like all the diffrent arcane traditions are good at diffrent things, the arcane tradition of evocation happens to focus on combat, but it feels like what the evocation wizard gets compared to what other arcane traditions get and what the subclasses of other classes get, it feels like they get a bit shafted, like compared to the other arcane traditions who are just so damm rad, this subclass feels sad in comparison
at 2nd level, the enchantment wizard gets a feature that can be used once per long rest per target that lets them incapacitate somebody for an potentially inedfinite time, the transmuter gets an feature that lets them turn worthless copper into valuable silver and sturdy stone into brittle wood for a short time, the conjuration wizard gets a feature that lets them get spell components for free and that can also be used for massive utillity, the diviner can completely redirect fate in their favour, the abjuration wizard gets some amount of sturdiness in battle and at the same level the evocation wizard gets to not harm his allies when casting AoE evocation spells, perhaps not the worst feature but not the best ether.
at 6th level, when the diviner gets to abuse their spell slots completely, the conjuration wizard gets an feature that lets them teleport oh so frequently, the transmuter gets an really good utillity feature that they can use themselves or give to a friend and the necromancer suddenly becomes the best class for necromancy due to one class feature, the evocation wizard gets to sometimes deal a little damage if his target suceeds on their saving throw against your cantrip, great if you use toll the dead, frostbite or acid splash a lot, not so great if you are using primarily fire bolt.
at 10th level, you get to add your intelegnce modifier to the damage of your wizard evocation spells, an neat feature but most other subclasses like dragonic sorcerer, alchemist and celestial warlock get similar features at 6th level or sometimes even earlier, very few campaigns ever reach this point and so this is pretty late in the game to get this feature, better late than never but not very good, yeah it is a little more versatile than those other features but not by all that much
and then at 14th level you get an actiually pretty good abillity, very fun but also very dangerous if used more than once, just maximizing two third level fireballs would deal 15d12 damage in total assuming you have aleady used overchannel once, but the game does not force you to use overchannel, and maximizing damage is a really really powerful abillity, you can choose to use it recklessly all the time or you can be careful about when to use it, it is indeed up to you
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I agree, empowered evocation should be a level 6 feature and potent cantrip a level 2 and replace the useless evocation savant, overchannel should work like the level 14 feature of the chronurgist wizard.
The balance for evocation wizards is their second level ability scales up as they get higher level spells. Being able to drop a fireball on top of their allies without harming them is incredibly effective once the chaos of melee has started and it’s not possible to hit all of your opponents with the spell without also hitting your allies. I agree that the 6th level ability is kind of meh, but it’s almost as useful as a Warlock’s Agonizing Blast Eldritch Invocation and for the same reason. It significantly powers up Cantrips, the reason it’s kind of meh is because wizards at higher levels don’t use cantrips in combat very often. Other than that it’s pretty great.
yeah sculpt spells is fantastic and will of course motivate you to do some otherwise risky things since you can do so consequence free, its just that i personally feel all the other 2nd level features seem better, and shure potent cantrips makes shure you dont waste a turn, but it is just so restrictive, maybe if it also let missed spell attacks hit, or provided an benefit to your normal spells as well it would likely be less shit, but as of now its like eh.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
All the wizard sub-classes are extremely lacking when compared to the sub-classes of other classes, sorcerers, warlocks clerics and druids are significantly better blasters.
i just went on an massive rant about how great all the other wizard subclasses are and i am really curious as to how you came to that conclusion, especially how in the actiual hell you think clerics and druids are better blasters when they have few good damage dealing spells and next to no class or subclass features that in any way empower their spells, the best thing they got is good crowd control / debuffs with stuff like bane, spike growth, entangle and a few good early level single target spells like inflict wounds and guiding bolt, but that would in no way make them any better blasters than wizards, who get all kinds of good straight damage dealing spells of all shapes and sizes, like what the **** dude you really need to elaborate on what you mean
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
All the cleric subclasses can deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage with all their cantrips, including toll the dead which is the one with the highest damage in the game, and all their spells, and they get this feature 2 levels earlier than the evocation wizard, tempest clerics at level 2 get destructive wrath which is like overchannel but is not limited to level 5 spells and they can use it much more often since it doesn't damage them and they get it back after a short rest.
Circle of the stars druids as a bonus action can deals 1d8 + Wisdom radiant damage, they get this at level 2. So in the end the evocation wizard turns out to be the one that does the least damage despite the purpose of the subclass should be to do damage.
But it is not only the evocation wizard, for example try to compare a shepherd druid and a conjuration wizard or a glamour bard and an enchantment wizard, the wizard is always the least effective.
Overchannel is far more powerful than Destructive Wrath. First of all, it can be used on any type of damage-dealing spells, not just thunder or lightning spells (which Tempest Clerics only have four choices for). Second of all, it's activated when you cast the spell and stays on for the spell's entire duration, while Destructive Wrath only goes off on a damage roll. Third, Evokers have dramatically more options for spells that hit large areas while Tempest Clerics don't. You can drop a Cone of Cold, which is going to hit most of a battlefield if you cast it in the right place, or throw out a Cloudkill and have it deal automatic 40 damage per round. You can't pull things like that with Destructive Wrath.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
All the cleric subclasses can deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage with all their cantrips,
first of all that is just straight up false. Some have an extra d8 of damage to all their weapon attacks, some get to add their wisdom modifier to the damage dealt by cantrips and the classvariants UA, as of yet unofficial, is the only way to do that.
tempest clerics at level 2 get destructive wrath which is like overchannel but is not limited to level 5 spells and they can use it much more often since it doesn't damage them and they get it back after a short rest.
tempest is fantastic yes, but it is only two damage types so you can only use it with your domain spells, and it is only one damage roll so it would be great if they had the lighting bolt spell but they dont, also see the dude above who wrote an entire thing on why overchannel is better
Circle of the stars druids as a bonus action can deals 1d8 + Wisdom radiant damage, they get this at level 2. So in the end the evocation wizard turns out to be the one that does the least damage despite the purpose of the subclass should be to do damage.
again, it is unearthed arcana, recently released, as of yet unofficial material that might become official later. You cannot use these, especially not to justify that the druid and cleric are better blasters in general. Unearthed arcana is deliberately a little overtuned, becuase it is easier for the design crew to make something strong and then nerf it, than it is for them to make something weak and buff it. UNEARTHED ARCANA IS PLAYTEST MATERIAL!
But it is not only the evocation wizard, for example try to compare a shepherd druid and a conjuration wizard or a glamour bard and an enchantment wizard, the wizard is always the least effective.
comparing the shepperd druid and the conjuration wizard is like comparing apples and oranges, they are not the same, one is focused on support and on summoning other creatures to fight on your behalf, the conjuration wizard focuses on representing the school of conjuration as a whole, that is why you get abilities for teleportation, for summoning small items (that can help you pay of material components), as well as an effect to stop you from loosing concentration.
As for the glamour bard, you also cannot compare them becuase they do very diffrent things, yes both sort of focus on enchantments, but the glamour bard has one utillity feature at level 3 and the rest of them are all more or less combat gimmics, wheras the enchantment wizard gets a lot of utillity, especially at 10th and 14th level with split enchantment and alter memories that just makes their spells better
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Overchannel is far more powerful than Destructive Wrath. First of all, it can be used on any type of damage-dealing spells, not just thunder or lightning spells (which Tempest Clerics only have four choices for). Second of all, it's activated when you cast the spell and stays on for the spell's entire duration, while Destructive Wrath only goes off on a damage roll. Third, Evokers have dramatically more options for spells that hit large areas while Tempest Clerics don't. You can drop a Cone of Cold, which is going to hit most of a battlefield if you cast it in the right place, or throw out a Cloudkill and have it deal automatic 40 damage per round. You can't pull things like that with Destructive Wrath.
Overchannel can only be used on evocations spells and a wizard can use it once before killing itself, but more importantly they get this feature at level 14 and as artificemeal said many campaigns don't even reach level 10.
A level 8 tempest cleric can use destructive wrath 2 times per short rest while also adding 1d8 do their damage rolls, a level 8 evoker still has nothing to improve spell damage.
Overchannel is far more powerful than Destructive Wrath. First of all, it can be used on any type of damage-dealing spells, not just thunder or lightning spells (which Tempest Clerics only have four choices for). Second of all, it's activated when you cast the spell and stays on for the spell's entire duration, while Destructive Wrath only goes off on a damage roll. Third, Evokers have dramatically more options for spells that hit large areas while Tempest Clerics don't. You can drop a Cone of Cold, which is going to hit most of a battlefield if you cast it in the right place, or throw out a Cloudkill and have it deal automatic 40 damage per round. You can't pull things like that with Destructive Wrath.
Overchannel can only be used on evocations spells and a wizard can use it once before killing itself, but more importantly they get this feature at level 14 and as artificemeal said many campaigns don't even reach level 10.
A level 8 tempest cleric can use destructive wrath 2 times per short rest while also adding 1d8 do their damage rolls, a level 8 evoker still has nothing to improve spell damage.
***** the add 1d8 radiant to the damage of spells is an unearthed arcana feature, it is still in its playtest phase and has yet to be printed in an official book, and the sheer number of spells an wizard has acess to that can benefit from overchannel is way more than the handful of domain spells an tempest cleric gets that can benefit from wrath of the storm, if the cleric had spells that could be upcast properly it would be another story, destructive wrath, the highest level spell you have that deals thunder or lightning damage you have acess to only deals 30 thunder damage when benefiting from destructive wrath plus 5d6 radiant or necrotic damage, only affecting a small 30 ft radius, wheras cone of cold when combined with overchannel deals 64 cold damage and affecting an 60 ft cone, and as the gentleman above mentioned, overchannel lasts for the full duration of the spell, so you could for instance cast dawn and deal about 40 radiant damage PER TURN
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Overchannel is far more powerful than Destructive Wrath. First of all, it can be used on any type of damage-dealing spells, not just thunder or lightning spells (which Tempest Clerics only have four choices for). Second of all, it's activated when you cast the spell and stays on for the spell's entire duration, while Destructive Wrath only goes off on a damage roll. Third, Evokers have dramatically more options for spells that hit large areas while Tempest Clerics don't. You can drop a Cone of Cold, which is going to hit most of a battlefield if you cast it in the right place, or throw out a Cloudkill and have it deal automatic 40 damage per round. You can't pull things like that with Destructive Wrath.
Overchannel can only be used on evocations spells and a wizard can use it once before killing itself, but more importantly they get this feature at level 14 and as artificemeal said many campaigns don't even reach level 10.
A level 8 tempest cleric can use destructive wrath 2 times per short rest while also adding 1d8 do their damage rolls, a level 8 evoker still has nothing to improve spell damage.
***** the add 1d8 radiant to the damage of spells is an unearthed arcana feature, it is still in its playtest phase and has yet to be printed in an official book, and the sheer number of spells an wizard has acess to that can benefit from overchannel is way more than the handful of domain spells an tempest cleric gets that can benefit from wrath of the storm, if the cleric had spells that could be upcast properly it would be another story, destructive wrath, the highest level spell you have that deals thunder or lightning damage you have acess to only deals 30 thunder damage when benefiting from destructive wrath plus 5d6 radiant or necrotic damage, only affecting a small 30 ft radius, wheras cone of cold when combined with overchannel deals 64 cold damage and affecting an 60 ft cone, and as the gentleman above mentioned, overchannel lasts for the full duration of the spell, so you could for instance cast dawn and deal about 40 radiant damage PER TURN
Tempest clerics can also upcast shatter and call lightning and the new U.A should become official in a few months, I don't think they will change blessed strikes.
Even if Blessed Strikes gets added, it's still subject to DM approval, many GMs follow the 1 and 1 rule so if you're using Xanathar's Guide or Explorer's Guide To Wildmonte content it might not be allowed anyway.
Meanwhile, the absolute best that a Tempest Cleric could do at 14th level is using a 7th level slot to cast Call Lightning while in a thunderstorm. This allows you to inflict... 8d8 damage, maximized to 64. Exactly the same as the Evoker dropping a Cone of Cold. Except that the Evoker is, as previously mentioned striking a large part of the battlefield with that cone while the lightning bolt from Call Lightning has a 10 ft radius.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Even if Blessed Strikes gets added, it's still subject to DM approval, many GMs follow the 1 and 1 rule so if you're using Xanathar's Guide or Explorer's Guide To Wildmonte content it might not be allowed anyway.
Meanwhile, the absolute best that a Tempest Cleric could do at 14th level is using a 7th level slot to cast Call Lightning while in a thunderstorm. This allows you to inflict... 8d8 damage, maximized to 64. Exactly the same as the Evoker dropping a Cone of Cold. Except that the Evoker is, as previously mentioned striking a large part of the battlefield with that cone while the lightning bolt from Call Lightning has a 10 ft radius.
Yes but they can use it twice per short rest so it's better overall, however this discussion has become too focused on the tempest cleric when the point was that for a subclass that is supposed be a blaster the evocation wizard does too little damage.
When the DM has allowed it, I’ve swapped the sculpt spell and potent cantrip ability levels and it really brings the Subclass to life and makes it feel useful and balanced. Everything else about the subclass fits it’s theme and power levels well I think. As the subclass sits RAW I think the ability order would be fine if potent cantrip also did half damage for attack cantrips not just save cantrips. Just my thoughts though.
I think potent cantrip would be fine if there were just a couple more damage-dealing evocation cantrips that went off saving throws rather than attack rolls added to the wizard list. Thunderclap and Frostbite don't really cut it.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
like all the diffrent arcane traditions are good at diffrent things, the arcane tradition of evocation happens to focus on combat, but it feels like what the evocation wizard gets compared to what other arcane traditions get and what the subclasses of other classes get, it feels like they get a bit shafted, like compared to the other arcane traditions who are just so damm rad, this subclass feels sad in comparison
at 2nd level, the enchantment wizard gets a feature that can be used once per long rest per target that lets them incapacitate somebody for an potentially inedfinite time, the transmuter gets an feature that lets them turn worthless copper into valuable silver and sturdy stone into brittle wood for a short time, the conjuration wizard gets a feature that lets them get spell components for free and that can also be used for massive utillity, the diviner can completely redirect fate in their favour, the abjuration wizard gets some amount of sturdiness in battle and at the same level the evocation wizard gets to not harm his allies when casting AoE evocation spells, perhaps not the worst feature but not the best ether.
at 6th level, when the diviner gets to abuse their spell slots completely, the conjuration wizard gets an feature that lets them teleport oh so frequently, the transmuter gets an really good utillity feature that they can use themselves or give to a friend and the necromancer suddenly becomes the best class for necromancy due to one class feature, the evocation wizard gets to sometimes deal a little damage if his target suceeds on their saving throw against your cantrip, great if you use toll the dead, frostbite or acid splash a lot, not so great if you are using primarily fire bolt.
at 10th level, you get to add your intelegnce modifier to the damage of your wizard evocation spells, an neat feature but most other subclasses like dragonic sorcerer, alchemist and celestial warlock get similar features at 6th level or sometimes even earlier, very few campaigns ever reach this point and so this is pretty late in the game to get this feature, better late than never but not very good, yeah it is a little more versatile than those other features but not by all that much
and then at 14th level you get an actiually pretty good abillity, very fun but also very dangerous if used more than once, just maximizing two third level fireballs would deal 15d12 damage in total assuming you have aleady used overchannel once, but the game does not force you to use overchannel, and maximizing damage is a really really powerful abillity, you can choose to use it recklessly all the time or you can be careful about when to use it, it is indeed up to you
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I agree, empowered evocation should be a level 6 feature and potent cantrip a level 2 and replace the useless evocation savant, overchannel should work like the level 14 feature of the chronurgist wizard.
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The balance for evocation wizards is their second level ability scales up as they get higher level spells. Being able to drop a fireball on top of their allies without harming them is incredibly effective once the chaos of melee has started and it’s not possible to hit all of your opponents with the spell without also hitting your allies. I agree that the 6th level ability is kind of meh, but it’s almost as useful as a Warlock’s Agonizing Blast Eldritch Invocation and for the same reason. It significantly powers up Cantrips, the reason it’s kind of meh is because wizards at higher levels don’t use cantrips in combat very often. Other than that it’s pretty great.
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yeah sculpt spells is fantastic and will of course motivate you to do some otherwise risky things since you can do so consequence free, its just that i personally feel all the other 2nd level features seem better, and shure potent cantrips makes shure you dont waste a turn, but it is just so restrictive, maybe if it also let missed spell attacks hit, or provided an benefit to your normal spells as well it would likely be less shit, but as of now its like eh.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
All the wizard sub-classes are extremely lacking when compared to the sub-classes of other classes, sorcerers, warlocks clerics and druids are significantly better blasters.
i just went on an massive rant about how great all the other wizard subclasses are and i am really curious as to how you came to that conclusion, especially how in the actiual hell you think clerics and druids are better blasters when they have few good damage dealing spells and next to no class or subclass features that in any way empower their spells, the best thing they got is good crowd control / debuffs with stuff like bane, spike growth, entangle and a few good early level single target spells like inflict wounds and guiding bolt, but that would in no way make them any better blasters than wizards, who get all kinds of good straight damage dealing spells of all shapes and sizes, like what the **** dude you really need to elaborate on what you mean
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
All the cleric subclasses can deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage with all their cantrips, including toll the dead which is the one with the highest damage in the game, and all their spells, and they get this feature 2 levels earlier than the evocation wizard, tempest clerics at level 2 get destructive wrath which is like overchannel but is not limited to level 5 spells and they can use it much more often since it doesn't damage them and they get it back after a short rest.
Circle of the stars druids as a bonus action can deals 1d8 + Wisdom radiant damage, they get this at level 2. So in the end the evocation wizard turns out to be the one that does the least damage despite the purpose of the subclass should be to do damage.
But it is not only the evocation wizard, for example try to compare a shepherd druid and a conjuration wizard or a glamour bard and an enchantment wizard, the wizard is always the least effective.
Overchannel is far more powerful than Destructive Wrath. First of all, it can be used on any type of damage-dealing spells, not just thunder or lightning spells (which Tempest Clerics only have four choices for). Second of all, it's activated when you cast the spell and stays on for the spell's entire duration, while Destructive Wrath only goes off on a damage roll. Third, Evokers have dramatically more options for spells that hit large areas while Tempest Clerics don't. You can drop a Cone of Cold, which is going to hit most of a battlefield if you cast it in the right place, or throw out a Cloudkill and have it deal automatic 40 damage per round. You can't pull things like that with Destructive Wrath.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
first of all that is just straight up false. Some have an extra d8 of damage to all their weapon attacks, some get to add their wisdom modifier to the damage dealt by cantrips and the classvariants UA, as of yet unofficial, is the only way to do that.
tempest is fantastic yes, but it is only two damage types so you can only use it with your domain spells, and it is only one damage roll so it would be great if they had the lighting bolt spell but they dont, also see the dude above who wrote an entire thing on why overchannel is better
again, it is unearthed arcana, recently released, as of yet unofficial material that might become official later. You cannot use these, especially not to justify that the druid and cleric are better blasters in general. Unearthed arcana is deliberately a little overtuned, becuase it is easier for the design crew to make something strong and then nerf it, than it is for them to make something weak and buff it. UNEARTHED ARCANA IS PLAYTEST MATERIAL!
comparing the shepperd druid and the conjuration wizard is like comparing apples and oranges, they are not the same, one is focused on support and on summoning other creatures to fight on your behalf, the conjuration wizard focuses on representing the school of conjuration as a whole, that is why you get abilities for teleportation, for summoning small items (that can help you pay of material components), as well as an effect to stop you from loosing concentration.
As for the glamour bard, you also cannot compare them becuase they do very diffrent things, yes both sort of focus on enchantments, but the glamour bard has one utillity feature at level 3 and the rest of them are all more or less combat gimmics, wheras the enchantment wizard gets a lot of utillity, especially at 10th and 14th level with split enchantment and alter memories that just makes their spells better
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Overchannel can only be used on evocations spells and a wizard can use it once before killing itself, but more importantly they get this feature at level 14 and as artificemeal said many campaigns don't even reach level 10.
A level 8 tempest cleric can use destructive wrath 2 times per short rest while also adding 1d8 do their damage rolls, a level 8 evoker still has nothing to improve spell damage.
***** the add 1d8 radiant to the damage of spells is an unearthed arcana feature, it is still in its playtest phase and has yet to be printed in an official book, and the sheer number of spells an wizard has acess to that can benefit from overchannel is way more than the handful of domain spells an tempest cleric gets that can benefit from wrath of the storm, if the cleric had spells that could be upcast properly it would be another story, destructive wrath, the highest level spell you have that deals thunder or lightning damage you have acess to only deals 30 thunder damage when benefiting from destructive wrath plus 5d6 radiant or necrotic damage, only affecting a small 30 ft radius, wheras cone of cold when combined with overchannel deals 64 cold damage and affecting an 60 ft cone, and as the gentleman above mentioned, overchannel lasts for the full duration of the spell, so you could for instance cast dawn and deal about 40 radiant damage PER TURN
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Tempest clerics can also upcast shatter and call lightning and the new U.A should become official in a few months, I don't think they will change blessed strikes.
Even if Blessed Strikes gets added, it's still subject to DM approval, many GMs follow the 1 and 1 rule so if you're using Xanathar's Guide or Explorer's Guide To Wildmonte content it might not be allowed anyway.
Meanwhile, the absolute best that a Tempest Cleric could do at 14th level is using a 7th level slot to cast Call Lightning while in a thunderstorm. This allows you to inflict... 8d8 damage, maximized to 64. Exactly the same as the Evoker dropping a Cone of Cold. Except that the Evoker is, as previously mentioned striking a large part of the battlefield with that cone while the lightning bolt from Call Lightning has a 10 ft radius.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes but they can use it twice per short rest so it's better overall, however this discussion has become too focused on the tempest cleric when the point was that for a subclass that is supposed be a blaster the evocation wizard does too little damage.
While evocation may be kind of meh, it is still cool to have it. However, they should add extra powers to it
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I totally agree.
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When the DM has allowed it, I’ve swapped the sculpt spell and potent cantrip ability levels and it really brings the Subclass to life and makes it feel useful and balanced. Everything else about the subclass fits it’s theme and power levels well I think. As the subclass sits RAW I think the ability order would be fine if potent cantrip also did half damage for attack cantrips not just save cantrips. Just my thoughts though.
I think potent cantrip would be fine if there were just a couple more damage-dealing evocation cantrips that went off saving throws rather than attack rolls added to the wizard list. Thunderclap and Frostbite don't really cut it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Kind of meh ???
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