Part of the reason for having templates instead of actual creature stat blocks appears to be a simple usability issue: if you're using physical books there's a lot of page flipping involved in using actual creatures -- appendix MM-A in the SRD is 28 pages, and while there are a few creatures in there that aren't beasts, most of them are. This isn't just a wild shape issue, it also applies to beast companions, conjure animals, and familiars. It's also an awful lot of waste space, because a lot is duplicated, and most beasts should have enough stat variance between individuals that we can just decide that spellcasters get one standard set of stats. For example, consider this familiar stat block:
Familiar Spirit
Tiny beast
Armor Class 11 + the level of the spell (natural armor)
Quipper: speed 0/swim 40, Blood Frenzy, Water Breathing
Rat: speed 20, Keen Smell
Raven: speed 10/fly 50, Mimicry
Sea Horse: speed 0/swim 20, Water Breathing
Spider: speed 20/climb 20, spider climb, web sense, web walker, poison
Weasel: speed 30, keen hearing and sight.
You'd have to go on and list what each of those traits means, so it's not going to be super compact, but it should still be possible to fit everything on a single page.
Does this seem like a plausible intermediate option?
I love it, it seems like a good option to me, I just need to add some extra options so that some missing ones are included, such as beast of burden and speed digging (I suppose that for only selecting certain animals with a challenge of 0), but this in itself It would help a lot to simplify into something compact without losing options, and for specific cases such as wild shape it will be specified in its mechanics that the statistics, armor and/or other things of that will be replaced or added, and indicate if some creatures on the list would not be allowed for such a mechanic (Obviously there are no beasts of burden for familiars, all tiny... maybe put a numerical marker so that all 1's are admitted to be a familiar, 2's for another mechanic)
I think this is really great. Just having the name, Cat, Bat, or Owl, along with the related traits really helps bring back much of the immersion that the current play test version of the spell lost. For me, something like this would resolve the stat block vs. template conundrum and shift the discussion to other aspects of the spell itself, like telepathy range and so forth. I also agree that this concept could (and should) be extended to wild shape templates. Again, including the creature name would aid in the fantasy.
I don't mind it but there's still the problem of scaling. The biggest problem with Moon Druid is that eventually none of the forms in the PHB are good and you need to switch to book diving through the MM, and even if you go through all 100+ beasts CR 6 and below, the majority of the forms still aren't very good. This suggestion keeps players out of the MM for the first 3-6 levels, and then the statblock ceases to keep up; it needs scaling.
I don't mind it but there's still the problem of scaling. The biggest problem with Moon Druid is that eventually none of the forms in the PHB are good and you need to switch to book diving through the MM, and even if you go through all 100+ beasts CR 6 and below, the majority of the forms still aren't very good. This suggestion keeps players out of the MM for the first 3-6 levels, and then the statblock ceases to keep up; it needs scaling.
Well, I think it's probably better to just give them direct scaling, rather than forcing people to keep finding new forms. If you like wolves... turn into a level 20 wolf.
This is one of the solutions I like. However, I agree that it scales badly. Still, it's a good solution.
The solution I really like the most is to give Wild Shape a list of features similar to the Warlock's eldritch Invocations, and that have requirements such as minimum druid level or beast type.
Perhaps even both solutions could be combined. I don't know, it would have to be assessed if that complicates things a lot. But perhaps it could be done feasibly.
I don't mind it but there's still the problem of scaling. The biggest problem with Moon Druid is that eventually none of the forms in the PHB are good and you need to switch to book diving through the MM, and even if you go through all 100+ beasts CR 6 and below, the majority of the forms still aren't very good. This suggestion keeps players out of the MM for the first 3-6 levels, and then the statblock ceases to keep up; it needs scaling.
Well, I think it's probably better to just give them direct scaling, rather than forcing people to keep finding new forms. If you like wolves... turn into a level 20 wolf.
I'm fine with that too, so how do we go about that? Because the method linked in the OP doesn't say. It also doesn't let me mix and match traits to become an owlbear or a quetzalcoatl.
I'm fine with that too, so how do we go about that? Because the method linked in the OP doesn't say. It also doesn't let me mix and match traits to become an owlbear or a quetzalcoatl.
I was giving an example for familiars, which don't have relevant combat stats. For combat forms, you'd list things like damage in the base template, and special traits in the creature.
As for mix and match: the lack there is on purpose. There's be standard building blocks, but up to the DM how to fit them together. It's that or point build systems that encourage unnatural forms, which is what people were complaining about.
As for mix and match: the lack there is on purpose. There's be standard building blocks, but up to the DM how to fit them together. It's that or point build systems that encourage unnatural forms, which is what people were complaining about.
A point system is what I want, but it's not a dealbreaker if I don't get it.
I guess he means that in the stat block include something like this: AC: 11+ half your druid level HP: 5*you druid level Etc...
Although this is just a silly example. HP 5*druid level it's crap. It would have to be calibrated properly. But I think the idea is something like this.
I guess he means that in the stat block include something like this: AC: 11+ half your druid level HP: 5*you druid level Etc...
Although this is just a silly example. HP 5*druid level it's crap. It would have to be calibrated properly. But I think the idea is something like this.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
The damage is already fine being a little lower, I would probably have your con change to = to wisdom as well. Giving you an effective bonus to your concentration saves. Strength and Dex changing to = to wis is fine.
Looking at the stat blocks beyond this
Land needs a Burrow Speed option so at level 1 you get 40 foot move speed, at 5 you can either gain a 40 foot climb or 20 foot burrow, all need a Large and Huge size option, You need to be able to keep your skills and feats, finally there needs to be a couple form options like "insectoid" Where insectoid gets spider climb and a choice of web or poison, Reptile gets poison or blind fight as an option, Mammal is keen senses or "ridable, creatures of your same size can ride you)" You get large size at 9 when you unlock flight and huge at 11.
Water probably needs an amphibious vs deep water option, and Flying needs a blind fight vs flyby option.
You can already unarmed strike for grapples and trip and shove as it is as an action and the moon druid can do so as a bonus action, that covers most of the grapple stuff people talk about.
Then just allow people to keep skills, feats and class features but not species features and you are golden.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
Honestly, I DON'T like it, I think we would go back to the same problem of 5e, it's not that we have extra extra health (Compensation for the limitations to this in wild shape), but the HUGE amount of extra life for using Wild Shape, level 20 in druid and we will have 105 extra life per use, or 84 if is flying (also without rest at that level we would have 20 uses)... I think it's too much, I suggest it be a little less, even though we have low armor.
An alternative:
LIFE: (Apart from or as temporary life points, I prefer the latter, so you also prevent the druid using wild shape from benefiting from other temporary life points, having to choose, and except in Tiny, generally it will be convenient for the druid to keep that of the animal trait.) If we run out of animal life (or don't have temporary life points) we lose the wild shape.
Tiny: druid level (20 when you are Level 20.) Small, Medium and Large: 2 times the druid's level (40 when you are Level 20.) Small, Medium, and Large (Circle of the Moon): 3 times the druid's level (60 when you are Level 20.)
Druid of the Moon: When you are in Wild shape, if you take damage and run out of temporary life points, you can use your reaction to spend spell points, if you do so you get new temporary life points equal to as many d8 cast as level of the spell and absorb the remaining damage with these temporary new hit points. That d8 changes to d10 at level 10, and d12 from level 16.You can use a channel nature use instead of a spell slot, this will function as a spell slot of the same level as your wisdom modifier (Minimum 1).
Perhaps, if the druid falls short, at a high level, an OPTIONAL trait of thick skin can be chosen that increases your Ac by 2 points (Only Ground and Water wild shapes, NOT tiny). For the circle of the moon, I could access that option before.
Then just allow people to keep skills, feats and class features but not species features and you are golden.
Won't he keep the mental traits by race? As the halfling's advantage to being scared, it wouldn't make sense to him that it's easier to be scared as an animal than a halfling.
Personally and keep the traits the same way as in 5e, and mark with (d) the traits that would be transferred to the wild shape to identify them easily, also so we take them into account when testing to avoid problematic combinations for balance .
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
Honestly, I DON'T like it, I think we would go back to the same problem of 5e, it's not that we have extra extra health (Compensation for the limitations to this in wild shape), but the HUGE amount of extra life for using Wild Shape, level 20 in druid and we will have 105 extra life per use, or 84 if is flying (also without rest at that level we would have 20 uses)... I think it's too much, I suggest it be a little less, even though we have low armor.
An alternative:
LIFE: (Apart from or as temporary life points, I prefer the latter, so you also prevent the druid using wild shape from benefiting from other temporary life points, having to choose, and except in Tiny, generally it will be convenient for the druid to keep that of the animal trait.) If we run out of animal life (or don't have temporary life points) we lose the wild shape.
Tiny: druid level (20 when you are Level 20.) Small, Medium and Large: 2 times the druid's level (40 when you are Level 20.) Small, Medium, and Large (Circle of the Moon): 3 times the druid's level (60 when you are Level 20.)
Druid of the Moon: When you are in Wild shape, if you take damage and run out of temporary life points, you can use your reaction to spend spell points, if you do so you get new temporary life points equal to as many d8 cast as level of the spell and absorb the remaining damage with these temporary new hit points. That d8 changes to d10 at level 10, and d12 from level 16.You can use a channel nature use instead of a spell slot, this will function as a spell slot of the same level as your wisdom modifier (Minimum 1).
Perhaps, if the druid falls short, at a high level, an OPTIONAL trait of thick skin can be chosen that increases your Ac by 2 points (Only Ground and Water wild shapes, NOT tiny). For the circle of the moon, I could access that option before.
Then just allow people to keep skills, feats and class features but not species features and you are golden.
Won't he keep the mental traits by race? As the halfling's advantage to being scared, it wouldn't make sense to him that it's easier to be scared as an animal than a halfling.
Personally and keep the traits the same way as in 5e, and mark with (d) the traits that would be transferred to the wild shape to identify them easily, also so we take them into account when testing to avoid problematic combinations for balance .
So we have established my proposal is sound in principle and now we are just haggling over price.
First lets establish a part of the cost right out the gate. Wild shape is not only used at level 20 AND it is not the ONLY use for Channel Nature. At level 2 with 16 Wisdom Healing blossom heals an average of 30 health, at level 4 when Wisdom can bump to 18 it goes to an average of 40 health and then scale EXTREMELY poorly. Personally I would have Healing blossom continue to scale, gaining d6 at 5, d8 at 7, range and area increase at 9, d10 at 11, d12 at 13, + 1 per level at 15, and maybe be able to cast as a bonus action at 17, At level 20 we have to remember that a fighter has 164 health and a barbarian has around 225 with resistance to basically everything giving him effective health of 450. So 84 health isn't TOO big. We also have to have this work at LOWER levels. If they can knocked out of it when they lose their "animal life" than 2 health at level 1 is knocked out in a single hit, and so is the 3 health for the moon druid, and that continues all the way to level 20. 30 or 40 health at level 20 is 2 attacks which is less than a single turn by a monster. 40 health sounds like a lot, but that is because we are used to the 5th or 6th level play.
But I can 100% see it being 4+ 4x druid level for land and 3+ 3x druid level for air. = to druid level for tiny. And then scale Healing blossom so that it remains the same "effective" use throughout the levels. Then the question is not is wild shape useful. The question is, is wild shape as useful as the other uses for Channel Nature.
Edit: as far as the reason I didn't include mental species traits was for simplicity. We don't need the complexity of current wild shape of arguing what is and isn't anatomy of your racial/ species features, but I still want build to matter. The skills you pick, the multi-classing and the feats you pick should matter.
So we have established my proposal is sound in principle and now we are just haggling over price.
First lets establish a part of the cost right out the gate. Wild shape is not only used at level 20 AND it is not the ONLY use for Channel Nature. At level 2 with 16 Wisdom Healing blossom heals an average of 30 health, at level 4 when Wisdom can bump to 18 it goes to an average of 40 health and then scale EXTREMELY poorly. Personally I would have Healing blossom continue to scale, gaining d6 at 5, d8 at 7, range and area increase at 9, d10 at 11, d12 at 13, + 1 per level at 15, and maybe be able to cast as a bonus action at 17, At level 20 we have to remember that a fighter has 164 health and a barbarian has around 225 with resistance to basically everything giving him effective health of 450. So 84 health isn't TOO big. We also have to have this work at LOWER levels. If they can knocked out of it when they lose their "animal life" than 2 health at level 1 is knocked out in a single hit, and so is the 3 health for the moon druid, and that continues all the way to level 20. 30 or 40 health at level 20 is 2 attacks which is less than a single turn by a monster. 40 health sounds like a lot, but that is because we are used to the 5th or 6th level play.
But I can 100% see it being 4+ 4x druid level for land and 3+ 3x druid level for air. = to druid level for tiny. And then scale Healing blossom so that it remains the same "effective" use throughout the levels. Then the question is not is wild shape useful. The question is, is wild shape as useful as the other uses for Channel Nature.
I understand, and yes, I know that it is not only used for level 20, I only put that level because it was better than putting several random levels in between. And yes, maybe I went a bit low :) but there's also the question, let's not let the only thing be life to compensate for the wild shape, that's when other things should come in like traits and class abilities and / or the individuals of some circle, so they balance gradually instead of looking for only one thing and if it goes too far (because it is low or because it is too much) the impact is greater in the imbalance of that mechanic.
If we put a lot of life, those who were happy because they took it away in one will jump, even though the problem was something specific for the circle of the moon at certain levels.
Mmmm, maybe instead of those 4 or 3 base (Which will have more impacts at low levels when the multiplier per level is still not that significant) put a wisdom modifier, or wisdom modifier*2 if is low, so almost nothing but it helps to add something when we maximize that statistic that it is central to the druid (giving him even more incentive to max it out quickly), although it will also hurt us slightly if we temporarily reduce that stat.
Yes, sometimes it is complicated, or at least additional work, to analyze what could and could not be covered :) so, regardless of whether they cover race or not, I think they should put a label "(d)" on certain characteristics to make it clear that sas by default are maintained by the druid, so if later a player or the DM has doubts, he knows how to easily identify it instead of forcing himself to analyze it one by one to determine it. (Possibly if some of the non-druid classes are maintained, the possibility of improving the wild shape armor with the barbarian or monk class will be maintained, although surely not at level 1, they will not leave it so far hand, but be that as it may, you also have to take them into account when doing this, particularly because of the circle of the moon, which would have more bonuses for combat, be it to cause damage, resist or impose conditions such as prone, etc.) Thank you very much for answering my question ;)
So we have established my proposal is sound in principle and now we are just haggling over price.
First lets establish a part of the cost right out the gate. Wild shape is not only used at level 20 AND it is not the ONLY use for Channel Nature. At level 2 with 16 Wisdom Healing blossom heals an average of 30 health, at level 4 when Wisdom can bump to 18 it goes to an average of 40 health and then scale EXTREMELY poorly. Personally I would have Healing blossom continue to scale, gaining d6 at 5, d8 at 7, range and area increase at 9, d10 at 11, d12 at 13, + 1 per level at 15, and maybe be able to cast as a bonus action at 17, At level 20 we have to remember that a fighter has 164 health and a barbarian has around 225 with resistance to basically everything giving him effective health of 450. So 84 health isn't TOO big. We also have to have this work at LOWER levels. If they can knocked out of it when they lose their "animal life" than 2 health at level 1 is knocked out in a single hit, and so is the 3 health for the moon druid, and that continues all the way to level 20. 30 or 40 health at level 20 is 2 attacks which is less than a single turn by a monster. 40 health sounds like a lot, but that is because we are used to the 5th or 6th level play.
But I can 100% see it being 4+ 4x druid level for land and 3+ 3x druid level for air. = to druid level for tiny. And then scale Healing blossom so that it remains the same "effective" use throughout the levels. Then the question is not is wild shape useful. The question is, is wild shape as useful as the other uses for Channel Nature.
I understand, and yes, I know that it is not only used for level 20, I only put that level because it was better than putting several random levels in between. And yes, maybe I went a bit low :) but there's also the question, let's not let the only thing be life to compensate for the wild shape, that's when other things should come in like traits and class abilities and / or the individuals of some circle, so they balance gradually instead of looking for only one thing and if it goes too far (because it is low or because it is too much) the impact is greater in the imbalance of that mechanic.
If we put a lot of life, those who were happy because they took it away in one will jump, even though the problem was something specific for the circle of the moon at certain levels.
Mmmm, maybe instead of those 4 or 3 base (Which will have more impacts at low levels when the multiplier per level is still not that significant) put a wisdom modifier, or wisdom modifier*2 if is low, so almost nothing but it helps to add something when we maximize that statistic that it is central to the druid (giving him even more incentive to max it out quickly), although it will also hurt us slightly if we temporarily reduce that stat.
Yes, sometimes it is complicated, or at least additional work, to analyze what could and could not be covered :) so, regardless of whether they cover race or not, I think they should put a label "(d)" on certain characteristics to make it clear that sas by default are maintained by the druid, so if later a player or the DM has doubts, he knows how to easily identify it instead of forcing himself to analyze it one by one to determine it. (Possibly if some of the non-druid classes are maintained, the possibility of improving the wild shape armor with the barbarian or monk class will be maintained, although surely not at level 1, they will not leave it so far hand, but be that as it may, you also have to take them into account when doing this, particularly because of the circle of the moon, which would have more bonuses for combat, be it to cause damage, resist or impose conditions such as prone, etc.) Thank you very much for answering my question ;)
I think it may be a hassle to add that (d) to every new race, but it may be doable. I wouldn't be opposed to that, though I doubt they will.
That said, the concern about health at lower levels I believe is unwarranted. Healing blossom at level 2 will heal an average of 30 total health to the party. The Druid being able to turn into an Owl Bear with 5+5xdruid level at level 2 (15) health and lowering their AC down to 13 isn't going to be worth it for the health when you can get 30 to the party using the same action and resource. The Owl bear turn in will be for the 40 foot ground speed, keen senses or ridable function and the 30 feet of dark vision for the non-moon druid. The Moon druid will do so as a bonus action and attack and will do so, not for the health, but for all those same benefits without losing access to abjuration spells and so it can grapple, shove or trip better thanks to using wis for strength and the bonus action unarmed strike. At that point the idea is to provide some defensive boost to the druid and, more importantly for the form to have enough health that the druid doesn't get knocked out of it in a single hit.
The problem with Healing blossom is it doesn't scale well. At level 2 it will heal more total health than any character has... this is good because it is an AOE heal so it should be healing multiple people. At level 4 this is still the case. At level 5 it stops being the case and it doesn't scale again to level 8 and then never again, even becoming PART of wildshape at 15. I don't like this. I think it should scale better.
My suggestion was the d4's change to d6's at 5, to d8s at 7, the range and area of effect increase 9, 11 change to d10's, at 13 add druid levels to healing, 15 change to d12's and at 17 allow it to be used as a bonus action allowing the druid to cast it and a spell at the same time (matching the level 17 ability of wild shape allowing people to cast spells while wild shaped.) This means at level 2 it would still heal 30 average, level 4 it would be 40 average, 5 it would be 56 average, 7 it would be 72 average, 8,9,10 it would 90 average, 11 it would be 110 average, 13 it would be 123, 14 124 average, 15 145 average, 16= 146, then 147, 148, 149 topping off at 150 at level 20. This would mean healing blossom would largely do the same thing all the way up to level 20 as it ALREADY does at levels 2 and 4.
My general thought on wild shape balance is that... if you want your moon druid to function as a legitimately good fighter, you can do it, but you'll have to sacrifice a bunch of spell slots to do it, because being a full caster on top of a full fighter is obviously OP. Probably spend a spell slot when you use wild shape, and if you do you get buffed.
My general thought on wild shape balance is that... if you want your moon druid to function as a legitimately good fighter, you can do it, but you'll have to sacrifice a bunch of spell slots to do it, because being a full caster on top of a full fighter is obviously OP. Probably spend a spell slot when you use wild shape, and if you do you get buffed.
Agreed, however moon druid DOESN'T function as a full fighter as suggested. It only does 1d8+5 per hit at max with only 2 attacks. Its bonus action attack only gets at best 5 damage and is really for grapple or shove. It needs spells and the like to help out beyond that. Thankfully it has access to abjuration spells while shifted. unfortunately it can't attack and cast most of those spells at the same time. It is definitely inferior martial WITHOUT the spells to help. Thankfully as a full caster it DOES have spells to help.
Yeah, another solution I like is to make wildshape a spell. That would also make it much easier to scale. The problem is that the opponents could do dispel magic, or counterspell. And that's not cool.
I think it may be a hassle to add that (d) to every new race, but it may be doable. I wouldn't be opposed to that, though I doubt they will.
I doubt they would do it too (But I wish they would), although it wouldn't only affect the druid this, surely they will tweak the Polymorph and True Polymorph spells when they take out the one with the wizard class, so those traits could potentially affect them as well (Based partially in the druids, I doubt that they will be left as is, they have the same "Problem", you must look for the statistics of the creature to which you transform or transform into another, so surely it is generalized in different tables of generic statistics.) Personally, I don't I saw it as a "Problem" but I understand that it is an additional burden, but for the DM he is the one who is aware of all the characters, along with NPCs, threads, etc.
The problem with Healing blossom is it doesn't scale well. At level 2 it will heal more total health than any character has... this is good because it is an AOE heal so it should be healing multiple people. At level 4 this is still the case. At level 5 it stops being the case and it doesn't scale again to level 8 and then never again, even becoming PART of wildshape at 15. I don't like this. I think it should scale better.
My suggestion was the d4's change to d6's at 5, to d8s at 7, the range and area of effect increase 9, 11 change to d10's, at 13 add druid levels to healing, 15 change to d12's and at 17 allow it to be used as a bonus action allowing the druid to cast it and a spell at the same time (matching the level 17 ability of wild shape allowing people to cast spells while wild shaped.) This means at level 2 it would still heal 30 average, level 4 it would be 40 average, 5 it would be 56 average, 7 it would be 72 average, 8,9,10 it would 90 average, 11 it would be 110 average, 13 it would be 123, 14 124 average, 15 145 average, 16= 146, then 147, 148, 149 topping off at 150 at level 20. This would mean healing blossom would largely do the same thing all the way up to level 20 as it ALREADY does at levels 2 and 4.
About Healing blossom, personally I would prefer that it be placed by another Channel Nature, for something that is more thematic with the Druid, although I doubt that they will do it...
Regarding the scaling of Healing Blossom, I agree that it should be improved, but I don't agree with some that you propose, so I suggest a variant to yours: (Also I don't know why it would heal so much on average, doesn't it heal less? (4*5=20) So from the start it's a small zone heal, it just becomes negligible at high levels)
The level does not influence:
Level 2-4: d4 (Maximum Heal 20, with wisdom in 20, although normally it does not reach that maximum, you do not have that much wisdom at the beginning) Level 5-9: d6 (Max Heal 30, with wisdom in 20) Level 10-13: d8 (Max Heal 40, with wisdom in 20) Level 14-16: d10 (Max Heal 50, with wisdom in 20) Level 17-20: d12 and can be cast with a bonus action (Max Heal 60, with wisdom in 20, if it reaches 30 it would be 120 max heal)
Another option is to roll as many d4 dice as the druid's level.
Wisdom does not influence (I prefer the previous one):
My general thought on wild shape balance is that... if you want your moon druid to function as a legitimately good fighter, you can do it, but you'll have to sacrifice a bunch of spell slots to do it, because being a full caster on top of a full fighter is obviously OP. Probably spend a spell slot when you use wild shape, and if you do you get buffed.
He is not and never will be a complete fighter, it is like saying that Bladesinger mages are complete fighters, no, they are subclasses that turn to melee, but they are not made from the ground up for that, so they are limited to how far they can go , they will not resist and physically hit like full combatants, and in the case of the druid, temporarily if you are not level 17 or higher, you temporarily say goodbye to your spell slots by not being able to use them.
So we have established my proposal is sound in principle and now we are just haggling over price.
First lets establish a part of the cost right out the gate. Wild shape is not only used at level 20 AND it is not the ONLY use for Channel Nature. At level 2 with 16 Wisdom Healing blossom heals an average of 30 health, at level 4 when Wisdom can bump to 18 it goes to an average of 40 health and then scale EXTREMELY poorly. Personally I would have Healing blossom continue to scale, gaining d6 at 5, d8 at 7, range and area increase at 9, d10 at 11, d12 at 13, + 1 per level at 15, and maybe be able to cast as a bonus action at 17, At level 20 we have to remember that a fighter has 164 health and a barbarian has around 225 with resistance to basically everything giving him effective health of 450. So 84 health isn't TOO big. We also have to have this work at LOWER levels. If they can knocked out of it when they lose their "animal life" than 2 health at level 1 is knocked out in a single hit, and so is the 3 health for the moon druid, and that continues all the way to level 20. 30 or 40 health at level 20 is 2 attacks which is less than a single turn by a monster. 40 health sounds like a lot, but that is because we are used to the 5th or 6th level play.
But I can 100% see it being 4+ 4x druid level for land and 3+ 3x druid level for air. = to druid level for tiny. And then scale Healing blossom so that it remains the same "effective" use throughout the levels. Then the question is not is wild shape useful. The question is, is wild shape as useful as the other uses for Channel Nature.
I understand, and yes, I know that it is not only used for level 20, I only put that level because it was better than putting several random levels in between. And yes, maybe I went a bit low :) but there's also the question, let's not let the only thing be life to compensate for the wild shape, that's when other things should come in like traits and class abilities and / or the individuals of some circle, so they balance gradually instead of looking for only one thing and if it goes too far (because it is low or because it is too much) the impact is greater in the imbalance of that mechanic.
If we put a lot of life, those who were happy because they took it away in one will jump, even though the problem was something specific for the circle of the moon at certain levels.
Mmmm, maybe instead of those 4 or 3 base (Which will have more impacts at low levels when the multiplier per level is still not that significant) put a wisdom modifier, or wisdom modifier*2 if is low, so almost nothing but it helps to add something when we maximize that statistic that it is central to the druid (giving him even more incentive to max it out quickly), although it will also hurt us slightly if we temporarily reduce that stat.
Yes, sometimes it is complicated, or at least additional work, to analyze what could and could not be covered :) so, regardless of whether they cover race or not, I think they should put a label "(d)" on certain characteristics to make it clear that sas by default are maintained by the druid, so if later a player or the DM has doubts, he knows how to easily identify it instead of forcing himself to analyze it one by one to determine it. (Possibly if some of the non-druid classes are maintained, the possibility of improving the wild shape armor with the barbarian or monk class will be maintained, although surely not at level 1, they will not leave it so far hand, but be that as it may, you also have to take them into account when doing this, particularly because of the circle of the moon, which would have more bonuses for combat, be it to cause damage, resist or impose conditions such as prone, etc.) Thank you very much for answering my question ;)
I think it may be a hassle to add that (d) to every new race, but it may be doable. I wouldn't be opposed to that, though I doubt they will.
That said, the concern about health at lower levels I believe is unwarranted. Healing blossom at level 2 will heal an average of 30 total health to the party.
Not sure where you are getting this. You roll a number of d4's equal to your WIS mod. That is the total pool you can heal from. With a 16 WIS, that's 3d4 healing or an average of 7.5 hp. Total, not to everyone in the radius.
From the UA:
Then roll a number of d4s equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one die), and add the dice together. The total is the number of Hit Points you can distribute to creatures in that sphere. You decide the number of Hit Points that are restored to each of those creatures, deducting the healing from the total.
Part of the reason for having templates instead of actual creature stat blocks appears to be a simple usability issue: if you're using physical books there's a lot of page flipping involved in using actual creatures -- appendix MM-A in the SRD is 28 pages, and while there are a few creatures in there that aren't beasts, most of them are. This isn't just a wild shape issue, it also applies to beast companions, conjure animals, and familiars. It's also an awful lot of waste space, because a lot is duplicated, and most beasts should have enough stat variance between individuals that we can just decide that spellcasters get one standard set of stats. For example, consider this familiar stat block:
Familiar Spirit
Tiny beast
Armor Class 11 + the level of the spell (natural armor)
Hit Points 2 + 2 * the level of the spell
Speed by form
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 12
Languages understands the languages you speak
Challenge — Proficiency Bonus equals your bonus
Form-Specific Traits. The familiar has traits specific to its form, as listed below.
Actions
Otherwordly Scratch. Melee Spell Attack: your Spell Attack Modifier to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 + the spell’s level of Radiant damage (Celestial), Psychic damage (Fey), or Necrotic damage (Fiend).
Then you list the 14 shapes that were given the SRD (note: I didn't try to balance things; certain options are obviously superior, such as owl)
You'd have to go on and list what each of those traits means, so it's not going to be super compact, but it should still be possible to fit everything on a single page.
Does this seem like a plausible intermediate option?
I love it, it seems like a good option to me, I just need to add some extra options so that some missing ones are included, such as beast of burden and speed digging (I suppose that for only selecting certain animals with a challenge of 0), but this in itself It would help a lot to simplify into something compact without losing options, and for specific cases such as wild shape it will be specified in its mechanics that the statistics, armor and/or other things of that will be replaced or added, and indicate if some creatures on the list would not be allowed for such a mechanic (Obviously there are no beasts of burden for familiars, all tiny... maybe put a numerical marker so that all 1's are admitted to be a familiar, 2's for another mechanic)
I think this is really great. Just having the name, Cat, Bat, or Owl, along with the related traits really helps bring back much of the immersion that the current play test version of the spell lost. For me, something like this would resolve the stat block vs. template conundrum and shift the discussion to other aspects of the spell itself, like telepathy range and so forth. I also agree that this concept could (and should) be extended to wild shape templates. Again, including the creature name would aid in the fantasy.
I don't mind it but there's still the problem of scaling. The biggest problem with Moon Druid is that eventually none of the forms in the PHB are good and you need to switch to book diving through the MM, and even if you go through all 100+ beasts CR 6 and below, the majority of the forms still aren't very good. This suggestion keeps players out of the MM for the first 3-6 levels, and then the statblock ceases to keep up; it needs scaling.
Well, I think it's probably better to just give them direct scaling, rather than forcing people to keep finding new forms. If you like wolves... turn into a level 20 wolf.
This is one of the solutions I like. However, I agree that it scales badly. Still, it's a good solution.
The solution I really like the most is to give Wild Shape a list of features similar to the Warlock's eldritch Invocations, and that have requirements such as minimum druid level or beast type.
Perhaps even both solutions could be combined. I don't know, it would have to be assessed if that complicates things a lot. But perhaps it could be done feasibly.
I'm fine with that too, so how do we go about that? Because the method linked in the OP doesn't say. It also doesn't let me mix and match traits to become an owlbear or a quetzalcoatl.
I was giving an example for familiars, which don't have relevant combat stats. For combat forms, you'd list things like damage in the base template, and special traits in the creature.
As for mix and match: the lack there is on purpose. There's be standard building blocks, but up to the DM how to fit them together. It's that or point build systems that encourage unnatural forms, which is what people were complaining about.
Yeah I got that, but where's the scaling?
A point system is what I want, but it's not a dealbreaker if I don't get it.
I guess he means that in the stat block include something like this:
AC: 11+ half your druid level
HP: 5*you druid level
Etc...
Although this is just a silly example. HP 5*druid level it's crap. It would have to be calibrated properly. But I think the idea is something like this.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
The damage is already fine being a little lower, I would probably have your con change to = to wisdom as well. Giving you an effective bonus to your concentration saves. Strength and Dex changing to = to wis is fine.
Looking at the stat blocks beyond this
Land needs a Burrow Speed option so at level 1 you get 40 foot move speed, at 5 you can either gain a 40 foot climb or 20 foot burrow, all need a Large and Huge size option, You need to be able to keep your skills and feats, finally there needs to be a couple form options like "insectoid" Where insectoid gets spider climb and a choice of web or poison, Reptile gets poison or blind fight as an option, Mammal is keen senses or "ridable, creatures of your same size can ride you)" You get large size at 9 when you unlock flight and huge at 11.
Water probably needs an amphibious vs deep water option, and Flying needs a blind fight vs flyby option.
You can already unarmed strike for grapples and trip and shove as it is as an action and the moon druid can do so as a bonus action, that covers most of the grapple stuff people talk about.
Then just allow people to keep skills, feats and class features but not species features and you are golden.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
Honestly, I DON'T like it, I think we would go back to the same problem of 5e, it's not that we have extra extra health (Compensation for the limitations to this in wild shape), but the HUGE amount of extra life for using Wild Shape, level 20 in druid and we will have 105 extra life per use, or 84 if is flying (also without rest at that level we would have 20 uses)... I think it's too much, I suggest it be a little less, even though we have low armor.
An alternative:
LIFE: (Apart from or as temporary life points, I prefer the latter, so you also prevent the druid using wild shape from benefiting from other temporary life points, having to choose, and except in Tiny, generally it will be convenient for the druid to keep that of the animal trait.) If we run out of animal life (or don't have temporary life points) we lose the wild shape.
Tiny: druid level (20 when you are Level 20.)
Small, Medium and Large: 2 times the druid's level (40 when you are Level 20.)
Small, Medium, and Large (Circle of the Moon): 3 times the druid's level (60 when you are Level 20.)
Druid of the Moon: When you are in Wild shape, if you take damage and run out of temporary life points, you can use your reaction to spend spell points, if you do so you get new temporary life points equal to as many d8 cast as level of the spell and absorb the remaining damage with these temporary new hit points. That d8 changes to d10 at level 10, and d12 from level 16.You can use a channel nature use instead of a spell slot, this will function as a spell slot of the same level as your wisdom modifier (Minimum 1).
ARMOR:
Ground: 11 + Wisdom modifier (20 Wisdom: 16 Ac.)
Aquatic and Flying: 10 + Wisdom modifier (20 Wisdom: 15 Ac.)
Tiny: 8 + Wisdom modifier (20 Wisdom: 13 Arc.)
Perhaps, if the druid falls short, at a high level, an OPTIONAL trait of thick skin can be chosen that increases your Ac by 2 points (Only Ground and Water wild shapes, NOT tiny). For the circle of the moon, I could access that option before.
Won't he keep the mental traits by race? As the halfling's advantage to being scared, it wouldn't make sense to him that it's easier to be scared as an animal than a halfling.
Personally and keep the traits the same way as in 5e, and mark with (d) the traits that would be transferred to the wild shape to identify them easily, also so we take them into account when testing to avoid problematic combinations for balance .
So we have established my proposal is sound in principle and now we are just haggling over price.
First lets establish a part of the cost right out the gate. Wild shape is not only used at level 20 AND it is not the ONLY use for Channel Nature. At level 2 with 16 Wisdom Healing blossom heals an average of 30 health, at level 4 when Wisdom can bump to 18 it goes to an average of 40 health and then scale EXTREMELY poorly. Personally I would have Healing blossom continue to scale, gaining d6 at 5, d8 at 7, range and area increase at 9, d10 at 11, d12 at 13, + 1 per level at 15, and maybe be able to cast as a bonus action at 17, At level 20 we have to remember that a fighter has 164 health and a barbarian has around 225 with resistance to basically everything giving him effective health of 450. So 84 health isn't TOO big. We also have to have this work at LOWER levels. If they can knocked out of it when they lose their "animal life" than 2 health at level 1 is knocked out in a single hit, and so is the 3 health for the moon druid, and that continues all the way to level 20. 30 or 40 health at level 20 is 2 attacks which is less than a single turn by a monster. 40 health sounds like a lot, but that is because we are used to the 5th or 6th level play.
But I can 100% see it being 4+ 4x druid level for land and 3+ 3x druid level for air. = to druid level for tiny. And then scale Healing blossom so that it remains the same "effective" use throughout the levels. Then the question is not is wild shape useful. The question is, is wild shape as useful as the other uses for Channel Nature.
Edit: as far as the reason I didn't include mental species traits was for simplicity. We don't need the complexity of current wild shape of arguing what is and isn't anatomy of your racial/ species features, but I still want build to matter. The skills you pick, the multi-classing and the feats you pick should matter.
I understand, and yes, I know that it is not only used for level 20, I only put that level because it was better than putting several random levels in between. And yes, maybe I went a bit low :) but there's also the question, let's not let the only thing be life to compensate for the wild shape, that's when other things should come in like traits and class abilities and / or the individuals of some circle, so they balance gradually instead of looking for only one thing and if it goes too far (because it is low or because it is too much) the impact is greater in the imbalance of that mechanic.
If we put a lot of life, those who were happy because they took it away in one will jump, even though the problem was something specific for the circle of the moon at certain levels.
Mmmm, maybe instead of those 4 or 3 base (Which will have more impacts at low levels when the multiplier per level is still not that significant) put a wisdom modifier, or wisdom modifier*2 if is low, so almost nothing but it helps to add something when we maximize that statistic that it is central to the druid (giving him even more incentive to max it out quickly), although it will also hurt us slightly if we temporarily reduce that stat.
Yes, sometimes it is complicated, or at least additional work, to analyze what could and could not be covered :) so, regardless of whether they cover race or not, I think they should put a label "(d)" on certain characteristics to make it clear that sas by default are maintained by the druid, so if later a player or the DM has doubts, he knows how to easily identify it instead of forcing himself to analyze it one by one to determine it. (Possibly if some of the non-druid classes are maintained, the possibility of improving the wild shape armor with the barbarian or monk class will be maintained, although surely not at level 1, they will not leave it so far hand, but be that as it may, you also have to take them into account when doing this, particularly because of the circle of the moon, which would have more bonuses for combat, be it to cause damage, resist or impose conditions such as prone, etc.) Thank you very much for answering my question ;)
I think it may be a hassle to add that (d) to every new race, but it may be doable. I wouldn't be opposed to that, though I doubt they will.
That said, the concern about health at lower levels I believe is unwarranted. Healing blossom at level 2 will heal an average of 30 total health to the party. The Druid being able to turn into an Owl Bear with 5+5xdruid level at level 2 (15) health and lowering their AC down to 13 isn't going to be worth it for the health when you can get 30 to the party using the same action and resource. The Owl bear turn in will be for the 40 foot ground speed, keen senses or ridable function and the 30 feet of dark vision for the non-moon druid. The Moon druid will do so as a bonus action and attack and will do so, not for the health, but for all those same benefits without losing access to abjuration spells and so it can grapple, shove or trip better thanks to using wis for strength and the bonus action unarmed strike. At that point the idea is to provide some defensive boost to the druid and, more importantly for the form to have enough health that the druid doesn't get knocked out of it in a single hit.
The problem with Healing blossom is it doesn't scale well. At level 2 it will heal more total health than any character has... this is good because it is an AOE heal so it should be healing multiple people. At level 4 this is still the case. At level 5 it stops being the case and it doesn't scale again to level 8 and then never again, even becoming PART of wildshape at 15. I don't like this. I think it should scale better.
My suggestion was the d4's change to d6's at 5, to d8s at 7, the range and area of effect increase 9, 11 change to d10's, at 13 add druid levels to healing, 15 change to d12's and at 17 allow it to be used as a bonus action allowing the druid to cast it and a spell at the same time (matching the level 17 ability of wild shape allowing people to cast spells while wild shaped.) This means at level 2 it would still heal 30 average, level 4 it would be 40 average, 5 it would be 56 average, 7 it would be 72 average, 8,9,10 it would 90 average, 11 it would be 110 average, 13 it would be 123, 14 124 average, 15 145 average, 16= 146, then 147, 148, 149 topping off at 150 at level 20. This would mean healing blossom would largely do the same thing all the way up to level 20 as it ALREADY does at levels 2 and 4.
My general thought on wild shape balance is that... if you want your moon druid to function as a legitimately good fighter, you can do it, but you'll have to sacrifice a bunch of spell slots to do it, because being a full caster on top of a full fighter is obviously OP. Probably spend a spell slot when you use wild shape, and if you do you get buffed.
Agreed, however moon druid DOESN'T function as a full fighter as suggested. It only does 1d8+5 per hit at max with only 2 attacks. Its bonus action attack only gets at best 5 damage and is really for grapple or shove. It needs spells and the like to help out beyond that. Thankfully it has access to abjuration spells while shifted. unfortunately it can't attack and cast most of those spells at the same time. It is definitely inferior martial WITHOUT the spells to help. Thankfully as a full caster it DOES have spells to help.
Yeah, another solution I like is to make wildshape a spell. That would also make it much easier to scale.
The problem is that the opponents could do dispel magic, or counterspell. And that's not cool.
I doubt they would do it too (But I wish they would), although it wouldn't only affect the druid this, surely they will tweak the Polymorph and True Polymorph spells when they take out the one with the wizard class, so those traits could potentially affect them as well (Based partially in the druids, I doubt that they will be left as is, they have the same "Problem", you must look for the statistics of the creature to which you transform or transform into another, so surely it is generalized in different tables of generic statistics.)
Personally, I don't I saw it as a "Problem" but I understand that it is an additional burden, but for the DM he is the one who is aware of all the characters, along with NPCs, threads, etc.About Healing blossom, personally I would prefer that it be placed by another Channel Nature, for something that is more thematic with the Druid, although I doubt that they will do it...
Regarding the scaling of Healing Blossom, I agree that it should be improved, but I don't agree with some that you propose, so I suggest a variant to yours: (Also I don't know why it would heal so much on average, doesn't it heal less? (4*5=20) So from the start it's a small zone heal, it just becomes negligible at high levels)
The level does not influence:
Level 2-4: d4 (Maximum Heal 20, with wisdom in 20, although normally it does not reach that maximum, you do not have that much wisdom at the beginning)
Level 5-9: d6 (Max Heal 30, with wisdom in 20)
Level 10-13: d8 (Max Heal 40, with wisdom in 20)
Level 14-16: d10 (Max Heal 50, with wisdom in 20)
Level 17-20: d12 and can be cast with a bonus action (Max Heal 60, with wisdom in 20, if it reaches 30 it would be 120 max heal)
Another option is to roll as many d4 dice as the druid's level.
Wisdom does not influence (I prefer the previous one):
Level 2: (Maximum Heal 12)
Level 3: (Maximum Heal 16)
Level 11: (Max Heal 44)
Level 20: (Max Heal 80)
He is not and never will be a complete fighter, it is like saying that Bladesinger mages are complete fighters, no, they are subclasses that turn to melee, but they are not made from the ground up for that, so they are limited to how far they can go , they will not resist and physically hit like full combatants, and in the case of the druid, temporarily if you are not level 17 or higher, you temporarily say goodbye to your spell slots by not being able to use them.
Not sure where you are getting this. You roll a number of d4's equal to your WIS mod. That is the total pool you can heal from. With a 16 WIS, that's 3d4 healing or an average of 7.5 hp. Total, not to everyone in the radius.
From the UA:
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?