Has anyone played single class warlock at tier 3 and 4?
If so, is it viable the way pact magic and mystic arcanum are designed?
Was it awesome or what issues did you have?
So far I prefer single class over multiclass for tier 3 and 4. The campaigns i play in usually go to high levels and I am thinking about maybe doing a warlock for my next character so any feedback (positive or negative) about warlock at these tiers would be greatly appreciated.
I played a warlock from 14-20 (joined an in-progress game), and it was fine. In terms of sheer raw killing power, I was probably behind the wizard and the paladin, but could carry my weight. But really, raw killing power isn't that important. It was fun to play.
You do need to figure out how to manage your spell slots, because "My turn? I guess I eldritch blast things." can be a bit dull, but you have a bunch of options to give EB more tactical interest. (My favorite: the one that gives it knockback, and tossing enemies back into my hunger of Hadar or maddening darkness right after they get out.)
Higher tiers is where genie warlock shines. For example, t4 modules never want the players to rest, at all. For most casters, this is a non-issue since you only recharge on a long rest, but with your genie's vessel granting a short rest in 10 minutes, you can pretty much ensure at least one short rest. I mean, the warlock is still a caster, so play like one: use concentration spells to disrupt the enemy, then fill out other turns with EB.
I played an Archfey Bladelock from levels 1 to 20, and I enjoyed tiers 3 and 4 more than the lower levels. I had Improved Pact Weapon and a 20 Dex, so I had the option of a +1 Rapier or a +1 Longbow rather than Eldritch Blast. And I could Smite with either of them! I also enjoyed Mystic Arcanum picks, only one of which needed concentration. If absolutely necessary I could use all of them: Investiture of Wind + Crown of Stars + Glibness + Foresight = God Mode.
Do not anger a 17th level BladeLock.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
Some warlocks, like the genie, the Undead (not the undaying which sucks) or the Hexblade, have great features at level 10/14.
Mystic arcanum is viable. It's not the best way to cast high level spells as it doesn't scale (it doesn't use spell slots, you cast it at that level once a day), and you have to "marry" it. But it's the only way for a singleclass warlock to cast spells higher than level 5. And those spells are always powerful.
I've played the genie up to lvl 16, and it's a fantastic subclass. I've also played a hexblade up to lvl 18 and it's brutal both offensively and defensively.
You also have fantastic Eldritch invocations at lvl 15 like Shroud of Shadow, or Visions of Distant Realms (at-will spells are always a great option. And these are two very powerful spells).
On the other hand, your Eldritch bast scales well at high levels (4 beams at lvl 17).
In short, the Warlock works very well at any level. Many people use it only to make a dip because at level 1 it gives you a lot, but in singleclass it is a very powerful class too.
As far as I can tell, all casters do pretty well in Tier 3 and 4, even somewhat limited casters like Warlocks.
However, if you play something like Hexblade, you'll be more of a gish caster/fighter whereas something like Wizard (even a Bladesinger) will focus more on their casting power.
I'm a forever-DM in most of my games, but I have experience running a recurring villain NPC warlock, which has always felt a lot like a player character to me.
In short, warlocks are loads of fun to play at high levels, and many of their low-level weaknesses start to fade away. They get three spell slots per rest at 11th level, giving you effectively (assuming 2 short rests per combat-high adventuring day) nine 5th-level spell slots plus Mystic Arcanum, plus Eldritch Blast, which is firing three rays at this point. The high-level subclass features for most subclasses (i.e. the ones that aren't irredeemable trash) are also unique and impressive to play with. Whether you're looking for a unique story for your character or an optimized "build," the higher levels have you covered for warlocks.
As a side note, 11th level is the point where your patron will really start to notice you as a warlock, and your interactions with your patron can become more intense, whether you're trying to amass enough knowledge of your own to break free of your patron's grasp or rise as their right-hand adventurer. Happy roleplaying!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
I think repelling is hard to pass up, though (you or your party will have nasty things to push foes into)
Anything more than that is hard to justify vs other invocations, IMHO.
Every non-hexblade warlock must choose agonizing and repelling blast if they want to be optimized. Repelling blast + Spells like Sickening Radiance is a very powerful combo. One of the main functions of a warlock is control the battlefield. Repelling blast is one of the main tools for that, in addition to the large number of spells that are focused on battlefield control.
So yes, as you say, it's hard to justify choosing another EI over these two (unless you're a hexblade, as I said).
did you end up picking warlock? what level are you at now?
Sorry to thread necro, but i assume ~1 year later you're starting to get into tier 3 (if even by now) and I think it's relevant to see an update if you have one!
I've been playing a warlock for 17 months now, and I've been level 13 for a while, slowly getting my bearings in a tier 3 existence, and I actually feel like one of the strongest members of my party (I'm one of only two full casters, though).
I would say Pact Magic is absolutely viable as written. Warlocks (providing they can pass concentration saves) shine brighter than anyone when they decide they need to, though those moments are much rarer than a Wizard, Cleric, or Fighter. Popping cooldowns with these classes allow for some pretty epic things, but blowing lv5 spell slots in a fight while still having 1-2 MAs up your sleeve is just an incredible amount of firepower.
While a Wizard or a Bard are going to go far with utility spells out of combat, I find that warlocks still have lots of utility/social influence, even disregarding a strong buy-in on your patron by the DM, as long as you pick your spells wisely. I've noticed since about level 7 that I needed to be actively revisiting my spell list every level and curating my entire list of options, not simply taking one new spell every level. Use spell scrolls! Hex is a waste of a 5th level slot, but keeping it on your list to be able to craft level 1 scrolls (talk with your DM about if this is RAI) during downtime is a big deal!
Mystic Arcanum is a little more iffy, but ultimately it feels viable. It's just very specific. I've yet to cast a 6th level spell and not have it swing a combat or RP scenario (sometimes both... Mass Suggestion just ends combats AND also gives you 24 hours of intrigue, to boot), and there's something to be said for it being very satisfying to sweat over whether or not a MA slot should be used in a particular encounter or not (I spend way more time debating whether to use one than I do actually resolving one's effects). I've been lucky to be able to try out different MA choices per DM fiat to really settle on the ones I want, too, so it's very cool to see what some warlocks are capable of and appreciate your own particular flavor once you decide on a pick - there are lots of viable choices at every level, even if there are also "autopicks" that stand out!
I'm only level 13 so I can't speak to tier 4, but this is by far the most fun character I've ever played (including 4 other warlocks I've piloted in tiers 1-2), and while I feel like a support character 5 out of 6 sessions, I am arguably the most powerful character in a straight comparison if i have all my resources to hand (and decide they're worth spending). It comes up rarely, but i can think of 3-4 sessions in the past year (since hitting level 9) where I completely altered the path of the campaign or turned the tide on a pivotal interaction/combat through the use of multiple spell slots in quick succession. it suits my playstyle, to boot, since I'm a bit of a passive player who's shy in the spotlight, but love to take over if the time is right and everything matches up with my vision of the character.
Finally, it should be said tier 3 is when your patron can really become involved with your personal story. Contact Other Plane, Planeshift/Banishment, Scrying, Dream, even Summon Greater Demon/Aberration have all been on my spell list for some portion or another of my time, and they've all had some cool RP elements baked into them by the DM, particularly when used out of combat for the specific goal of working through personal quest type of things, and i think is why I enjoy the character so much - completely ignoring the combat implications of having 5 high level spell slots in the most important fight of the week, if i need them.
Caveats: We play Gritty Realism, which skews warlocks toward the better end of the spectrum, and we all level multiple characters, so the "main characters" of the party ranges from lv10 to 13, we play "hardmode" with no resurrection/death curse + DC15 death saves, and I play GOOlock. Because it's a kind of brutal campaign, our DM gives lots of magic items and wealth, though we also tend to spend our resources as fast as we receive them and are always in debt to each other or party patrons for one thing or another. This all colors my experience, of course.
did you end up picking warlock? what level are you at now?
Sorry to thread necro, but i assume ~1 year later you're starting to get into tier 3 (if even by now) and I think it's relevant to see an update if you have one!
I've been playing a warlock for 17 months now, and I've been level 13 for a while, slowly getting my bearings in a tier 3 existence, and I actually feel like one of the strongest members of my party (I'm one of only two full casters, though).
I would say Pact Magic is absolutely viable as written. Warlocks (providing they can pass concentration saves) shine brighter than anyone when they decide they need to, though those moments are much rarer than a Wizard, Cleric, or Fighter. Popping cooldowns with these classes allow for some pretty epic things, but blowing lv5 spell slots in a fight while still having 1-2 MAs up your sleeve is just an incredible amount of firepower.
While a Wizard or a Bard are going to go far with utility spells out of combat, I find that warlocks still have lots of utility/social influence, even disregarding a strong buy-in on your patron by the DM, as long as you pick your spells wisely. I've noticed since about level 7 that I needed to be actively revisiting my spell list every level and curating my entire list of options, not simply taking one new spell every level. Use spell scrolls! Hex is a waste of a 5th level slot, but keeping it on your list to be able to craft level 1 scrolls (talk with your DM about if this is RAI) during downtime is a big deal!
Mystic Arcanum is a little more iffy, but ultimately it feels viable. It's just very specific. I've yet to cast a 6th level spell and not have it swing a combat or RP scenario (sometimes both... Mass Suggestion just ends combats AND also gives you 24 hours of intrigue, to boot), and there's something to be said for it being very satisfying to sweat over whether or not a MA slot should be used in a particular encounter or not (I spend way more time debating whether to use one than I do actually resolving one's effects). I've been lucky to be able to try out different MA choices per DM fiat to really settle on the ones I want, too, so it's very cool to see what some warlocks are capable of and appreciate your own particular flavor once you decide on a pick - there are lots of viable choices at every level, even if there are also "autopicks" that stand out!
I'm only level 13 so I can't speak to tier 4, but this is by far the most fun character I've ever played (including 4 other warlocks I've piloted in tiers 1-2), and while I feel like a support character 5 out of 6 sessions, I am arguably the most powerful character in a straight comparison if i have all my resources to hand (and decide they're worth spending). It comes up rarely, but i can think of 3-4 sessions in the past year (since hitting level 9) where I completely altered the path of the campaign or turned the tide on a pivotal interaction/combat through the use of multiple spell slots in quick succession. it suits my playstyle, to boot, since I'm a bit of a passive player who's shy in the spotlight, but love to take over if the time is right and everything matches up with my vision of the character.
Finally, it should be said tier 3 is when your patron can really become involved with your personal story. Contact Other Plane, Planeshift/Banishment, Scrying, Dream, even Summon Greater Demon/Aberration have all been on my spell list for some portion or another of my time, and they've all had some cool RP elements baked into them by the DM, particularly when used out of combat for the specific goal of working through personal quest type of things, and i think is why I enjoy the character so much - completely ignoring the combat implications of having 5 high level spell slots in the most important fight of the week, if i need them.
Caveats: We play Gritty Realism, which skews warlocks toward the better end of the spectrum, and we all level multiple characters, so the "main characters" of the party ranges from lv10 to 13, we play "hardmode" with no resurrection/death curse + DC15 death saves, and I play GOOlock. Because it's a kind of brutal campaign, our DM gives lots of magic items and wealth, though we also tend to spend our resources as fast as we receive them and are always in debt to each other or party patrons for one thing or another. This all colors my experience, of course.
Awesome feedback. Thanks! Even though its been a while your timing could not be better. I ended up going moon druid as i think thats the best capstone. I am at level 20 now and the campaign is finishing soon. Next campaign i am definately going warlock. Either genie, fiend or undead warlock that would go to level 20 as well. I cant make up my mind which one yet but am looking forward to it!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Has anyone played single class warlock at tier 3 and 4?
If so, is it viable the way pact magic and mystic arcanum are designed?
Was it awesome or what issues did you have?
So far I prefer single class over multiclass for tier 3 and 4. The campaigns i play in usually go to high levels and I am thinking about maybe doing a warlock for my next character so any feedback (positive or negative) about warlock at these tiers would be greatly appreciated.
I played a warlock from 14-20 (joined an in-progress game), and it was fine. In terms of sheer raw killing power, I was probably behind the wizard and the paladin, but could carry my weight. But really, raw killing power isn't that important. It was fun to play.
You do need to figure out how to manage your spell slots, because "My turn? I guess I eldritch blast things." can be a bit dull, but you have a bunch of options to give EB more tactical interest. (My favorite: the one that gives it knockback, and tossing enemies back into my hunger of Hadar or maddening darkness right after they get out.)
Higher tiers is where genie warlock shines. For example, t4 modules never want the players to rest, at all. For most casters, this is a non-issue since you only recharge on a long rest, but with your genie's vessel granting a short rest in 10 minutes, you can pretty much ensure at least one short rest. I mean, the warlock is still a caster, so play like one: use concentration spells to disrupt the enemy, then fill out other turns with EB.
I played an Archfey Bladelock from levels 1 to 20, and I enjoyed tiers 3 and 4 more than the lower levels. I had Improved Pact Weapon and a 20 Dex, so I had the option of a +1 Rapier or a +1 Longbow rather than Eldritch Blast. And I could Smite with either of them! I also enjoyed Mystic Arcanum picks, only one of which needed concentration. If absolutely necessary I could use all of them: Investiture of Wind + Crown of Stars + Glibness + Foresight = God Mode.
Do not anger a 17th level BladeLock.
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
Some warlocks, like the genie, the Undead (not the undaying which sucks) or the Hexblade, have great features at level 10/14.
Mystic arcanum is viable. It's not the best way to cast high level spells as it doesn't scale (it doesn't use spell slots, you cast it at that level once a day), and you have to "marry" it. But it's the only way for a singleclass warlock to cast spells higher than level 5. And those spells are always powerful.
I've played the genie up to lvl 16, and it's a fantastic subclass. I've also played a hexblade up to lvl 18 and it's brutal both offensively and defensively.
You also have fantastic Eldritch invocations at lvl 15 like Shroud of Shadow, or Visions of Distant Realms (at-will spells are always a great option. And these are two very powerful spells).
On the other hand, your Eldritch bast scales well at high levels (4 beams at lvl 17).
In short, the Warlock works very well at any level. Many people use it only to make a dip because at level 1 it gives you a lot, but in singleclass it is a very powerful class too.
As far as I can tell, all casters do pretty well in Tier 3 and 4, even somewhat limited casters like Warlocks.
However, if you play something like Hexblade, you'll be more of a gish caster/fighter whereas something like Wizard (even a Bladesinger) will focus more on their casting power.
Every class in the game is fine at high levels. If you are playing at a super optimized table there are more optimized options.
I think repelling is hard to pass up, though (you or your party will have nasty things to push foes into)
Anything more than that is hard to justify vs other invocations, IMHO.
I'm a forever-DM in most of my games, but I have experience running a recurring villain NPC warlock, which has always felt a lot like a player character to me.
In short, warlocks are loads of fun to play at high levels, and many of their low-level weaknesses start to fade away. They get three spell slots per rest at 11th level, giving you effectively (assuming 2 short rests per combat-high adventuring day) nine 5th-level spell slots plus Mystic Arcanum, plus Eldritch Blast, which is firing three rays at this point. The high-level subclass features for most subclasses (i.e. the ones that aren't irredeemable trash) are also unique and impressive to play with. Whether you're looking for a unique story for your character or an optimized "build," the higher levels have you covered for warlocks.
As a side note, 11th level is the point where your patron will really start to notice you as a warlock, and your interactions with your patron can become more intense, whether you're trying to amass enough knowledge of your own to break free of your patron's grasp or rise as their right-hand adventurer. Happy roleplaying!
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Every non-hexblade warlock must choose agonizing and repelling blast if they want to be optimized. Repelling blast + Spells like Sickening Radiance is a very powerful combo.
One of the main functions of a warlock is control the battlefield. Repelling blast is one of the main tools for that, in addition to the large number of spells that are focused on battlefield control.
So yes, as you say, it's hard to justify choosing another EI over these two (unless you're a hexblade, as I said).
did you end up picking warlock? what level are you at now?
Sorry to thread necro, but i assume ~1 year later you're starting to get into tier 3 (if even by now) and I think it's relevant to see an update if you have one!
I've been playing a warlock for 17 months now, and I've been level 13 for a while, slowly getting my bearings in a tier 3 existence, and I actually feel like one of the strongest members of my party (I'm one of only two full casters, though).
I would say Pact Magic is absolutely viable as written. Warlocks (providing they can pass concentration saves) shine brighter than anyone when they decide they need to, though those moments are much rarer than a Wizard, Cleric, or Fighter. Popping cooldowns with these classes allow for some pretty epic things, but blowing lv5 spell slots in a fight while still having 1-2 MAs up your sleeve is just an incredible amount of firepower.
While a Wizard or a Bard are going to go far with utility spells out of combat, I find that warlocks still have lots of utility/social influence, even disregarding a strong buy-in on your patron by the DM, as long as you pick your spells wisely. I've noticed since about level 7 that I needed to be actively revisiting my spell list every level and curating my entire list of options, not simply taking one new spell every level. Use spell scrolls! Hex is a waste of a 5th level slot, but keeping it on your list to be able to craft level 1 scrolls (talk with your DM about if this is RAI) during downtime is a big deal!
Mystic Arcanum is a little more iffy, but ultimately it feels viable. It's just very specific. I've yet to cast a 6th level spell and not have it swing a combat or RP scenario (sometimes both... Mass Suggestion just ends combats AND also gives you 24 hours of intrigue, to boot), and there's something to be said for it being very satisfying to sweat over whether or not a MA slot should be used in a particular encounter or not (I spend way more time debating whether to use one than I do actually resolving one's effects). I've been lucky to be able to try out different MA choices per DM fiat to really settle on the ones I want, too, so it's very cool to see what some warlocks are capable of and appreciate your own particular flavor once you decide on a pick - there are lots of viable choices at every level, even if there are also "autopicks" that stand out!
I'm only level 13 so I can't speak to tier 4, but this is by far the most fun character I've ever played (including 4 other warlocks I've piloted in tiers 1-2), and while I feel like a support character 5 out of 6 sessions, I am arguably the most powerful character in a straight comparison if i have all my resources to hand (and decide they're worth spending). It comes up rarely, but i can think of 3-4 sessions in the past year (since hitting level 9) where I completely altered the path of the campaign or turned the tide on a pivotal interaction/combat through the use of multiple spell slots in quick succession. it suits my playstyle, to boot, since I'm a bit of a passive player who's shy in the spotlight, but love to take over if the time is right and everything matches up with my vision of the character.
Finally, it should be said tier 3 is when your patron can really become involved with your personal story. Contact Other Plane, Planeshift/Banishment, Scrying, Dream, even Summon Greater Demon/Aberration have all been on my spell list for some portion or another of my time, and they've all had some cool RP elements baked into them by the DM, particularly when used out of combat for the specific goal of working through personal quest type of things, and i think is why I enjoy the character so much - completely ignoring the combat implications of having 5 high level spell slots in the most important fight of the week, if i need them.
Caveats: We play Gritty Realism, which skews warlocks toward the better end of the spectrum, and we all level multiple characters, so the "main characters" of the party ranges from lv10 to 13, we play "hardmode" with no resurrection/death curse + DC15 death saves, and I play GOOlock. Because it's a kind of brutal campaign, our DM gives lots of magic items and wealth, though we also tend to spend our resources as fast as we receive them and are always in debt to each other or party patrons for one thing or another. This all colors my experience, of course.
Awesome feedback. Thanks! Even though its been a while your timing could not be better. I ended up going moon druid as i think thats the best capstone. I am at level 20 now and the campaign is finishing soon. Next campaign i am definately going warlock. Either genie, fiend or undead warlock that would go to level 20 as well. I cant make up my mind which one yet but am looking forward to it!