It was suggested that I make this by my GM as a result of a conversation about about spell options and warlock taxes. I love the warlock class design but I feel like it gets in its own way a lot. I made this and he reviewed and like it but since it was his suggestion I feel it was made in a bubble, so I wanted to get some out side criticism and suggestions. This is my first attempt so I don't expect positive feed back. I am in fact here for for constructive criticism. In order for criticism to be constructive I am requesting two things. #1 Be clear and specific on your criticism. What do you you not like and why do you not like it? #2 I would like an honest attempt by anyone pointing to a problem to construct a solution. This helps both in getting suggested fixes but also clarifies the problem by seeing what is removed in your answer. I know not everyone reading is going to do that but its helpful. I am not expecting a lot of reviews because I know homebrew is largely avoided but I do appreciate what I get. I suspect I will not fix problems in a one and done manner however, I might cobble together a couple of different replies with my original intent.
At any rate Here it is. (I could not figure out how to put the PDF inline. I hope the link is sufficient)
Update Version 0.6 09/03/2020 Change log: - "Words of Measure" was reduce from 5 languages to 2, with the ability to pick up 2 more if you take pact of the tomb at level 3 - "Dangerous Negotiations" was completely re-written to make it more simple and less powerful with diminished return for short rest recovery and shorter teleportation range but maintain needed one combat day usage and high level scalability. - "Far Traveling Arbitrator" was rewritten to allow choice flexibility in Mystic Arcanum using a set list once a day instead of basically providing one free one. - Added pact specific bonuses.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I've had a look and read through and idea wise its a good one, ability wise I think it does need a few tweaks. I'm not familiar with Rilamni so I'll base this off what I can find online...
Exapnded spell list seems fine but I get the impression Rilmani are more like interplanar dimplomats trying to maintain a balance and true neutral alignments so I'd change some of these, maybe base them closer to the spell like abilities of Rilmani such as: lvl 1: Detect Evil & Good, Detect Magic. lvl 2: Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility. lvl 3: Protection from Energy, Slow. lvl 4: Greater Invisibility then there is a slight problem in that I can only find Rilmani with spell like abilities that are level 1-3 or level 6+ so anything useful could potentially go into the lvl 4 & 5 expanded spells. I'd put something like Protection from Elements in as this would reflect the various immunities/resistance the Rilmani have.
Instrument of Balance and Words of Measure; You are getting a lot for not much investment. I think I'd limit Intrument of Balance to just Medium Armour & Shield proficincey and Proficiceny with Insight. Words of Measure I'd limit to +1 Language (Rilmani, and this is the language your patron always speaks to you in) then when you gain a Patron Feature at lvl 6, 10 & 14 you are taught an adiditon language from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Sylvan. This would make your language selection a little more tactical but means you won't gain them all. I'm not sure the paragraph that reads "The influence of your patron enables you to search for the true state of affairs in order to properly measure your actions and achieve the desired that balance." really marries up with the charm related spells. So I might switch that to something like the Rogue Inquisitive ability Ear for Deciet from Xanathars Guide (Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.). Also having Friends and Charm Person/Monster as spell tthat you can ignore the components on would be very powerful in the right/wrong hands so I'd leave that off.
Dangerous Negotiatiions whilst flavourful is very overpowered for me as it does more than the Archfey Misty Escape ability and does it more often. In line with the notion of being interplanar negioitators I might change it to: "When you finish a long rest you can select one type of creature from the following: Celestial, Devil, Demon, Dragon, Fey. Creature of the selected type have difficulty harming you. If a creature of the selected type targets you directly with an attack or a harmful spell, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC (the creature needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of fireball). On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or forfeit targeting someone instead of you, potentially wasting the attack or spell. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect for 24 hours. The creature is also immune to this effect for 24 hours if you target it with an attack or a harmful spell.". Effectively changing it to an almost always on Sanctuay spell.
Assurance of Truth: I'm not sure you'd ever need this at will, I think a single free casting per long rest would surfice and then also add it as a spell known so you can recast if needed. Expertise with Insight should be fine.
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Oh not sure how I feel about this, its a free 2nd lvl 7 Mystic Arcanum but I couldn't think of something other than having a free casting of Planar Ally instead...which would effectively be a free 2nd lvl 6 Mystic Arcanum but might be a bit more thematically approproate (you see a devil aiding some cultist so summon a celestial or demon to counter balance their influence, a chromatic dragon is terrorising a town so you summon a metallic dragon to aid the town etc).
Hope that helps.
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OP Reply: I appreciate you taking a moment to look at it. I am going to look at your answers and scrutinize them. This is not intended to disregard you or combat your answers. Its intended to test them versus mine and see what holds stronger. Then shift accordingly. Its also allowing for more discussion, which could improve both ideas.
Exapnded spell list seems fine but I get the impression Rilmani are more like interplanar dimplomats trying to maintain a balance and true neutral alignments so I'd change some of these, maybe base them closer to the spell like abilities of Rilmani such as: lvl 1: Detect Evil & Good, Detect Magic. lvl 2: Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility. lvl 3: Protection from Energy, Slow. lvl 4: Greater Invisibility then there is a slight problem in that I can only find Rilmani with spell like abilities that are level 1-3 or level 6+ so anything useful could potentially go into the lvl 4 & 5 expanded spells. I'd put something like Protection from Elements in as this would reflect the various immunities/resistance the Rilmani have.
OP Reply: The first thing to remember is you’re not becoming a Rilmani, you are working for one. The Rilmani are diplomats but they not just diplomats. They are manipulating events from the Outlands. The need you to be their eyes, ears, hands, and voice to put their influence into business they don’t belong in. As their agent you are a spy, a diplomat, a messenger, and when it calls for it you’re the hand with which fight their battles. The spells I chose I think would all be used for traveling and avoiding capture since that is valuable to all 4 possible roles, they might need you for. The second thing is they need to be useful mechanically to the player remembering you’re a warlock that doesn’t get a 3 spell slot until level 11. You chose a lot of detection spells but those are all niche and it is not wise for warlock to use them since they cast them as rituals since if you find something bad you just used half of your spells and now because they are right there you don’t have time for short rest to recover them. All but one of the spells you choose (See Invisibility) are concentration spells which most of the warlocks good combat spells are as well so your cancelling your combat capability to find your next problem which now means you don’t have means of dealing with that problem. The only exception to these issues is Greater Invisibility which can be used for all the reasons I suggest, could be your combat spell, giving you another option, however, you’re a warlock. You already invisibility as an invocation if you want it, you also get mask of many faces to spy, or shadow of moil which means greater invisibility is not giving a warlock anything. Stone shape and freedom of movement however don’t just work for the warlock but the party and none of he spells I chose require concentration which gives warlock more options without breaking or wasting other features the class has access to. That’s my opinion on it.
Instrument of Balance and Words of Measure; You are getting a lot for not much investment. I think I'd limit Intrument of Balance to just Medium Armour & Shield proficincey and Proficiceny with Insight.
OP Reply: A lot of classes get a lot for a little at level 1, if anything warlocks are lacking there as a class because their level 1 starting is based on subclass so it looks like a lot until you compare it to a Cleric that gets class and subclass features as level 1 the same as a warlock should. Its actually a requirement of my goal that this subclass has to get heavy armor and shield at level 1, because it’s a Multi attribute dependent class and subclass. IF you note it lets you start with ring mail and a shield for AC16 which is ok for early levels but also does not require strength or dex. Most all other classes proficient in heavy start with AC16 chain mail at level 1 and shields for a possible AC18. So it seems like a lot but it actually still weaker than any other class going that melee enabled at level 1. Its also the reason so many people have issue trying to build pact of the blade warlocks. This subclass could invest into strength for high armor when they get the gold but then they would just be catching up at level 3 or higher. This is not so much getting a lot as it is that warlocks should get medium armor to begin with and don’t so to fall short a cleric or have an option to have an AC16 when needing to drop for strength and dexterity in order to get Charisma (for diplomacy and spell casting), wisdom (for perception and incite to navigate dangers and conversations), and Constitution (for maintaining the classes many necessary concentration spells only two chances most of play). You get no weapon proficiencies add and no offensive capabilities its pure early game survival and making it possible to play any of the pacts. I don’t think just heavy armor proficiency does anything here greater than any subclass from any other class, it just fixes a problem with warlocks in general.
Words of Measure I'd limit to +1 Language (Rilmani, and this is the language your patron always speaks to you in) then when you gain a Patron Feature at lvl 6, 10 & 14 you are taught an adiditon language from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Sylvan. This would make your language selection a little more tactical but means you won't gain them all.
OP Reply: That’s seems fair. They likely sent you prepared to a specific place not with every future location in mind. I did that because the second half of the feature is useless if you can’t talk to the target. Which is often something I have seen at games.
I'm not sure the paragraph that reads "The influence of your patron enables you to search for the true state of affairs in order to properly measure your actions and achieve the desired that balance." really marries up with the charm related spells. So I might switch that to something like the Rogue Inquisitive ability Ear for Deciet from Xanathars Guide (Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.). Also having Friends and Charm Person/Monster as spell tthat you can ignore the components on would be very powerful in the right/wrong hands so I'd leave that off.
OP Reply: It actually a fix for the charm spells. As it is no one at any table I play at will use the charm spells because components always mean the target knows what your doing. The only class that can use charm successfully it the sorcerer with the subtle spell meta magic. Warlocks are a class with invocations mask of many faces, beguiling influence, master of myriad forms, misty visons, one with shadows, sculptor of flesh, whispers of the grave, arcane eye, ghostly gaze, eldritch sight, eyes of the rune keeper, and devils sight to name a few geared to them being able to play a spy like character ….and yet even though charm person and charm monster are on their spell list they can’t use their magic to actually do anything when its time because of the components. People have been trying to house ruling some way for this to work since 5 came out so I made it part of the subclass and gave them the tools (languages to use them). The still have to invest their few known spells to be able to use charm person and charm monster but I wanted the feature to make itself available as an options so I give them the friends cantrip. Words of measure is not about making sure the words are honest so much as drawing information out of guards etc to know the real situation in city etc. Assurance of Truth is more what your aiming for with your suggestion. Perhaps my intent is not clear.
Dangerous Negotiatiions whilst flavourful is very overpowered for me as it does more than the Archfey Misty Escape ability and does it more often. In line with the notion of being interplanar negioitators I might change it to: "When you finish a long rest you can select one type of creature from the following: Celestial, Devil, Demon, Dragon, Fey. Creature of the selected type have difficulty harming you. If a creature of the selected type targets you directly with an attack or a harmful spell, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC (the creature needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of fireball). On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or forfeit targeting someone instead of you, potentially wasting the attack or spell. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect for 24 hours. The creature is also immune to this effect for 24 hours if you target it with an attack or a harmful spell.". Effectively changing it to an almost always on Sanctuay spell.
OP Reply: I expected this reply. I get it. I said the same thing to my GM when he originally reviewed it. His statement to me, which rings true to my ears, was basically (I am paraphrasing) “Warlocks have always sucked at defense, which is why all most all of the subclasses have some added defensive measure. More over none of there defenses scale or defend against more than one type of attack. Compare warlocks a full caster class as defined by the PHB to a wizard with all their options and spell slots.” … He is right and that’s what I was originally thinking when I designed it. Is it way stronger than Archfey Misty Escape? Hell yes, because Archfey misty escape SUCKS and falls extremely short on providing any thing that could actually save a warlock. Just like Shield spell on the Hexblade it’s a trap. I have played several warlock and not once has there level 6 defense ability actually saved me and they all have one with the exception of the hexblade which gets greater armor, shield spell, blur, blink, and banishing smite…. That should tell you that even the game designers are aware that warlocks need some more defense by level 6 they can’t get from their spell slots. You may also note that the Newest UA the Genie permanent resistance to a type of damage starts with 3 uses and goes to 6. Is a catch all but you only start with 2 up to 4 and it recharges on short rest or long rest. Even in a day with 4 short rests…being targeted by the same mix of to hit, AoE, escape areas, or save or die attacks who would survive? Option 1 Any wizard, option 2 a warlock with this ability. I would bet on the wizard. However, … I still would not give this to warlock if they were given any offense with their subclass like the Hexblade for example… which you will note, I did not do. Not even weapon proficiencies. This is because warlocks have ways of being built in the base class that make them dangerous. What they don’t do well is defense (medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shields proficiency, and this ability) and conversations due to lack of insight and the ability to use their class spells such as friends, charm person, and charm monster.
Assurance of Truth: I'm not sure you'd ever need this at will, I think a single free casting per long rest would surfice and then also add it as a spell known so you can recast if needed. Expertise with Insight should be fine.
OP Reply: Zone of truth is a cool spell no one uses. I agree once is likely enough. My GM said make it at will because you’re not going to be able to use if often so if you need it twice in the same day that one time in a campaign its not a big deal. Insight expertise is an afterthought and was added to ensure player didn’t feel like this level up is a waste of a level 10 ability. It can verify Zone of truth so they play together, but it also means if your GM always has your target of Zone of truth guarded in such a way you can’t ever use Zone of truth you still have something form this feature. It might be fine as Expertise with Insight but I really wanted the role play aspect of using Zone of truth and if its not a class feature is don’t work with warlock. It is very much in line with this spy, informant, adjuster of the balance subclass. Perhaps, it would be better to drop insight from Instrument of Balance and put it here, but I worry without the insight to back up the conversation the class simply doesn’t work ate early levels. You could get it from a background but then this is redundant as just proficiency and the background becomes a tax if your not using custom backgrounds at your table, even though that’s a base rule not a variant.
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Oh not sure how I feel about this, its a free 2nd lvl 7 Mystic Arcanum but I couldn't think of something other than having a free casting of Planar Ally instead...which would effectively be a free 2nd lvl 6 Mystic Arcanum but might be a bit more thematically approproate (you see a devil aiding some cultist so summon a celestial or demon to counter balance their influence, a chromatic dragon is terrorising a town so you summon a metallic dragon to aid the town etc).
OP Reply: I get the theme, but at the same time Plane Shift is travel spell…. So its not breaking anything being able to use it once a day more so when you don’t even need to travel right now and it provides some much needed flexibility to warlocks at higher levels. Really, Warlock Mystic Arcanum are so ridged I don’t know anyone personally who actually stayed warlock after level 12 and didn’t multi-class. On the other hand, Planar Ally can be an offensive combat spell which warlocks don’t need any more of. Honestly, even though Planner Ally is 6 instead of 7 (which is the level you should expect for a level 14 class feature) is more damaging and broken than Plane Shift which at its most powerful is a party escape button … again defensive.
Closing: It does help and I am interested to see your rebuttals if you take the time to read. I will also ask my GM to look over your comments. Maybe he has things to add in your favor. I will look into this a bit more before I start changing things.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well based on what you've noted above it seems your DM/GM is happy with it (even encourage more) so any discussion is largely moot. Given you mention filling several roles (Fighter, Spy, Diplomat and Messenger) it does seem like the subclass is trying to be too many things, now there are invocation that can replace some of the spells or aid with various roles in one way or another but just looking at those class abilities are enough to make me say "maybe not in my game" but I'll propose a few other amendments.
Spells: There are spells which would aid those roles better. Spy for instance can make use of Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye. Fighter Could make use of Blink or Blur. Messenger could use Message or Sending. Charm spells are already on the Warlock list so Diplomat is pretty much taken care of (more on this in a bit).
Instrument of Balance: So as not to outshine Hexblades from the start. leave it with Medium Amrour and Shield as bonus proficiencies, add the addition if you choose Pact of the Blade at level 3 you also recieve Heavy Armour Proficiency as part of the pact (reflecting training or instruction from a Ferrumach who are the soldiers of the Rilmani). Keep starting equipment can be Scale Mail and a Shield instead of Leather Armour etc but by the time you get around to choosing pacts you'd likely have come across some form of heavy armour to wear if you took the Pact of Blade.
Words of Measure: Just bear in mind removing the spell components does not remove the clause from the charm spells namely "When the spell ends the creature knows it was charmed by you". I might make an addition along the lines of "You gain proficiency with Insight and if you take the Pact of Tome at level 3, you learn one more language from Abyssal, Celestail etc and also gain expertise with in one skill you are proficient in and if you take pact of chain you gain prficiency with stealth and expertise in one skill you are proficicent int" just to differentiate those singled out for spying and dimplomacy roles.
So in short limit the potential roles to 3 with fighter types going down pact of blade, diplomats going down pact of tome and spy types going down pact of chain. This just serves to differentiate the potential roles the Rilmani recruit for rather than trying to be all things in all situations.
Dangerous Negiotiations: Still not something I would allow as you are not only teleporting 60ft as a reaction but you are also getting resistance to all damage + imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against + getting advatange on all saving throws until the end of your next turn and being abe to do it multiple times per short rest. I'd lean toward the sanctuary effect or maybe go for something akin to getting a restiance to Poison and/or Acid, both resistance would be inline with RIlmani abilities so although you are not turning into one it would reflect their power bolstering you or them watching out for you.
Assurance of Truth: thinking about it you could probably do more with passive Insight checks then you could with Zone of Truth. What about going for advantage on Insight checks? which mean if you go for passive abilities thats a +5 bonus (so at lvl 10 with a wisdom of 10 your passive Insight would be 19 or 23 if you took into account the other adjustment to Words of Measure I noted above). Also think that some meetings and negiotiations require a degree of obfuscation or out right lying so rocking up to a meeting and casting Zone of Truth might actually cause more problems than it solves. Granted this is not as impressive as having an At Will level 2 spell but is more respective of being a diplomat etc. Maybe combine it with advantage on Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation checks as well.
Far Travelling Arbitraitor: Don't forget Plane Shift is not just a travel/defensive spell......to quote the last paragraph "You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails this save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence" which is why I would be a little reluctant to have it as an ability, maybe switch it to Teleport if transportation is the main reason you put it in.
Sorry this is a lot to unpack and I was busy today. I am writing it on a word document so I don't lose progress with web page problems and I am 75% done but I have started getting a head ache (unrelated, I get them all the time and take medication for it). Its also late, so I am going to take some medicine and get some sleep and get you a response tomorrow. Sorry to make you wait.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Not wanting to add to any headache but just n extra note re some of my rationale...
The Rilmani are an interpalaner group with different subtype governing different things.
Abionach look over the elemental planes, Argenach act as covert advisors, Aurumach are teh leadres but seldom travel, Cuprilach are the spies and assassins, Ferrumach are the soldiers and Plumach are teh common folk that don't get invovled.
So having a patron of the Rilmani would mean (to me at least) that you are in service to one type or notable person within the ranks of the Rilmani so it might mean your pact was forged with a Cuprilach that needed a mortal to do some covert surveillance, or a pact with a Ferrumach was forged because they needed to "pressgang" or bolster the ranks of some mortals to help repel an attack or an Argenach needed someone to act as note taker and messenger between opposing sides whilst they manipulated from the shadows.
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
Dangerous Negiotiations: Still not something I would allow as you are not only teleporting 60ft as a reaction but you are also getting resistance to all damage + imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against + getting advatange on all saving throws until the end of your next turn and being abe to do it multiple times per short rest. I'd lean toward the sanctuary effect or maybe go for something akin to getting a restiance to Poison and/or Acid, both resistance would be inline with RIlmani abilities so although you are not turning into one it would reflect their power bolstering you or them watching out for you.
OP Reply: I am going to say get this could be deal breaker. As such let’s try and fix it I am also posting it separately from the rest so it has its own focus. I want to keep the teleport because warlocks can’t cast misty step all day to get out of problems. However, lets drop the disadvantage and resistances. However, warlocks can’t counter spell all day either so keeping some lesser level of save bonus would help with that. The Archfey Misty Escape also refills on short or long rest so that’s not a problem. The resulting feature is significantly weaker then Misty escape because melee and ranged attack roles gain disadvantage for the rest of the turn vs assuming they can identify where the target is and spells that require you to see the target fail 100%. Sanctuary has sucked in every game I have ever seen it used, so I would never model a defensive ability after it. The Archfey Misty Escape is so very much better its not even comparable. I think reducing damage is not a bad answer, but perhaps just avoiding it is better. Archfey misty Escape has 3 draw backs, it doesn’t prevent the first attack, it’s doesn’t scale and one use is not enough for a major combat encounter. Shield spell on the other hand does prevent the first attack lasting until your turn, but doesn’t work on AoE damage which is not a problem because casters can usually just use absorb elements instead.
Dangerous Negotiations Rewrite 1: Less powerful than Archfey Misty Escape but more reliable. Unlike shield or Archfey it does not help you against additional attacks but it does help with saves to assist with the lack of counter spell. Which Archfey chives by removing you as a “creature you can see in range” target.
Starting at 6th level, your patron has granted you a defense against unruly negotiations. As a reaction to being the target of or within the area of effect of an attack, special ability, or spell of which you are aware, you can summon a temporary defensive barrier and teleport up to 20ft to a point you can see and gain a +2 to all saves until the start of your next turn. You can use this feature twice starting at 6th level. You gain an additional use of this feature at level 11 and 17. You regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Dangerous Negotiations Rewrite 2: Its gains one charge on short or long rest so it’s basically the same as Archfey misty escape after your first combat but with shorter range. In exchange it gets more uses up front and scales with level as is needed to fix single encounter days and losing its ability to actually help keep you alive at higher levels. Its dramatically more powerful than option 1 but I feel like your afraid of short rest recharges even though they are rarely useful in campaigns and the heart of warlock design so I made it exactly the same as misty step there which should reduce it power. The shorter distance also means its less of an escape and more of survive one round ability.
Starting at 6th level, your patron has granted you a defense against unruly negotiations. As a reaction to being the target of or within the area of effect of an attack, special ability, or spell of which you are aware, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 20 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. You can use this feature twice starting at 6th level. You gain an additional use of this feature at level 11 and 17. You regain one expended use when you finish a short or long rest.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well based on what you've noted above it seems your DM/GM is happy with it (even encourage more) so any discussion is largely moot. Given you mention filling several roles (Fighter, Spy, Diplomat and Messenger) it does seem like the subclass is trying to be too many things, now there are invocation that can replace some of the spells or aid with various roles in one way or another but just looking at those class abilities are enough to make me say "maybe not in my game" but I'll propose a few other amendments.
OP Reply: Well that’s exactly why your criticism is needed. My and my GM maybe in a bubble. I want to see how it holds up to out side thought. However, scrutiny works both ways I can’t move the line at every suggestion on a whim. To that end a bit of back and forth debate lets you refine your point and me mind. Hopefully there is a bit of give on each and we at least find some fixes. The several roles for example, are something the player decides, but in many ways that could be one character. I think a spy, a messenger, and a diplomate are fundamentally “you travel to far places and talk to people and some people want to stop you” which is the role play side of D&D but role play with conflict losses meaning and failure to succeed in resolving it with words means fighting the consequences. I think in a lot of ways this is reflection of all warlocks I have seen already as I described in my Opening statement under warlock.
Spells: There are spells which would aid those roles better. Spy for instance can make use of Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye. Fighter Could make use of Blink or Blur. Messenger could use Message or Sending. Charm spells are already on the Warlock list so Diplomat is pretty much taken care of (more on this in a bit).
OP Reply: Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, Blur, and Sending are good for the roles you describe but not for warlocks because all but sending are concentration and none of them scale. I focused my list on very specific criteria and intent. #1. No concentration. That would cost them their first spell to use their only other spell slot. This is huge problem with the warlock spell selection anyway. I want to elevate it not compound it. #2. Combat spells need to scale and have duration but do no damage. Warlocks do enough damage and damaging spells are mostly traps since warlocks only have 2 spell slots for most of their life. Instead offensive spells need to be tactically beneficial or offer some defensive component. Command can be used to make people go prone so the party can get advantage on or attacks or flee with warlock moving the other direction for a 90ft separation in one turn in open spaces. Blindness/Deafness is similar but has different advantages for different party members and doesn’t work against enemies with blind since. #3. The spells should be useful for several styles of warlock play. Warlocks are loved for their flexibly just like Artificers. Taking away that flexibility is like slapping people in the face for taking something you offered and knew they wanted. Hexblade warlock, does not have to be pact of the blade. It plays just fine as pact of the tomb or pact of the chain some might argue its actually better when not used as pact of the blade because of feature overlap with pact of the blade.
Messenger or Sending are good spells but you want to warlock to engage in conversations not send notes. They end up avoiding the point of the subclass instead of aiding it. Blink is a good spell but it is concentration but Blindness/Deafness can server the same purpose, aids your party as well, and is less random without concentration so you don’t lose what every you choose as your main combat concentration spell when you try to defend yourself.
May I suggest instead of writing off my whole spell list, name specifically which ones you don’t like and why and if possible, pick a replacement that fits the theme of the subclass while complying to the three rules I am using above? I think if your point is more focused on a specific spell issue and avoids concentration your going to make better suggestions. As it is you said the list was good the suggested replacing the whole list.
Instrument of Balance: So as not to outshine Hexblades from the start. leave it with Medium Amrour and Shield as bonus proficiencies, add the addition if you choose Pact of the Blade at level 3 you also recieve Heavy Armour Proficiency as part of the pact (reflecting training or instruction from a Ferrumach who are the soldiers of the Rilmani). Keep starting equipment can be Scale Mail and a Shield instead of Leather Armour etc but by the time you get around to choosing pacts you'd likely have come across some form of heavy armour to wear if you took the Pact of Blade.
OP Reply: Hexblade is a damage subclass no amount of armor will out shine hexblades damage for someone who wants to do damage. All armor does is add survivability. On top of that why do you assume I would want heavy armor for Pact of the blade? Honestly, that would be my last pick. Pact of the Chain would be a better spy using a familiar (instead of one use concentration breaking arcane eye) and Pact of the tome can get message as a cantrip for a messenger, even pact of the talisman could work for the someone aiding one side to shift balance all still need defense and might want to drop Dexterity AND Strength making Ring Mail and shield the only ay for them to see AS16 and they likely will not go up from there. If your playing this subclass you will never be as powerful a melee fighter as a Hexblade because hexblade is all about damage and closing in for melee and cursing enemies…. This subclass is about traveling talking and not dying. There is no real over lap here and Pact of the Blade really your worst option… armor alone will not let this subclass work as tank or keep up with other classes in Melee DPR and the eldritch invocation might make it ok but hexblades, Undying vs undead, and the Celestial patron are all better pact of the blade options. Hands down.
Words of Measure: Just bear in mind removing the spell components does not remove the clause from the charm spells namely "When the spell ends the creature knows it was charmed by you". I might make an addition along the lines of "You gain proficiency with Insight and if you take the Pact of Tome at level 3, you learn one more language from Abyssal, Celestail etc and also gain expertise with in one skill you are proficient in and if you take pact of chain you gain proficiency with stealth and expertise in one skill you are proficient int" just to differentiate those singled out for spying and diplomacy roles.
OP Reply: I am completely aware of and ok with creatures knowing it was charmed AFTER you have gotten your information out of them and that the friends cantrip will make them hostile AFTER. The point is to be able to use it to begin with. Dealing with the consequences of using it part of the fun of the game. Also, like I said, I built the spell list with running away an hiding in mind. That is spot on for design intent. I don’t want pact of the tome a tax for using the subclass, but I am not apposed for being pushed a bit (with a Ring Mail option) by dropping it to one language from the list and “if you take pact of the tome at level 3 you gain 2 more languages from this list”… we need more draw for pact of the tomb and it’s a good fit for this subclass but insight is needed or the subclass is charismatic idiot and will fail at everything because he never understands what he is doing wrong. That’s not fun for a player to buy into the design then not be able to actually perform. It’s why rogue are more often faces than warlocks because even though warlocks dance all around it rogue get 4 skills at level 1 with a class list that includes insight, deception, intimidation, and persuasion, two of those can have expertise at level 1 and the other two at level. I don’t think its too much for Warlocks to choose intimidation as a class skill, spend an invocation at level 2 on Beguiling Influence (Deception and Persuasion), get incite from the subclass, and cast charm hidden up front but have to deal with the fall out later. A lot of people want to play the warlock this way and the Beguiling Influence invocation is proof of that but it is still just meeting minimums when a player is trying to choose this over rogue. As it is everyone, I know ended up going rogue. Which is part of the discussion in my first paragraph about why this warlock patron is different and needs to exist.
So in short limit the potential roles to 3 with fighter types going down pact of blade, diplomats going down pact of tome and spy types going down pact of chain. This just serves to differentiate the potential roles the Rilmani recruit for rather than trying to be all things in all situations.
OP Reply: The thing is your asking to add to choices by taking away from others. Heavy armor for example doesn’t have to be used for pact of blade, I have a pact of the chain tank who doesn’t use melee weapons but casts Toll the dead point blank. I had a pact of the tome before that took
Shillelagh as one of their tome cantrips and used charisma to fight with a club. The fun of warlock is that they are flexible in design. You should never limit it to one pact and Jeremy Crawford said that himself in a video about the hexblade. People think it was built for pact of the blade but almost every feature can be used with spells as well as melee. The only melee specific part is the second half HexWarrior which is not pact of the blade but melee specific so a pact of the tome could use a club with Shillelagh and use 100% of Hex Warrior. Only the last line means anything for pact of the blade because it allows pact of the blade to use two handed weapons as long as they are the pact weapon which only matters if you intend to drop the shield. Similarly, I am willing to give extra languages for Pact of the tome but that not limiting it to 3 roles, that’s a minor benefit if you pick a specific one.
< Omitted Dangerous Negiotiations discussion and placed it in its own reply>
Assurance of Truth: thinking about it you could probably do more with passive Insight checks then you could with Zone of Truth. What about going for advantage on Insight checks? which mean if you go for passive abilities thats a +5 bonus (so at lvl 10 with a wisdom of 10 your passive Insight would be 19 or 23 if you took into account the other adjustment to Words of Measure I noted above). Also think that some meetings and negiotiations require a degree of obfuscation or out right lying so rocking up to a meeting and casting Zone of Truth might actually cause more problems than it solves. Granted this is not as impressive as having an At Will level 2 spell but is more respective of being a diplomat etc. Maybe combine it with advantage on Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation checks as well.
OP Reply: You are 100% correct. At the same time, I went with zone of truth because on a spell list no one would pick it being to situational. It provides a role play option the game has always had that no one uses because it requires the right situation to use. I get advantage or expertise are more powerful options as I mentioned above. I do think its more interesting sub-class design to not go with the I win button and replicate rogues. This should appeal to people who want to role play out and navigate those negotiations and even the double-edged sword of perhaps requiring that you are in the circle … its interesting roleplay people would only use as a class feature. Its also so by design that Zone of Truth allows for obfuscation through omission which makes insight a requirement to use it functionally well. Having Expertise in insight both makes the feature work better but also provides an function of the feature that the player can use that is less random and obscure.
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Don't forget Plane Shift is not just a travel/defensive spell......to quote the last paragraph "You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails this save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence" which is why I would be a little reluctant to have it as an ability, maybe switch it to Teleport if transportation is the main reason you put it in.
OP Reply: That is fair, I just wanted the travel part. What if just put a rider to block that part?
Starting at 14th level, you gain the ability to pass between the planes and to teleportation circles on other plans as if with Plane Shift spell but without expending a spell slot. You are unable to use this ability to target unwilling creatures. Once you use this ability you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
Edit: I took another look at this. Instead of "giving a free Mystical Arcanum" which was your complaint. What about giving them some flexibility to choose a different warlock spell for their arcanum? Warlocks already have Plane shift on there list and being able to use it twice means they would be the only class capable of jumping to a plain and back in a single day by them-self. Instead I came up with this:
Traveling Arbitrator Starting at 14th level, you gain the ability substitute your Mystical Arcanum with another warlock spell of equal or lower level to help you in your travels to distant lands.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
It addresses one of the biggest complaints about high level warlocks, while not even being as powerful as other casters and without adding any additional casting of spells yet, I get supper excited about it. I mean it really just a once a day option to change a prepared spell which warlocks are the only class to be stuck with one option for life.
Note: I like the some of the re-writes that came out of this conversation and there is enough I feel an update is reasonable. I will make the change and link the new version in the original post as a note.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Not wanting to add to any headache but just n extra note re some of my rationale...
The Rilmani are an interpalaner group with different subtype governing different things.
Abionach look over the elemental planes, Argenach act as covert advisors, Aurumach are teh leadres but seldom travel, Cuprilach are the spies and assassins, Ferrumach are the soldiers and Plumach are teh common folk that don't get invovled.
So having a patron of the Rilmani would mean (to me at least) that you are in service to one type or notable person within the ranks of the Rilmani so it might mean your pact was forged with a Cuprilach that needed a mortal to do some covert surveillance, or a pact with a Ferrumach was forged because they needed to "pressgang" or bolster the ranks of some mortals to help repel an attack or an Argenach needed someone to act as note taker and messenger between opposing sides whilst they manipulated from the shadows.
Well yes, but your just talking about players defining there back story, party role, and build of this subclass by their choices in skills, feats, invocations, and attribute priorities. I don't disagree at all with what your saying. I am just noting that all the Patrons for warlock are the same way and these choices are left for the player and GM to work out. So I will leave my design with that standard of flexibility in mind knowing that players are going to have to work out their back story and how they want to use it same as any other warlock patron or even any other class.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Not wanting to add to any headache but just n extra note re some of my rationale...
The Rilmani are an interpalaner group with different subtype governing different things.
Abionach look over the elemental planes, Argenach act as covert advisors, Aurumach are teh leadres but seldom travel, Cuprilach are the spies and assassins, Ferrumach are the soldiers and Plumach are teh common folk that don't get invovled.
So having a patron of the Rilmani would mean (to me at least) that you are in service to one type or notable person within the ranks of the Rilmani so it might mean your pact was forged with a Cuprilach that needed a mortal to do some covert surveillance, or a pact with a Ferrumach was forged because they needed to "pressgang" or bolster the ranks of some mortals to help repel an attack or an Argenach needed someone to act as note taker and messenger between opposing sides whilst they manipulated from the shadows.
Well yes, but your just talking about players defining there back story, party role, and build of this subclass by their choices in skills, feats, invocations, and attribute priorities. I don't disagree at all with what your saying. I am just noting that all the Patrons for warlock are the same way and these choices are left for the player and GM to work out. So I will leave my design with that standard of flexibility in mind knowing that players are going to have to work out their back story and how they want to use it same as any other warlock patron or even any other class.
I'll be honest..I skim read pretty much everything you put above....I not only use a heavily homebrewed character creation process (so some of the concerns you have about a class/subclass may not be something apparent to me or my game) but I try to tweak and adjust warlock patrons (not to mention of class spell lists) to fit individual characters, so a fiend lock with a Draegloth patron will have different spells and abilities than a fiend lock with Asmodeus for a patron and a fey lock with Hyrsam as a paton will have slightly different powers to some one with the Queen of Air and Darkness. I should probably remember this more often when replying to posts.
So when I look at a subclass and see all the things it is trying to do, before thinking about build/feats/invocations/multiclass combos, I ask myself "do these abilities and spells make sense and do they represent the patron invovled?", so for your subclass I then started to think that it needs to be more easily defined by what the role of each respective patron is and what each rilmani patron would likely offer.
Now they may all have a set of core abilities that all their warlocks get but there should, to my mind, be some "flexible" benefit attached that changes depending on the patron involved, much like the spell list and type of resistances you get for a Genie patron are slightly different depending on the type of genie ivolved. You could even build the subclass like the Barbarian Path of the Totem Warrior so you get a choice of "training" whenever you gain a class feature and refelct the various jobs you've been doing for the Rilmani.
To close...I do like the change to Far Travelling Arbitrator with the choices of switching arcnum spells each long rest
PS....apparently your updated version is in your trash folder and not viewable....
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* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
Not wanting to add to any headache but just n extra note re some of my rationale...
The Rilmani are an interpalaner group with different subtype governing different things.
Abionach look over the elemental planes, Argenach act as covert advisors, Aurumach are teh leadres but seldom travel, Cuprilach are the spies and assassins, Ferrumach are the soldiers and Plumach are teh common folk that don't get invovled.
So having a patron of the Rilmani would mean (to me at least) that you are in service to one type or notable person within the ranks of the Rilmani so it might mean your pact was forged with a Cuprilach that needed a mortal to do some covert surveillance, or a pact with a Ferrumach was forged because they needed to "pressgang" or bolster the ranks of some mortals to help repel an attack or an Argenach needed someone to act as note taker and messenger between opposing sides whilst they manipulated from the shadows.
Well yes, but your just talking about players defining there back story, party role, and build of this subclass by their choices in skills, feats, invocations, and attribute priorities. I don't disagree at all with what your saying. I am just noting that all the Patrons for warlock are the same way and these choices are left for the player and GM to work out. So I will leave my design with that standard of flexibility in mind knowing that players are going to have to work out their back story and how they want to use it same as any other warlock patron or even any other class.
I'll be honest..I skim read pretty much everything you put above....I not only use a heavily homebrewed character creation process (so some of the concerns you have about a class/subclass may not be something apparent to me or my game) but I try to tweak and adjust warlock patrons (not to mention of class spell lists) to fit individual characters, so a fiend lock with a Draegloth patron will have different spells and abilities than a fiend lock with Asmodeus for a patron and a fey lock with Hyrsam as a paton will have slightly different powers to some one with the Queen of Air and Darkness. I should probably remember this more often when replying to posts.
So when I look at a subclass and see all the things it is trying to do, before thinking about build/feats/invocations/multiclass combos, I ask myself "do these abilities and spells make sense and do they represent the patron invovled?", so for your subclass I then started to think that it needs to be more easily defined by what the role of each respective patron is and what each rilmani patron would likely offer.
Now they may all have a set of core abilities that all their warlocks get but there should, to my mind, be some "flexible" benefit attached that changes depending on the patron involved, much like the spell list and type of resistances you get for a Genie patron are slightly different depending on the type of genie ivolved. You could even build the subclass like the Barbarian Path of the Totem Warrior so you get a choice of "training" whenever you gain a class feature and refelct the various jobs you've been doing for the Rilmani.
To close...I do like the change to Far Travelling Arbitrator with the choices of switching arcnum spells each long rest
PS....apparently your updated version is in your trash folder and not viewable....
Well I appreciate the input. I added Pact specific bonuses which and made several improvement based on our conversations. So thank you. The link works for me but its possible you grabbed it while I was switching to the update. I might have different access, so I will get someone else to try it if I can to troubleshoot. If you try it now... it might work for you.
I do like the Genie design and I get what your saying but I can't account for every possible patron, pact, and player role. It makes since that a GM would tweek it as you are doing. All I can do is make the best base I can. I suspect that is part of why only a few classes branch that way. When they branch they make poeple happy however warlock is already very flexible compared to other classes so I feel its a requirement of sub classes.
Are there any specific spells on the list you feel are a problem?
How do you feel about my latest version of Dangerous Negiotiations?
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
It reads like a one round version of blink so should be ok.
Cool. that is what based it one. It's actually weaker than that because deliberately left it so they know where you are and can fallow you to where you will return. Which blink does not do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
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It was suggested that I make this by my GM as a result of a conversation about about spell options and warlock taxes. I love the warlock class design but I feel like it gets in its own way a lot.
I made this and he reviewed and like it but since it was his suggestion I feel it was made in a bubble, so I wanted to get some out side criticism and suggestions. This is my first attempt so I don't expect positive feed back. I am in fact here for for constructive criticism. In order for criticism to be constructive I am requesting two things. #1 Be clear and specific on your criticism. What do you you not like and why do you not like it? #2 I would like an honest attempt by anyone pointing to a problem to construct a solution. This helps both in getting suggested fixes but also clarifies the problem by seeing what is removed in your answer. I know not everyone reading is going to do that but its helpful. I am not expecting a lot of reviews because I know homebrew is largely avoided but I do appreciate what I get. I suspect I will not fix problems in a one and done manner however, I might cobble together a couple of different replies with my original intent.
At any rate Here it is. (I could not figure out how to put the PDF inline. I hope the link is sufficient)
Update Version 0.6 09/03/2020 Change log:
- "Words of Measure" was reduce from 5 languages to 2, with the ability to pick up 2 more if you take pact of the tomb at level 3
- "Dangerous Negotiations" was completely re-written to make it more simple and less powerful with diminished return for short rest recovery and shorter teleportation range but maintain needed one combat day usage and high level scalability.
- "Far Traveling Arbitrator" was rewritten to allow choice flexibility in Mystic Arcanum using a set list once a day instead of basically providing one free one.
- Added pact specific bonuses.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I've had a look and read through and idea wise its a good one, ability wise I think it does need a few tweaks. I'm not familiar with Rilamni so I'll base this off what I can find online...
Exapnded spell list seems fine but I get the impression Rilmani are more like interplanar dimplomats trying to maintain a balance and true neutral alignments so I'd change some of these, maybe base them closer to the spell like abilities of Rilmani such as: lvl 1: Detect Evil & Good, Detect Magic. lvl 2: Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility. lvl 3: Protection from Energy, Slow. lvl 4: Greater Invisibility then there is a slight problem in that I can only find Rilmani with spell like abilities that are level 1-3 or level 6+ so anything useful could potentially go into the lvl 4 & 5 expanded spells. I'd put something like Protection from Elements in as this would reflect the various immunities/resistance the Rilmani have.
Instrument of Balance and Words of Measure; You are getting a lot for not much investment. I think I'd limit Intrument of Balance to just Medium Armour & Shield proficincey and Proficiceny with Insight. Words of Measure I'd limit to +1 Language (Rilmani, and this is the language your patron always speaks to you in) then when you gain a Patron Feature at lvl 6, 10 & 14 you are taught an adiditon language from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Sylvan. This would make your language selection a little more tactical but means you won't gain them all. I'm not sure the paragraph that reads "The influence of your patron enables you to search for the true state of affairs in order to properly measure your actions and
achieve the desired that balance." really marries up with the charm related spells. So I might switch that to something like the Rogue Inquisitive ability Ear for Deciet from Xanathars Guide (Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.). Also having Friends and Charm Person/Monster as spell tthat you can ignore the components on would be very powerful in the right/wrong hands so I'd leave that off.
Dangerous Negotiatiions whilst flavourful is very overpowered for me as it does more than the Archfey Misty Escape ability and does it more often. In line with the notion of being interplanar negioitators I might change it to: "When you finish a long rest you can select one type of creature from the following: Celestial, Devil, Demon, Dragon, Fey. Creature of the selected type have difficulty harming you. If a creature of the selected type targets you directly with an attack or a harmful spell, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw
against your spell save DC (the creature needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of fireball). On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or forfeit targeting someone instead of you, potentially wasting the attack or spell. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect for 24 hours. The creature is also immune to this effect for 24 hours if you target it with an attack or a harmful spell.". Effectively changing it to an almost always on Sanctuay spell.
Assurance of Truth: I'm not sure you'd ever need this at will, I think a single free casting per long rest would surfice and then also add it as a spell known so you can recast if needed. Expertise with Insight should be fine.
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Oh not sure how I feel about this, its a free 2nd lvl 7 Mystic Arcanum but I couldn't think of something other than having a free casting of Planar Ally instead...which would effectively be a free 2nd lvl 6 Mystic Arcanum but might be a bit more thematically approproate (you see a devil aiding some cultist so summon a celestial or demon to counter balance their influence, a chromatic dragon is terrorising a town so you summon a metallic dragon to aid the town etc).
Hope that helps.
OP Reply: I appreciate you taking a moment to look at it. I am going to look at your answers and scrutinize them. This is not intended to disregard you or combat your answers. Its intended to test them versus mine and see what holds stronger. Then shift accordingly. Its also allowing for more discussion, which could improve both ideas.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Exapnded spell list seems fine but I get the impression Rilmani are more like interplanar dimplomats trying to maintain a balance and true neutral alignments so I'd change some of these, maybe base them closer to the spell like abilities of Rilmani such as: lvl 1: Detect Evil & Good, Detect Magic. lvl 2: Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility. lvl 3: Protection from Energy, Slow. lvl 4: Greater Invisibility then there is a slight problem in that I can only find Rilmani with spell like abilities that are level 1-3 or level 6+ so anything useful could potentially go into the lvl 4 & 5 expanded spells. I'd put something like Protection from Elements in as this would reflect the various immunities/resistance the Rilmani have.
OP Reply: The first thing to remember is you’re not becoming a Rilmani, you are working for one. The Rilmani are diplomats but they not just diplomats. They are manipulating events from the Outlands. The need you to be their eyes, ears, hands, and voice to put their influence into business they don’t belong in. As their agent you are a spy, a diplomat, a messenger, and when it calls for it you’re the hand with which fight their battles. The spells I chose I think would all be used for traveling and avoiding capture since that is valuable to all 4 possible roles, they might need you for. The second thing is they need to be useful mechanically to the player remembering you’re a warlock that doesn’t get a 3 spell slot until level 11. You chose a lot of detection spells but those are all niche and it is not wise for warlock to use them since they cast them as rituals since if you find something bad you just used half of your spells and now because they are right there you don’t have time for short rest to recover them. All but one of the spells you choose (See Invisibility) are concentration spells which most of the warlocks good combat spells are as well so your cancelling your combat capability to find your next problem which now means you don’t have means of dealing with that problem. The only exception to these issues is Greater Invisibility which can be used for all the reasons I suggest, could be your combat spell, giving you another option, however, you’re a warlock. You already invisibility as an invocation if you want it, you also get mask of many faces to spy, or shadow of moil which means greater invisibility is not giving a warlock anything. Stone shape and freedom of movement however don’t just work for the warlock but the party and none of he spells I chose require concentration which gives warlock more options without breaking or wasting other features the class has access to. That’s my opinion on it.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Instrument of Balance and Words of Measure; You are getting a lot for not much investment. I think I'd limit Intrument of Balance to just Medium Armour & Shield proficincey and Proficiceny with Insight.
OP Reply: A lot of classes get a lot for a little at level 1, if anything warlocks are lacking there as a class because their level 1 starting is based on subclass so it looks like a lot until you compare it to a Cleric that gets class and subclass features as level 1 the same as a warlock should. Its actually a requirement of my goal that this subclass has to get heavy armor and shield at level 1, because it’s a Multi attribute dependent class and subclass. IF you note it lets you start with ring mail and a shield for AC16 which is ok for early levels but also does not require strength or dex. Most all other classes proficient in heavy start with AC16 chain mail at level 1 and shields for a possible AC18. So it seems like a lot but it actually still weaker than any other class going that melee enabled at level 1. Its also the reason so many people have issue trying to build pact of the blade warlocks. This subclass could invest into strength for high armor when they get the gold but then they would just be catching up at level 3 or higher. This is not so much getting a lot as it is that warlocks should get medium armor to begin with and don’t so to fall short a cleric or have an option to have an AC16 when needing to drop for strength and dexterity in order to get Charisma (for diplomacy and spell casting), wisdom (for perception and incite to navigate dangers and conversations), and Constitution (for maintaining the classes many necessary concentration spells only two chances most of play). You get no weapon proficiencies add and no offensive capabilities its pure early game survival and making it possible to play any of the pacts. I don’t think just heavy armor proficiency does anything here greater than any subclass from any other class, it just fixes a problem with warlocks in general.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Words of Measure I'd limit to +1 Language (Rilmani, and this is the language your patron always speaks to you in) then when you gain a Patron Feature at lvl 6, 10 & 14 you are taught an adiditon language from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Sylvan. This would make your language selection a little more tactical but means you won't gain them all.
OP Reply: That’s seems fair. They likely sent you prepared to a specific place not with every future location in mind. I did that because the second half of the feature is useless if you can’t talk to the target. Which is often something I have seen at games.
Quote from Rob76 >>
I'm not sure the paragraph that reads "The influence of your patron enables you to search for the true state of affairs in order to properly measure your actions and achieve the desired that balance." really marries up with the charm related spells. So I might switch that to something like the Rogue Inquisitive ability Ear for Deciet from Xanathars Guide (Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.). Also having Friends and Charm Person/Monster as spell tthat you can ignore the components on would be very powerful in the right/wrong hands so I'd leave that off.
OP Reply: It actually a fix for the charm spells. As it is no one at any table I play at will use the charm spells because components always mean the target knows what your doing. The only class that can use charm successfully it the sorcerer with the subtle spell meta magic. Warlocks are a class with invocations mask of many faces, beguiling influence, master of myriad forms, misty visons, one with shadows, sculptor of flesh, whispers of the grave, arcane eye, ghostly gaze, eldritch sight, eyes of the rune keeper, and devils sight to name a few geared to them being able to play a spy like character ….and yet even though charm person and charm monster are on their spell list they can’t use their magic to actually do anything when its time because of the components. People have been trying to house ruling some way for this to work since 5 came out so I made it part of the subclass and gave them the tools (languages to use them). The still have to invest their few known spells to be able to use charm person and charm monster but I wanted the feature to make itself available as an options so I give them the friends cantrip. Words of measure is not about making sure the words are honest so much as drawing information out of guards etc to know the real situation in city etc. Assurance of Truth is more what your aiming for with your suggestion. Perhaps my intent is not clear.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Dangerous Negotiatiions whilst flavourful is very overpowered for me as it does more than the Archfey Misty Escape ability and does it more often. In line with the notion of being interplanar negioitators I might change it to: "When you finish a long rest you can select one type of creature from the following: Celestial, Devil, Demon, Dragon, Fey. Creature of the selected type have difficulty harming you. If a creature of the selected type targets you directly with an attack or a harmful spell, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw
against your spell save DC (the creature needn't make the save when it includes you in an area effect, such as the explosion of fireball). On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or forfeit targeting someone instead of you, potentially wasting the attack or spell. On a successful save, the creature is immune to this effect for 24 hours. The creature is also immune to this effect for 24 hours if you target it with an attack or a harmful spell.". Effectively changing it to an almost always on Sanctuay spell.
OP Reply: I expected this reply. I get it. I said the same thing to my GM when he originally reviewed it. His statement to me, which rings true to my ears, was basically (I am paraphrasing) “Warlocks have always sucked at defense, which is why all most all of the subclasses have some added defensive measure. More over none of there defenses scale or defend against more than one type of attack. Compare warlocks a full caster class as defined by the PHB to a wizard with all their options and spell slots.” … He is right and that’s what I was originally thinking when I designed it. Is it way stronger than Archfey Misty Escape? Hell yes, because Archfey misty escape SUCKS and falls extremely short on providing any thing that could actually save a warlock. Just like Shield spell on the Hexblade it’s a trap. I have played several warlock and not once has there level 6 defense ability actually saved me and they all have one with the exception of the hexblade which gets greater armor, shield spell, blur, blink, and banishing smite…. That should tell you that even the game designers are aware that warlocks need some more defense by level 6 they can’t get from their spell slots. You may also note that the Newest UA the Genie permanent resistance to a type of damage starts with 3 uses and goes to 6. Is a catch all but you only start with 2 up to 4 and it recharges on short rest or long rest. Even in a day with 4 short rests…being targeted by the same mix of to hit, AoE, escape areas, or save or die attacks who would survive? Option 1 Any wizard, option 2 a warlock with this ability. I would bet on the wizard. However, … I still would not give this to warlock if they were given any offense with their subclass like the Hexblade for example… which you will note, I did not do. Not even weapon proficiencies. This is because warlocks have ways of being built in the base class that make them dangerous. What they don’t do well is defense (medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shields proficiency, and this ability) and conversations due to lack of insight and the ability to use their class spells such as friends, charm person, and charm monster.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Assurance of Truth: I'm not sure you'd ever need this at will, I think a single free casting per long rest would surfice and then also add it as a spell known so you can recast if needed. Expertise with Insight should be fine.
OP Reply: Zone of truth is a cool spell no one uses. I agree once is likely enough. My GM said make it at will because you’re not going to be able to use if often so if you need it twice in the same day that one time in a campaign its not a big deal. Insight expertise is an afterthought and was added to ensure player didn’t feel like this level up is a waste of a level 10 ability. It can verify Zone of truth so they play together, but it also means if your GM always has your target of Zone of truth guarded in such a way you can’t ever use Zone of truth you still have something form this feature. It might be fine as Expertise with Insight but I really wanted the role play aspect of using Zone of truth and if its not a class feature is don’t work with warlock. It is very much in line with this spy, informant, adjuster of the balance subclass. Perhaps, it would be better to drop insight from Instrument of Balance and put it here, but I worry without the insight to back up the conversation the class simply doesn’t work ate early levels. You could get it from a background but then this is redundant as just proficiency and the background becomes a tax if your not using custom backgrounds at your table, even though that’s a base rule not a variant.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Oh not sure how I feel about this, its a free 2nd lvl 7 Mystic Arcanum but I couldn't think of something other than having a free casting of Planar Ally instead...which would effectively be a free 2nd lvl 6 Mystic Arcanum but might be a bit more thematically approproate (you see a devil aiding some cultist so summon a celestial or demon to counter balance their influence, a chromatic dragon is terrorising a town so you summon a metallic dragon to aid the town etc).
OP Reply: I get the theme, but at the same time Plane Shift is travel spell…. So its not breaking anything being able to use it once a day more so when you don’t even need to travel right now and it provides some much needed flexibility to warlocks at higher levels. Really, Warlock Mystic Arcanum are so ridged I don’t know anyone personally who actually stayed warlock after level 12 and didn’t multi-class. On the other hand, Planar Ally can be an offensive combat spell which warlocks don’t need any more of. Honestly, even though Planner Ally is 6 instead of 7 (which is the level you should expect for a level 14 class feature) is more damaging and broken than Plane Shift which at its most powerful is a party escape button … again defensive.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Hope that helps.
Closing: It does help and I am interested to see your rebuttals if you take the time to read. I will also ask my GM to look over your comments. Maybe he has things to add in your favor. I will look into this a bit more before I start changing things.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well based on what you've noted above it seems your DM/GM is happy with it (even encourage more) so any discussion is largely moot. Given you mention filling several roles (Fighter, Spy, Diplomat and Messenger) it does seem like the subclass is trying to be too many things, now there are invocation that can replace some of the spells or aid with various roles in one way or another but just looking at those class abilities are enough to make me say "maybe not in my game" but I'll propose a few other amendments.
Spells: There are spells which would aid those roles better. Spy for instance can make use of Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye. Fighter Could make use of Blink or Blur. Messenger could use Message or Sending. Charm spells are already on the Warlock list so Diplomat is pretty much taken care of (more on this in a bit).
Instrument of Balance: So as not to outshine Hexblades from the start. leave it with Medium Amrour and Shield as bonus proficiencies, add the addition if you choose Pact of the Blade at level 3 you also recieve Heavy Armour Proficiency as part of the pact (reflecting training or instruction from a Ferrumach who are the soldiers of the Rilmani). Keep starting equipment can be Scale Mail and a Shield instead of Leather Armour etc but by the time you get around to choosing pacts you'd likely have come across some form of heavy armour to wear if you took the Pact of Blade.
Words of Measure: Just bear in mind removing the spell components does not remove the clause from the charm spells namely "When the spell ends the creature knows it was charmed by you". I might make an addition along the lines of "You gain proficiency with Insight and if you take the Pact of Tome at level 3, you learn one more language from Abyssal, Celestail etc and also gain expertise with in one skill you are proficient in and if you take pact of chain you gain prficiency with stealth and expertise in one skill you are proficicent int" just to differentiate those singled out for spying and dimplomacy roles.
So in short limit the potential roles to 3 with fighter types going down pact of blade, diplomats going down pact of tome and spy types going down pact of chain. This just serves to differentiate the potential roles the Rilmani recruit for rather than trying to be all things in all situations.
Dangerous Negiotiations: Still not something I would allow as you are not only teleporting 60ft as a reaction but you are also getting resistance to all damage + imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against + getting advatange on all saving throws until the end of your next turn and being abe to do it multiple times per short rest. I'd lean toward the sanctuary effect or maybe go for something akin to getting a restiance to Poison and/or Acid, both resistance would be inline with RIlmani abilities so although you are not turning into one it would reflect their power bolstering you or them watching out for you.
Assurance of Truth: thinking about it you could probably do more with passive Insight checks then you could with Zone of Truth. What about going for advantage on Insight checks? which mean if you go for passive abilities thats a +5 bonus (so at lvl 10 with a wisdom of 10 your passive Insight would be 19 or 23 if you took into account the other adjustment to Words of Measure I noted above). Also think that some meetings and negiotiations require a degree of obfuscation or out right lying so rocking up to a meeting and casting Zone of Truth might actually cause more problems than it solves. Granted this is not as impressive as having an At Will level 2 spell but is more respective of being a diplomat etc. Maybe combine it with advantage on Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation checks as well.
Far Travelling Arbitraitor: Don't forget Plane Shift is not just a travel/defensive spell......to quote the last paragraph "You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails this save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence" which is why I would be a little reluctant to have it as an ability, maybe switch it to Teleport if transportation is the main reason you put it in.
Sorry this is a lot to unpack and I was busy today. I am writing it on a word document so I don't lose progress with web page problems and I am 75% done but I have started getting a head ache (unrelated, I get them all the time and take medication for it). Its also late, so I am going to take some medicine and get some sleep and get you a response tomorrow. Sorry to make you wait.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Not wanting to add to any headache but just n extra note re some of my rationale...
The Rilmani are an interpalaner group with different subtype governing different things.
Abionach look over the elemental planes, Argenach act as covert advisors, Aurumach are teh leadres but seldom travel, Cuprilach are the spies and assassins, Ferrumach are the soldiers and Plumach are teh common folk that don't get invovled.
So having a patron of the Rilmani would mean (to me at least) that you are in service to one type or notable person within the ranks of the Rilmani so it might mean your pact was forged with a Cuprilach that needed a mortal to do some covert surveillance, or a pact with a Ferrumach was forged because they needed to "pressgang" or bolster the ranks of some mortals to help repel an attack or an Argenach needed someone to act as note taker and messenger between opposing sides whilst they manipulated from the shadows.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Dangerous Negiotiations: Still not something I would allow as you are not only teleporting 60ft as a reaction but you are also getting resistance to all damage + imposing disadvantage on all attack rolls against + getting advatange on all saving throws until the end of your next turn and being abe to do it multiple times per short rest. I'd lean toward the sanctuary effect or maybe go for something akin to getting a restiance to Poison and/or Acid, both resistance would be inline with RIlmani abilities so although you are not turning into one it would reflect their power bolstering you or them watching out for you.
OP Reply: I am going to say get this could be deal breaker. As such let’s try and fix it I am also posting it separately from the rest so it has its own focus. I want to keep the teleport because warlocks can’t cast misty step all day to get out of problems. However, lets drop the disadvantage and resistances. However, warlocks can’t counter spell all day either so keeping some lesser level of save bonus would help with that. The Archfey Misty Escape also refills on short or long rest so that’s not a problem. The resulting feature is significantly weaker then Misty escape because melee and ranged attack roles gain disadvantage for the rest of the turn vs assuming they can identify where the target is and spells that require you to see the target fail 100%. Sanctuary has sucked in every game I have ever seen it used, so I would never model a defensive ability after it. The Archfey Misty Escape is so very much better its not even comparable. I think reducing damage is not a bad answer, but perhaps just avoiding it is better. Archfey misty Escape has 3 draw backs, it doesn’t prevent the first attack, it’s doesn’t scale and one use is not enough for a major combat encounter. Shield spell on the other hand does prevent the first attack lasting until your turn, but doesn’t work on AoE damage which is not a problem because casters can usually just use absorb elements instead.
Dangerous Negotiations Rewrite 1: Less powerful than Archfey Misty Escape but more reliable. Unlike shield or Archfey it does not help you against additional attacks but it does help with saves to assist with the lack of counter spell. Which Archfey chives by removing you as a “creature you can see in range” target.
Starting at 6th level, your patron has granted you a defense against unruly negotiations. As a reaction to being the target of or within the area of effect of an attack, special ability, or spell of which you are aware, you can summon a temporary defensive barrier and teleport up to 20ft to a point you can see and gain a +2 to all saves until the start of your next turn. You can use this feature twice starting at 6th level. You gain an additional use of this feature at level 11 and 17. You regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Dangerous Negotiations Rewrite 2: Its gains one charge on short or long rest so it’s basically the same as Archfey misty escape after your first combat but with shorter range. In exchange it gets more uses up front and scales with level as is needed to fix single encounter days and losing its ability to actually help keep you alive at higher levels. Its dramatically more powerful than option 1 but I feel like your afraid of short rest recharges even though they are rarely useful in campaigns and the heart of warlock design so I made it exactly the same as misty step there which should reduce it power. The shorter distance also means its less of an escape and more of survive one round ability.
Starting at 6th level, your patron has granted you a defense against unruly negotiations. As a reaction to being the target of or within the area of effect of an attack, special ability, or spell of which you are aware, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 20 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. You can use this feature twice starting at 6th level. You gain an additional use of this feature at level 11 and 17. You regain one expended use when you finish a short or long rest.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Well based on what you've noted above it seems your DM/GM is happy with it (even encourage more) so any discussion is largely moot. Given you mention filling several roles (Fighter, Spy, Diplomat and Messenger) it does seem like the subclass is trying to be too many things, now there are invocation that can replace some of the spells or aid with various roles in one way or another but just looking at those class abilities are enough to make me say "maybe not in my game" but I'll propose a few other amendments.
OP Reply: Well that’s exactly why your criticism is needed. My and my GM maybe in a bubble. I want to see how it holds up to out side thought. However, scrutiny works both ways I can’t move the line at every suggestion on a whim. To that end a bit of back and forth debate lets you refine your point and me mind. Hopefully there is a bit of give on each and we at least find some fixes. The several roles for example, are something the player decides, but in many ways that could be one character. I think a spy, a messenger, and a diplomate are fundamentally “you travel to far places and talk to people and some people want to stop you” which is the role play side of D&D but role play with conflict losses meaning and failure to succeed in resolving it with words means fighting the consequences. I think in a lot of ways this is reflection of all warlocks I have seen already as I described in my Opening statement under warlock.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Spells: There are spells which would aid those roles better. Spy for instance can make use of Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye. Fighter Could make use of Blink or Blur. Messenger could use Message or Sending. Charm spells are already on the Warlock list so Diplomat is pretty much taken care of (more on this in a bit).
OP Reply: Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, Blur, and Sending are good for the roles you describe but not for warlocks because all but sending are concentration and none of them scale. I focused my list on very specific criteria and intent. #1. No concentration. That would cost them their first spell to use their only other spell slot. This is huge problem with the warlock spell selection anyway. I want to elevate it not compound it. #2. Combat spells need to scale and have duration but do no damage. Warlocks do enough damage and damaging spells are mostly traps since warlocks only have 2 spell slots for most of their life. Instead offensive spells need to be tactically beneficial or offer some defensive component. Command can be used to make people go prone so the party can get advantage on or attacks or flee with warlock moving the other direction for a 90ft separation in one turn in open spaces. Blindness/Deafness is similar but has different advantages for different party members and doesn’t work against enemies with blind since. #3. The spells should be useful for several styles of warlock play. Warlocks are loved for their flexibly just like Artificers. Taking away that flexibility is like slapping people in the face for taking something you offered and knew they wanted. Hexblade warlock, does not have to be pact of the blade. It plays just fine as pact of the tomb or pact of the chain some might argue its actually better when not used as pact of the blade because of feature overlap with pact of the blade.
Messenger or Sending are good spells but you want to warlock to engage in conversations not send notes. They end up avoiding the point of the subclass instead of aiding it. Blink is a good spell but it is concentration but Blindness/Deafness can server the same purpose, aids your party as well, and is less random without concentration so you don’t lose what every you choose as your main combat concentration spell when you try to defend yourself.
May I suggest instead of writing off my whole spell list, name specifically which ones you don’t like and why and if possible, pick a replacement that fits the theme of the subclass while complying to the three rules I am using above? I think if your point is more focused on a specific spell issue and avoids concentration your going to make better suggestions. As it is you said the list was good the suggested replacing the whole list.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Instrument of Balance: So as not to outshine Hexblades from the start. leave it with Medium Amrour and Shield as bonus proficiencies, add the addition if you choose Pact of the Blade at level 3 you also recieve Heavy Armour Proficiency as part of the pact (reflecting training or instruction from a Ferrumach who are the soldiers of the Rilmani). Keep starting equipment can be Scale Mail and a Shield instead of Leather Armour etc but by the time you get around to choosing pacts you'd likely have come across some form of heavy armour to wear if you took the Pact of Blade.
OP Reply: Hexblade is a damage subclass no amount of armor will out shine hexblades damage for someone who wants to do damage. All armor does is add survivability. On top of that why do you assume I would want heavy armor for Pact of the blade? Honestly, that would be my last pick. Pact of the Chain would be a better spy using a familiar (instead of one use concentration breaking arcane eye) and Pact of the tome can get message as a cantrip for a messenger, even pact of the talisman could work for the someone aiding one side to shift balance all still need defense and might want to drop Dexterity AND Strength making Ring Mail and shield the only ay for them to see AS16 and they likely will not go up from there. If your playing this subclass you will never be as powerful a melee fighter as a Hexblade because hexblade is all about damage and closing in for melee and cursing enemies…. This subclass is about traveling talking and not dying. There is no real over lap here and Pact of the Blade really your worst option… armor alone will not let this subclass work as tank or keep up with other classes in Melee DPR and the eldritch invocation might make it ok but hexblades, Undying vs undead, and the Celestial patron are all better pact of the blade options. Hands down.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Words of Measure: Just bear in mind removing the spell components does not remove the clause from the charm spells namely "When the spell ends the creature knows it was charmed by you". I might make an addition along the lines of "You gain proficiency with Insight and if you take the Pact of Tome at level 3, you learn one more language from Abyssal, Celestail etc and also gain expertise with in one skill you are proficient in and if you take pact of chain you gain proficiency with stealth and expertise in one skill you are proficient int" just to differentiate those singled out for spying and diplomacy roles.
OP Reply: I am completely aware of and ok with creatures knowing it was charmed AFTER you have gotten your information out of them and that the friends cantrip will make them hostile AFTER. The point is to be able to use it to begin with. Dealing with the consequences of using it part of the fun of the game. Also, like I said, I built the spell list with running away an hiding in mind. That is spot on for design intent. I don’t want pact of the tome a tax for using the subclass, but I am not apposed for being pushed a bit (with a Ring Mail option) by dropping it to one language from the list and “if you take pact of the tome at level 3 you gain 2 more languages from this list”… we need more draw for pact of the tomb and it’s a good fit for this subclass but insight is needed or the subclass is charismatic idiot and will fail at everything because he never understands what he is doing wrong. That’s not fun for a player to buy into the design then not be able to actually perform. It’s why rogue are more often faces than warlocks because even though warlocks dance all around it rogue get 4 skills at level 1 with a class list that includes insight, deception, intimidation, and persuasion, two of those can have expertise at level 1 and the other two at level. I don’t think its too much for Warlocks to choose intimidation as a class skill, spend an invocation at level 2 on Beguiling Influence (Deception and Persuasion), get incite from the subclass, and cast charm hidden up front but have to deal with the fall out later. A lot of people want to play the warlock this way and the Beguiling Influence invocation is proof of that but it is still just meeting minimums when a player is trying to choose this over rogue. As it is everyone, I know ended up going rogue. Which is part of the discussion in my first paragraph about why this warlock patron is different and needs to exist.
Quote from Rob76 >>
So in short limit the potential roles to 3 with fighter types going down pact of blade, diplomats going down pact of tome and spy types going down pact of chain. This just serves to differentiate the potential roles the Rilmani recruit for rather than trying to be all things in all situations.
OP Reply: The thing is your asking to add to choices by taking away from others. Heavy armor for example doesn’t have to be used for pact of blade, I have a pact of the chain tank who doesn’t use melee weapons but casts Toll the dead point blank. I had a pact of the tome before that took
Shillelagh as one of their tome cantrips and used charisma to fight with a club. The fun of warlock is that they are flexible in design. You should never limit it to one pact and Jeremy Crawford said that himself in a video about the hexblade. People think it was built for pact of the blade but almost every feature can be used with spells as well as melee. The only melee specific part is the second half HexWarrior which is not pact of the blade but melee specific so a pact of the tome could use a club with Shillelagh and use 100% of Hex Warrior. Only the last line means anything for pact of the blade because it allows pact of the blade to use two handed weapons as long as they are the pact weapon which only matters if you intend to drop the shield. Similarly, I am willing to give extra languages for Pact of the tome but that not limiting it to 3 roles, that’s a minor benefit if you pick a specific one.
< Omitted Dangerous Negiotiations discussion and placed it in its own reply>
Quote from Rob76 >>
Assurance of Truth: thinking about it you could probably do more with passive Insight checks then you could with Zone of Truth. What about going for advantage on Insight checks? which mean if you go for passive abilities thats a +5 bonus (so at lvl 10 with a wisdom of 10 your passive Insight would be 19 or 23 if you took into account the other adjustment to Words of Measure I noted above). Also think that some meetings and negiotiations require a degree of obfuscation or out right lying so rocking up to a meeting and casting Zone of Truth might actually cause more problems than it solves. Granted this is not as impressive as having an At Will level 2 spell but is more respective of being a diplomat etc. Maybe combine it with advantage on Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation checks as well.
OP Reply: You are 100% correct. At the same time, I went with zone of truth because on a spell list no one would pick it being to situational. It provides a role play option the game has always had that no one uses because it requires the right situation to use. I get advantage or expertise are more powerful options as I mentioned above. I do think its more interesting sub-class design to not go with the I win button and replicate rogues. This should appeal to people who want to role play out and navigate those negotiations and even the double-edged sword of perhaps requiring that you are in the circle … its interesting roleplay people would only use as a class feature. Its also so by design that Zone of Truth allows for obfuscation through omission which makes insight a requirement to use it functionally well. Having Expertise in insight both makes the feature work better but also provides an function of the feature that the player can use that is less random and obscure.
Quote from Rob76 >>
Far Travelling Arbitrator: Don't forget Plane Shift is not just a travel/defensive spell......to quote the last paragraph "You can use this spell to banish an unwilling creature to another plane. Choose a creature within your reach and make a melee spell attack against it. On a hit, the creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If the creature fails this save, it is transported to a random location on the plane of existence you specify. A creature so transported must find its own way back to your current plane of existence" which is why I would be a little reluctant to have it as an ability, maybe switch it to Teleport if transportation is the main reason you put it in.
OP Reply: That is fair, I just wanted the travel part. What if just put a rider to block that part?
Starting at 14th level, you gain the ability to pass between the planes and to teleportation circles on other plans as if with Plane Shift spell but without expending a spell slot. You are unable to use this ability to target unwilling creatures. Once you use this ability you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
Edit: I took another look at this. Instead of "giving a free Mystical Arcanum" which was your complaint. What about giving them some flexibility to choose a different warlock spell for their arcanum? Warlocks already have Plane shift on there list and being able to use it twice means they would be the only class capable of jumping to a plain and back in a single day by them-self. Instead I came up with this:
Traveling Arbitrator
Starting at 14th level, you gain the ability substitute your Mystical Arcanum with another warlock spell of equal or lower level to help you in your travels to distant lands.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
Minimum Arcanum level Required Substitutions available
6th Arcane Gate, True seeing
7th Etherealness, Plane Shift
8th Demiplane, Glibness
9th Astral Projection, True Polymorph
It addresses one of the biggest complaints about high level warlocks, while not even being as powerful as other casters and without adding any additional casting of spells yet, I get supper excited about it. I mean it really just a once a day option to change a prepared spell which warlocks are the only class to be stuck with one option for life.
Note: I like the some of the re-writes that came out of this conversation and there is enough I feel an update is reasonable. I will make the change and link the new version in the original post as a note.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well yes, but your just talking about players defining there back story, party role, and build of this subclass by their choices in skills, feats, invocations, and attribute priorities. I don't disagree at all with what your saying. I am just noting that all the Patrons for warlock are the same way and these choices are left for the player and GM to work out. So I will leave my design with that standard of flexibility in mind knowing that players are going to have to work out their back story and how they want to use it same as any other warlock patron or even any other class.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I'll be honest..I skim read pretty much everything you put above....I not only use a heavily homebrewed character creation process (so some of the concerns you have about a class/subclass may not be something apparent to me or my game) but I try to tweak and adjust warlock patrons (not to mention of class spell lists) to fit individual characters, so a fiend lock with a Draegloth patron will have different spells and abilities than a fiend lock with Asmodeus for a patron and a fey lock with Hyrsam as a paton will have slightly different powers to some one with the Queen of Air and Darkness. I should probably remember this more often when replying to posts.
So when I look at a subclass and see all the things it is trying to do, before thinking about build/feats/invocations/multiclass combos, I ask myself "do these abilities and spells make sense and do they represent the patron invovled?", so for your subclass I then started to think that it needs to be more easily defined by what the role of each respective patron is and what each rilmani patron would likely offer.
Now they may all have a set of core abilities that all their warlocks get but there should, to my mind, be some "flexible" benefit attached that changes depending on the patron involved, much like the spell list and type of resistances you get for a Genie patron are slightly different depending on the type of genie ivolved. You could even build the subclass like the Barbarian Path of the Totem Warrior so you get a choice of "training" whenever you gain a class feature and refelct the various jobs you've been doing for the Rilmani.
To close...I do like the change to Far Travelling Arbitrator with the choices of switching arcnum spells each long rest
PS....apparently your updated version is in your trash folder and not viewable....
Well I appreciate the input. I added Pact specific bonuses which and made several improvement based on our conversations. So thank you. The link works for me but its possible you grabbed it while I was switching to the update. I might have different access, so I will get someone else to try it if I can to troubleshoot. If you try it now... it might work for you.
I do like the Genie design and I get what your saying but I can't account for every possible patron, pact, and player role. It makes since that a GM would tweek it as you are doing. All I can do is make the best base I can. I suspect that is part of why only a few classes branch that way. When they branch they make poeple happy however warlock is already very flexible compared to other classes so I feel its a requirement of sub classes.
Are there any specific spells on the list you feel are a problem?
How do you feel about my latest version of Dangerous Negiotiations?
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
It reads like a one round version of blink so should be ok.
Cool. that is what based it one. It's actually weaker than that because deliberately left it so they know where you are and can fallow you to where you will return. Which blink does not do.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.