make it feel like a viable option still even after flying beasts are unlocked.
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Love the idea around a system like Warlock Invocations.
Thoughts:
1. Include something like the warlock pacts - maybe call them "Instincts". Options like "Herd Instinct" to get options around pack tactics, using reaction to save or assist a player next to you, etc. "Predator Instinct" to get better damage, night vision, venom/poison and regain hitpoints upon killing an enemy (something like lizard bite). "Critter Instinct" for more tiny creature capability and features to use Small+ allies as mounts without requiring a hand to grapple, better stealth and dexterity saves, etc. "Lumbering Instinct" to get Huge, more HP and resistance to shrug off blows, carry capacity increase, etc.
2. Allow all alterations to all forms but restricting the number you can use in a form when you change into it. This makes the later ability to switch out as a bonus action and switch back, highly valuable if you note that they can pick a different alteration. Maybe start with only one alteration then allow 2 at higher levels and cap at 3.
I like the Instincts name better, I think that is more evocative of Druids!
Yeah the more powerfull the alterations/instincts the less it should have, I like the ideia of 3 at most and the level 11 allowing to swap on long rest to give more versatility at later levels.
So maybe 1 at level 5, 1 at level 7, 1 at level 9 and swap at level 11? That could work!