I am trying to make a character who is a follower of Eilistraee. To make a long story short someone recommend using the Bladesinger class to meet the requirements of use of blades and I can use spells. I was looking a spells and feats, since I am worried about a melee mage.
My question: does the following sound legal. With Bladesinger my movement is increased by 10ft. If I take the mobile feat, my movement is increased another 10ft and when I target a creature for an attack a can ignore attack of opportunity from that creature. With the spell expeditious retreat, I can use dash as a bonus action. On my third turn (first turn for bladesong, second for expeditious retreat) I could move 100ft as a bonus action, so I could travel 50ft attack a creature and retreat 50th to safety.
Yes, that works. Just remember you're only avoiding opportunity attacks from the creature you attacked, so you still have to steer clear of other enemies.
You only need two turns to set this up. Expeditious Retreat allows you to Dash on the turn you cast the spell.
I'd also recommend looking at the blink spell once you gain access to level 3 spells. First turn activate bladesong and cast blink.. this should help you survive by eliminating you as a possible target for half the combat.. Also gives a pretty cool spellblade vibe.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don’t like Blink personally, but Blur (and Protection from Evil & Good when applicable) is tremendously good for a Bladesinger. Assuming an average of 20 AC and being attacked at disadvantage all the time, you’ll probably be untouchable.
Interesting, I haven't yet had a chance to use blink so my advice was purely theoretical. What is it about blink you don't like? On paper it seems really strong.
Blur is certainly strong but I'd rather use my cocentration for other things myself.
I'm unsure about Ir0ns0ul's reason for not liking Blink, for my own personal reasons I don't like it because it removes you from combat until the start of your next turn. While this is extremely beneficial when trying to avoid damage, but it also means you lose out on any Reaction you might have taken or benefits that anyone of your allies might have bestowed on you.
Being a member of a party and losing out using that Counterspell in a critical moment or just getting off an OA on an enemy trying to get some distance between the party and themselves it's not really worth it. Then again there is the fact that with you not being on the field during all of your allies turns, you miss out on any heals, buffs or strategies that the party might attempt to use.
To Sum up - Blink: Great spell for yourself, bad for the party as a whole.
Hmm I can definitely see the issue with losing out on your reaction being an issue.. I also imagine a lot of bladesingers have the warcaster feat which is kinda negated if you don't get to use your reaction and never get hit (although never getting hit a a luxury problem :P)
I would think that it does benefit the party to an extent though? Without you being there to take damage, it leaves the support characters to focus on more tanky characters who are ment to be the focus of the enemy's attention.. It sort of takes away from pressure of the party dynamic of that sense.
The only alternative to blink as a defensive spell I can see, is mirror image.. WHich isn't super great for bladesingers due to mirror image not making use of their high AC.. Blur is of course good, but I feel like bladesinger's main strength as a melee fighter is the ability to buff the offensive prowess with spells like shadowblade, haste or spiritshroud.. all of which requires your concentration.
It's true that support might be able to focus more on other characters, but also means that if you're in desperate need but you're not their when they heal the entire party, you don't get the heals. Which can lead to a lot of problems if you're able to blink the next round and get targeted immediately by the big bad, so on so forth. I'm not saying it's not a bad spell, it's wonderful. But it has it's downsides to it when you're not around to get all those benefits from allies and I don't mean just healing. Any kind of buff, like beacon of hope, bless, etc.
It's true that mirror image doesn't really take advantage of the Bladesinger's high AC because it just directs the attacks towards the illusion before you even know if it would hit or not. Though it is not a concentration spell so even though it doesn't take advantage of the high AC it is still 3 opportunities that you avoid getting hit all together.
Bladesinger is by far my favorite class because I love the versatility of being able to be up close and personal with enemies or even deciding to step back and just be that spell slinging wizard that you are. So as far as beneficial spells I can agree with you about wanting to use those spells that buff your Physical abilities. Personally Haste is my go to spell just because of that Haste Action, increased speed, and AC. Getting those 3 attacks, being able to cast booming blade/green flame blade as part of the attack action and once you're Lvl 14 adding your Intel Mod to the damage makes you an amazing front line fighter.
Of course Haste has it's downside, with the whole once it ends you can't use reaction, actions or movement, but then it would need the cost to be amazing.
Yea, I've always thought bladesingers sounded really cool.. I'd 100% learn as much into being a melee glass cannon as possible and only use typical wizard spells for situational purposes.. I really like the idea of this super deadly but squishy tornado of death. For someone who thinks 5e martials classes lack options and customization.. a spellsinger is like having a martial character with a crazy amount of ability choices which is just really neat imo.
I feel like spirit shroud is potentially a lot more powerful than haste in terms of damage output.. but obviously haste grants a bunch of other advantages...
I feel kinda guilty.. my current character is a necormancer, and I'm already planning to play a bladesinger if he ever gets killed... I dunno if it's sort of lame to reroll the same class.. but my vision for a furture bladesinger may aswell be a completely different class than my necormancer.. so I think it's alright... Just a bit odd..
So if we take a Lvl 6 Bladesinger and look at the average damage per round saying that we hit every attack
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage per hit for a total average of 9 damage
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 3 (Using Point buy to give you an 16 in Dex) in damage.
If we bump the Bladesinger level up to 13 Here is the average
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage total of 9 damage a turn. At 5th 9 damage per hit, for a total of 18. At 7th it would 13.5 per hit, for a total of 27
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 4 (Assuming your Dex is now 18 at least) in damage.
The Lastly we'll take that Bladesinger up to Level 20
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage total of 9 damage a turn. At 5th 9 damage per hit, for a total of 18. At 7th it would 13.5 per hit, for a total of 27. And then Cast at 9th Level it would do 18 per hit, for a total of 36.
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 5 + 5 (Hoping Dex and Int are maxed) in damage.
So yes, if you're looking for over all damage Spirit Shroud would be the choice to make, though once you're level 14 Haste would do damage if you compared level to level with the spells, but as you can see Spirit Shroud quickly over takes haste just be up casting to 5th.
So while you do get better damage on average from Spirit Shroud, you lose a bunch of benefits by not having Haste. So which spell is better over all would all depend on the combat you in. Do you need that extra movement, attack and AC or are you just aiming to make every hit do that much more damage.
Hmm I can definitely see the issue with losing out on your reaction being an issue.. I also imagine a lot of bladesingers have the warcaster feat which is kinda negated if you don't get to use your reaction and never get hit (although never getting hit a a luxury problem :P)
I would think that it does benefit the party to an extent though? Without you being there to take damage, it leaves the support characters to focus on more tanky characters who are ment to be the focus of the enemy's attention.. It sort of takes away from pressure of the party dynamic of that sense.
The only alternative to blink as a defensive spell I can see, is mirror image.. WHich isn't super great for bladesingers due to mirror image not making use of their high AC.. Blur is of course good, but I feel like bladesinger's main strength as a melee fighter is the ability to buff the offensive prowess with spells like shadowblade, haste or spiritshroud.. all of which requires your concentration.
you can't shadowblade with the melee cantrips. That's something to consider.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So if we take a Lvl 6 Bladesinger and look at the average damage per round saying that we hit every attack
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage per hit for a total average of 9 damage
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 3 (Using Point buy to give you an 16 in Dex) in damage.
If we bump the Bladesinger level up to 13 Here is the average
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage total of 9 damage a turn. At 5th 9 damage per hit, for a total of 18. At 7th it would 13.5 per hit, for a total of 27
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 4 (Assuming your Dex is now 18 at least) in damage.
The Lastly we'll take that Bladesinger up to Level 20
For Spirit Shroud when making two attacks every turn. At 3rd Level, it would add on average 4.5 damage total of 9 damage a turn. At 5th 9 damage per hit, for a total of 18. At 7th it would 13.5 per hit, for a total of 27. And then Cast at 9th Level it would do 18 per hit, for a total of 36.
For Haste, they would get an extra attack using for example a Rapier as the weapon, about also apply on average 4.5 + 5 + 5 (Hoping Dex and Int are maxed) in damage.
So yes, if you're looking for over all damage Spirit Shroud would be the choice to make, though once you're level 14 Haste would do damage if you compared level to level with the spells, but as you can see Spirit Shroud quickly over takes haste just be up casting to 5th.
So while you do get better damage on average from Spirit Shroud, you lose a bunch of benefits by not having Haste. So which spell is better over all would all depend on the combat you in. Do you need that extra movement, attack and AC or are you just aiming to make every hit do that much more damage.
An important detail is that I would most certainly be using 2 shortswords with spirit shroud to make better use of the +dmg per hit effect.. which would probably scew the dmg output even more in its favor.. In the end I'd almost certainly have both spells prepared.. I must admit that I really like the idea of haste.. 4 attacks in a turn when 2 weapon fighting is just really cool..
Hmm I can definitely see the issue with losing out on your reaction being an issue.. I also imagine a lot of bladesingers have the warcaster feat which is kinda negated if you don't get to use your reaction and never get hit (although never getting hit a a luxury problem :P)
I would think that it does benefit the party to an extent though? Without you being there to take damage, it leaves the support characters to focus on more tanky characters who are ment to be the focus of the enemy's attention.. It sort of takes away from pressure of the party dynamic of that sense.
The only alternative to blink as a defensive spell I can see, is mirror image.. WHich isn't super great for bladesingers due to mirror image not making use of their high AC.. Blur is of course good, but I feel like bladesinger's main strength as a melee fighter is the ability to buff the offensive prowess with spells like shadowblade, haste or spiritshroud.. all of which requires your concentration.
you can't shadowblade with the melee cantrips. That's something to consider.
That was my understanding aswell.. But apparently Crawford has stated that that wasn't the intention of the nerf? That he'd allow them to be used with shadowblade himself.. so It doesn't seem to be RAI.. I just saw someone link the tweet so I can't really give you the evidence..
yeah, I saw Crawford's clarification. But, I'd note he said "I'd allow it" rather than "this is what it says". He's essentially pushing a houserule. RAW, it does not work and I would not be surprised at all to see him flip-flop on this like he has on multiple other things, such as shield master.
No explanation for that change makes any sense to me other than a shadowblade nerf, because a quick look at the compendium doesn't show any /melee/ weapons that cost less than 1sp.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yea.. see that's such a weird thing isn't it.. I assume he's had some direct input on the change to the blade cantrip which they just released.. and then he states at the same time that he'd allow them to apparently contradict the rule he just helped impose.. Just strange in my opinion..
"Errata; from now on paladins must be lawful good aligned" Crawford the next week "Oh I'd still allow for non lawful paladins".. mixed messaging imo :P
I totally agree with on you RAW, it doesn't appear it would work.. If I were to DM it.. I'd view it as "Who's to say what the value of a shadowblade is?" and just have it work.. But hey *shrug*.. Spiritshroud is atleast not up for debate.
Maybe it's targeted at improvised weapons? natural weapons? Unarmed strikes?
*shrug*
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't remember for sure.. but i feel like he mentioned improvised weapons in that very same message.. But yea.. okay.. Natural weapons.. it would limit the use of booming blade with natural weapons... I feel like we're missing something. When I read that part of the change I was certain it was specifically targeted at shadowblade.. But then.. apparently it's not at all targeted at shadowblade according to crawford.
Yeah honestly that doesn't make any sense to me either. I mean it would be one thing if they didn't want that extra damage of shadow blade combined with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, but they just came out with Spirit Shroud that would increase the damage to be basically just like Shadowblade so.......
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I am trying to make a character who is a follower of Eilistraee. To make a long story short someone recommend using the Bladesinger class to meet the requirements of use of blades and I can use spells. I was looking a spells and feats, since I am worried about a melee mage.
My question: does the following sound legal. With Bladesinger my movement is increased by 10ft. If I take the mobile feat, my movement is increased another 10ft and when I target a creature for an attack a can ignore attack of opportunity from that creature. With the spell expeditious retreat, I can use dash as a bonus action. On my third turn (first turn for bladesong, second for expeditious retreat) I could move 100ft as a bonus action, so I could travel 50ft attack a creature and retreat 50th to safety.
Yes, that works. Just remember you're only avoiding opportunity attacks from the creature you attacked, so you still have to steer clear of other enemies.
You only need two turns to set this up. Expeditious Retreat allows you to Dash on the turn you cast the spell.
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I'd also recommend looking at the blink spell once you gain access to level 3 spells. First turn activate bladesong and cast blink.. this should help you survive by eliminating you as a possible target for half the combat.. Also gives a pretty cool spellblade vibe.
blur will be very useful in combat too.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thanks for the help. I am going to check out blink and blur.
I don’t like Blink personally, but Blur (and Protection from Evil & Good when applicable) is tremendously good for a Bladesinger. Assuming an average of 20 AC and being attacked at disadvantage all the time, you’ll probably be untouchable.
Interesting, I haven't yet had a chance to use blink so my advice was purely theoretical. What is it about blink you don't like? On paper it seems really strong.
Blur is certainly strong but I'd rather use my cocentration for other things myself.
I'm unsure about Ir0ns0ul's reason for not liking Blink, for my own personal reasons I don't like it because it removes you from combat until the start of your next turn. While this is extremely beneficial when trying to avoid damage, but it also means you lose out on any Reaction you might have taken or benefits that anyone of your allies might have bestowed on you.
Being a member of a party and losing out using that Counterspell in a critical moment or just getting off an OA on an enemy trying to get some distance between the party and themselves it's not really worth it. Then again there is the fact that with you not being on the field during all of your allies turns, you miss out on any heals, buffs or strategies that the party might attempt to use.
To Sum up - Blink: Great spell for yourself, bad for the party as a whole.
Hmm I can definitely see the issue with losing out on your reaction being an issue.. I also imagine a lot of bladesingers have the warcaster feat which is kinda negated if you don't get to use your reaction and never get hit (although never getting hit a a luxury problem :P)
I would think that it does benefit the party to an extent though? Without you being there to take damage, it leaves the support characters to focus on more tanky characters who are ment to be the focus of the enemy's attention.. It sort of takes away from pressure of the party dynamic of that sense.
The only alternative to blink as a defensive spell I can see, is mirror image.. WHich isn't super great for bladesingers due to mirror image not making use of their high AC.. Blur is of course good, but I feel like bladesinger's main strength as a melee fighter is the ability to buff the offensive prowess with spells like shadowblade, haste or spiritshroud.. all of which requires your concentration.
It's true that support might be able to focus more on other characters, but also means that if you're in desperate need but you're not their when they heal the entire party, you don't get the heals. Which can lead to a lot of problems if you're able to blink the next round and get targeted immediately by the big bad, so on so forth. I'm not saying it's not a bad spell, it's wonderful. But it has it's downsides to it when you're not around to get all those benefits from allies and I don't mean just healing. Any kind of buff, like beacon of hope, bless, etc.
It's true that mirror image doesn't really take advantage of the Bladesinger's high AC because it just directs the attacks towards the illusion before you even know if it would hit or not. Though it is not a concentration spell so even though it doesn't take advantage of the high AC it is still 3 opportunities that you avoid getting hit all together.
Bladesinger is by far my favorite class because I love the versatility of being able to be up close and personal with enemies or even deciding to step back and just be that spell slinging wizard that you are. So as far as beneficial spells I can agree with you about wanting to use those spells that buff your Physical abilities. Personally Haste is my go to spell just because of that Haste Action, increased speed, and AC. Getting those 3 attacks, being able to cast booming blade/green flame blade as part of the attack action and once you're Lvl 14 adding your Intel Mod to the damage makes you an amazing front line fighter.
Of course Haste has it's downside, with the whole once it ends you can't use reaction, actions or movement, but then it would need the cost to be amazing.
Yea, I've always thought bladesingers sounded really cool.. I'd 100% learn as much into being a melee glass cannon as possible and only use typical wizard spells for situational purposes.. I really like the idea of this super deadly but squishy tornado of death. For someone who thinks 5e martials classes lack options and customization.. a spellsinger is like having a martial character with a crazy amount of ability choices which is just really neat imo.
I feel like spirit shroud is potentially a lot more powerful than haste in terms of damage output.. but obviously haste grants a bunch of other advantages...
I feel kinda guilty.. my current character is a necormancer, and I'm already planning to play a bladesinger if he ever gets killed... I dunno if it's sort of lame to reroll the same class.. but my vision for a furture bladesinger may aswell be a completely different class than my necormancer.. so I think it's alright... Just a bit odd..
So if we take a Lvl 6 Bladesinger and look at the average damage per round saying that we hit every attack
If we bump the Bladesinger level up to 13 Here is the average
The Lastly we'll take that Bladesinger up to Level 20
So yes, if you're looking for over all damage Spirit Shroud would be the choice to make, though once you're level 14 Haste would do damage if you compared level to level with the spells, but as you can see Spirit Shroud quickly over takes haste just be up casting to 5th.
So while you do get better damage on average from Spirit Shroud, you lose a bunch of benefits by not having Haste. So which spell is better over all would all depend on the combat you in. Do you need that extra movement, attack and AC or are you just aiming to make every hit do that much more damage.
you can't shadowblade with the melee cantrips. That's something to consider.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
An important detail is that I would most certainly be using 2 shortswords with spirit shroud to make better use of the +dmg per hit effect.. which would probably scew the dmg output even more in its favor.. In the end I'd almost certainly have both spells prepared.. I must admit that I really like the idea of haste.. 4 attacks in a turn when 2 weapon fighting is just really cool..
That was my understanding aswell.. But apparently Crawford has stated that that wasn't the intention of the nerf? That he'd allow them to be used with shadowblade himself.. so It doesn't seem to be RAI.. I just saw someone link the tweet so I can't really give you the evidence..
I know.. it seems odd to me too...
yeah, I saw Crawford's clarification. But, I'd note he said "I'd allow it" rather than "this is what it says". He's essentially pushing a houserule. RAW, it does not work and I would not be surprised at all to see him flip-flop on this like he has on multiple other things, such as shield master.
No explanation for that change makes any sense to me other than a shadowblade nerf, because a quick look at the compendium doesn't show any /melee/ weapons that cost less than 1sp.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yea.. see that's such a weird thing isn't it.. I assume he's had some direct input on the change to the blade cantrip which they just released.. and then he states at the same time that he'd allow them to apparently contradict the rule he just helped impose.. Just strange in my opinion..
"Errata; from now on paladins must be lawful good aligned"
Crawford the next week "Oh I'd still allow for non lawful paladins".. mixed messaging imo :P
I totally agree with on you RAW, it doesn't appear it would work.. If I were to DM it.. I'd view it as "Who's to say what the value of a shadowblade is?" and just have it work.. But hey *shrug*.. Spiritshroud is atleast not up for debate.
Maybe it's targeted at improvised weapons? natural weapons? Unarmed strikes?
*shrug*
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don't remember for sure.. but i feel like he mentioned improvised weapons in that very same message.. But yea.. okay.. Natural weapons.. it would limit the use of booming blade with natural weapons... I feel like we're missing something. When I read that part of the change I was certain it was specifically targeted at shadowblade.. But then.. apparently it's not at all targeted at shadowblade according to crawford.
Yeah honestly that doesn't make any sense to me either. I mean it would be one thing if they didn't want that extra damage of shadow blade combined with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, but they just came out with Spirit Shroud that would increase the damage to be basically just like Shadowblade so.......