I have significant reservations about subclass balance given the absence of additional spells for the wild magic sorcerer.  Playing a wild mage will feel pretty restrictive when choosing known spells, just as in 5e.  Even the aberrant mind sorcerer has spells I would always want to have available when playing a sorcerer (e.g., mind sliver, telekinesis).  If there is no mechanic to target cast spells from the wild surge table (beyond the level 18 ability), then the subclass will be functionally hindered.  It's not even clear that there will be spells in the table to target.  Official comments on the nature of the new surge table have been inconsistent, with some indicating only minor tweaks have been made.  Nearly all of the actual spell effects referenced in the original table (e.g., grease, polymorph, fog cloud, fireball) were baneful and affected the sorcerer.          

Compared to the UA, I think sorcerous restoration is unnecessarily restrictive.  At low levels, the impact of the ability will be nonesuch, and at higher levels, while the impact will be greater than what was available in 5e,  the sorcerer will still need to be conservative in using metamagics or run out of points, effectively reverting to a wizard with fewer spells available.  A more reasonable amount of regeneration on short rest (with multiple rests per day) would feel much better and allow the class to utilize its main resource more effectively.  While the sorcerer capstone fills this role, few players will ever reach that level of play.  Most will be stuck in the level 1-10 range where the sorcerer will have just 2 metamagic options (which by the way limits the usefulness of the ability to combine metamagics at level 7) with no more 10 sorcery points and the ability to regenerate 1-5 points per day.  Rounding the number of regenerated points downward will also penalize sorcerers who chose to multiclass. 

Additionally, the sorcerer needs more/better metamagic options.  With the exception of quicken, heighten spell, and subtle spell, all of the other options lend themselves to niche applications.  The new sorcerer spells (arcane eruption and sorcerous burst) disincentivize taking transmute spell.  The war caster feat disincentivizes taking the new extend spell, which provides advantage on Con saves.  Extend spell would be more useful if tied to meaningful milestones.  Extending a 1 hour spell to 2 hours is functionally meaningless in games where time is not tracked so carefully.  It would make more sense to extend 1 minute to 10 minutes, 10 minutes to 1 hour, 1 hour to 8 hours, and 8 hours to 24 hours or double duration for anything 8 hours and above.  Careful spell would be more interesting if it was worded like heighten spell and worked on repeated saves (i.e., spells with maintained effects).  Seeking spell is worthless without meaningful "to hit" spells to which it can be applied. 

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I was kinda hoping to see Shadow Sorcerer in this book.

To paraphrase the top of the page; "If we don’t cover something, that means it remains practically unchanged".

 Ya, but I was hoping they would atleast get a spell list included like all the other subclasses. This is one that could really use some of those Warlock spells that they gave Aberrant mind. I always see Shadow Sorcerer as a user of Curse magic.

Fair.

Are Sorcerers just becoming better Wizards?  I know Wizards can learn all spells but with Sorcerers getting more spells you can pretty much know all the essential ones.  

Quote from GamerSerg >>

Are Sorcerers just becoming better Wizards?  I know Wizards can learn all spells but with Sorcerers getting more spells you can pretty much know all the essential ones.  

 Clockwork with tashas was already what id play if i wanted a versatile mage, especialy thanks to twine spell letting ye twine haste which is honestly a very weak spell when it can only be aplied to 1 person, slap on ritual caster feat and sudenly theres no need for a wizard to exist

I think a moments silence is required for Aberrant Mind sorcerer. Nerfed to the Nine Hells and back, my favourite sorcerer subclass is now absolutely terrible. I’m playing 5e for as long as possible before this weird 5-and-a-half-e becomes the main edition 

After rereading the NEW twinned spell meta-magic they really nerfed to the damn ground. I previously thought that if you could target more creatures with the spell you could twin upcast but because of the wording that we got it says" can target an additional creature" meaning you can't upcast say bless with it or air bubble. Also it says CREATURE so you can't target objects either. This meta-magic is quickly losing me granted they did buff the sorcerer a lot just to take away one of it's best options. Everything else about the sorcerer I think is awesome, aberrant mind and clockwork did need to be reined in with their spell list BS so all in all a good change.

Quote from mega1493 >>

I think a moments silence is required for Aberrant Mind sorcerer. Nerfed to the Nine Hells and back, my favourite sorcerer subclass is now absolutely terrible. I’m playing 5e for as long as possible before this weird 5-and-a-half-e becomes the main edition 

I think this is hyperbole.  A number of the aberrant mind's spells are niche, but the same can be said for clockwork soul.  I don't think we've ever cast greater restoration in the game I've been playing for the past 1.5 years in spite of it being a very useful spell *when* it's needed.  Several of the aberrant mind spells are great, and a number would see application with the free subtle casting.  I agree that there are great illusion and enchantment spells that would be nice to have and that would benefit more from the subtle casting.  However, the aberrant mind's base kit is still powerful.  I feel worse for the wild mage who gets no additional spells and whose abilities, which were balanced against those of the 2014 draconic sorcerer, are now being balanced against the latter plus additional spells.  And frankly, I would not assume that there will be no changes to the spell lists, or the actual functioning of the spells, until we receive more information about the PHB's contents. 

lets mourn the AM Sorcerer together with the Paladin as 2 completly destroyed classes in the 2024 PHB. Both posessing main ability's they are so nerfed that they are close to useless ...
AM has a lvl 6 ability ( psysich spells ) which i wouldn't know what to use it on. i never ever used more then 2 of his granted spells .... ( Hunger of Hadar & Evard's ) all the rest are so niche that i don't see any valid reason to even know these spells ....

When you twin it you will target 4, as a fourth level spell would

I must confess I don't understand the pity party folks are having over Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Yes it was nice to trade the spells but I think people are sleeping on the potential of the existing spells with the Psychic spells feature. First- it's actually stronger than plain Subtle Spell metamagic because you also ignore all material components that aren't consumed. Those components can STILL have a gold cost but as long as they aren't consumed, you can subtle spell them. Something else to consider is that with the Sorcerer Restoration feature, sorcery points will be more available and Psychic Spells is not considered metamagic which means you can add another effect ON TOP of the subtle spell effect. I see lots of potential for both the base psychic spells ability and adding more metamagic too honestly.

- Psychic Calm Emotions to help temporarily defuse lots of social situations

- Psychic Detect Thoughts for interrogation and information gathering

- Psychic Dissonant Whispers for commoner assassination missions or to make people go crazy

- Psychic Extended Hunger of Hadar or Psychic Distant Summon Aberration make for SUPERB distractions for heists or other shenanigans. 

- Psychic Telekinesis to make people think a place is haunted or to grapple someone in broad daylight while making people walking by think you are just talking to each other 

Quote from Jayne_of_Canton >>

I must confess I don't understand the pity party folks are having over Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Yes it was nice to trade the spells but I think people are sleeping on the potential of the existing spells with the Psychic spells feature. First- it's actually stronger than plain Subtle Spell metamagic because you also ignore all material components that aren't consumed. Those components can STILL have a gold cost but as long as they aren't consumed, you can subtle spell them. Something else to consider is that with the Sorcerer Restoration feature, sorcery points will be more available and Psychic Spells is not considered metamagic which means you can add another effect ON TOP of the subtle spell effect. I see lots of potential for both the base psychic spells ability and adding more metamagic too honestly.

- Psychic Calm Emotions to help temporarily defuse lots of social situations

- Psychic Detect Thoughts for interrogation and information gathering

- Psychic Dissonant Whispers for commoner assassination missions or to make people go crazy

- Psychic Extended Hunger of Hadar or Psychic Distant Summon Aberration make for SUPERB distractions for heists or other shenanigans. 

- Psychic Telekinesis to make people think a place is haunted or to grapple someone in broad daylight while making people walking by think you are just talking to each other 

 Your first point is incorrect. On top of removing the ability to switch spell lists, they also removed the ability to remove material components with costs attached to them. Also a lot of those examples are pretty niche.

-Calm Emotions generally requires creatures to already be hostile to you in order for it to work, and that usually means you're in combat so subtle casting is basically pointless. 

-Dissonant Whispers is a pretty big reach. Commoners don't require spells to kill (even silently), and if you want to drive people crazy just spamming telepathic speech at them is completely free. 

-I'm a fan of Hunger of Hadar but if you're looking to distract someone there's significantly better spell choices. Summon Aberration is good, but as I stated earlier, you now need the material components for it, which significantly devalues the synergy the spell and Psionic Sorcery used to share. 

-Telekinesis and Detect Thoughts do have their uses in Subtle casting but that's 2 worthwhile spells out of 10.

And that's the crux of the problem here. Most of the Psionic spell list pairs poorly with Psionic Sorcery. Outside of some fringe scenarios, most of these spells are generally not worth casting psionically, especially when compared to former stellar options like Hold Person/Monster, Suggestion, Silvery Barbs (if your GM is crazy enough to let you), Dominate Person, Fast Friends, or Modify Memory.

Mmm yes everyone is a prepared caster, cool, great. I love constant choices. Also I see, everyone prepares the same amount, good wouldn’t want a class to have something unique to it.

Well in 2014 you could only twin when they spell only targeted one person, so you wouldn't be able to have it target three but now sure what changed. I wasn't able to be in the playtest because of life, but the playtest pdfs are still up

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I must confess I don't understand the pity party folks are having over Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. Yes it was nice to trade the spells but I think people are sleeping on the potential of the existing spells with the Psychic spells feature. First- it's actually stronger than plain Subtle Spell metamagic because you also ignore all material components that aren't consumed. Those components can STILL have a gold cost but as long as they aren't consumed, you can subtle spell them. Something else to consider is that with the Sorcerer Restoration feature, sorcery points will be more available and Psychic Spells is not considered metamagic which means you can add another effect ON TOP of the subtle spell effect. I see lots of potential for both the base psychic spells ability and adding more metamagic too honestly.

- Psychic Calm Emotions to help temporarily defuse lots of social situations

- Psychic Detect Thoughts for interrogation and information gathering

- Psychic Dissonant Whispers for commoner assassination missions or to make people go crazy

- Psychic Extended Hunger of Hadar or Psychic Distant Summon Aberration make for SUPERB distractions for heists or other shenanigans. 

- Psychic Telekinesis to make people think a place is haunted or to grapple someone in broad daylight while making people walking by think you are just talking to each other 

 Your first point is incorrect. On top of removing the ability to switch spell lists, they also removed the ability to remove material components with costs attached to them. Also a lot of those examples are pretty niche.

-Calm Emotions generally requires creatures to already be hostile to you in order for it to work, and that usually means you're in combat so subtle casting is basically pointless. 

-Dissonant Whispers is a pretty big reach. Commoners don't require spells to kill (even silently), and if you want to drive people crazy just spamming telepathic speech at them is completely free. 

-I'm a fan of Hunger of Hadar but if you're looking to distract someone there's significantly better spell choices. Summon Aberration is good, but as I stated earlier, you now need the material components for it, which significantly devalues the synergy the spell and Psionic Sorcery used to share. 

-Telekinesis and Detect Thoughts do have their uses in Subtle casting but that's 2 worthwhile spells out of 10.

And that's the crux of the problem here. Most of the Psionic spell list pairs poorly with Psionic Sorcery. Outside of some fringe scenarios, most of these spells are generally not worth casting psionically, especially when compared to former stellar options like Hold Person/Monster, Suggestion, Silvery Barbs (if your GM is crazy enough to let you), Dominate Person, Fast Friends, or Modify Memory.

 Fair point on the material component change- I had not seen that on the update and it definitely makes Summon Aberration a much less attractive option for Psionic Sorcery.

Different folks interpret "hostile" in regards to Calm Emotions differently so yes mileage varies by table. My table has always viewed it not strictly as creatures prone to attack but also prone to dislike/disregard/distrust. So in that context, I find Calm Emotions to be essentially an AOE friends spell which can be useful when you just need a moment to bluff past someone or get a better deal on a transaction or give yourself a 1 minute headstart in a chase making them more likely to loose interest in the chase overall. 

in this cases why not use friends ?
and if you use calm emotions in this cases ( if your table plays like that ) all you need is one of the targets to make its save for the spell to be useless ...
because if you attack or harm any target the targeted regards as friends the spell ends.

summon aberation is nice, but with the material cost, that is also a very niche use, since you seldom have 400 gp for each time you want to cast this spell

detect thoughts have some uses, in certain cases = also niche spell, telekinesis is the same it has some niche uses.

but thats what everyone speaking against the spell list presented is saying, the AM has additional spells that are pretty much all just niche spell, and tbh who would choose more then 1 or 2 of them if he/she could choose two spells from each of those levels ?
pretty much everyone would be ok, if at least 2 or 3 of those spells woudln't be a niche spell ( e.g. hold Person/monser, charm person/monster, suggestion )

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in this cases why not use friends ?
and if you use calm emotions in this cases ( if your table plays like that ) all you need is one of the targets to make its save for the spell to be useless ...
because if you attack or harm any target the targeted regards as friends the spell ends.

summon aberation is nice, but with the material cost, that is also a very niche use, since you seldom have 400 gp for each time you want to cast this spell

detect thoughts have some uses, in certain cases = also niche spell, telekinesis is the same it has some niche uses.

but thats what everyone speaking against the spell list presented is saying, the AM has additional spells that are pretty much all just niche spell, and tbh who would choose more then 1 or 2 of them if he/she could choose two spells from each of those levels ?
pretty much everyone would be ok, if at least 2 or 3 of those spells woudln't be a niche spell ( e.g. hold Person/monser, charm person/monster, suggestion )

 Friends has a few specific limitations that sometimes makes calm emotions better. 

1- They can't be hostile to begin with. 

2- It guarantees they turn hostile again. 

With Calm Emotions, they can start hostile and the DM gets to decide whether or not they become hostile again. I admit its not always a distinction worth a 2nd level spell but it has come in useful at my table- again mileage varies. 

One thing to note, I think you might be reading Summon Aberration incorrectly. You mention "since you seldom have 400 gp for each time you want to cast this spell" but that spell does not consume the material component. You only need to acquire it once and then you are good to go from there. 

ruling on summon aberration might vary from table to table, the games i play in the spell consumes the component ...

and i think you misinterpret the calm emotions, its not the dm decide if they turn hostile again there's a clear discription how they turn hostile again ..
yes, if all the targets fail their save you might get past them, but just one making its save will be enough to render the whole spell useless. You are correct in the dm might decide when the spell ends its duration he / she might rule they don't come hostile

there might be niche cases like i said, when this spell is useful, but its not worth a slot in an extended spell list ( imho ) in a class that has its number of spells restricted. a wizard might have worth of such a spell, but for a sorcerer its just a waste of a spell slot. Plus it uses your concentration .... i would rather use a suggestion instead of calm emotion or a web spell.

Quote from Sorsohka >>

 

The wizard can add metamagic like ability for free to all his spell of a chosen schools. Evoker have an improved version of careful spell on EVERY evocation spell. Illusionnist got a speudo subtle amd speudo distant on all illusion (they have 2 metamagic at the same time) enchanter can continue using the the old twin metamagic on all enchanter spells. But the sorcerer is limited by his sorcerer point.

 

You're comparing the base sorcerer features to wizard subclasses, you realize that?

If anything, it's the other way round. Any sorcerer can choose to twin their enchantments or careful-spell their AoE or silent-cast or distance-spell their illusions. For a number of spell that has been greatly expanded to match other full casters up to lvl 14 (when only Wizard pulls a little ahead). And they still get subclass features and extra always prepared spells! Yes, some of those spells might be niche or not the most optimal choice but a) the spells might've been changed so we don't know that b) they are free! you get +10 always prepared spells in addition to all the other spells you prepare! While wizard is barely above the baseline and gets no extra spells from most of their subclasses! And still as a base, you get extra DC and advantage or attack rolls, and a new better Highten Spell too!

If anything, they should've boosted Evoker and Diviner with a couple of thematic always prepared spells - like they did to Abjurer and Illusionist. As is, the former two lag behind now.

Here's hoping Enchanter gets an always-prepared Suggestion and silent casting of enchantments on their update.

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The wizard can add metamagic like ability for free to all his spell of a chosen schools. Evoker have an improved version of careful spell on EVERY evocation spell. Illusionnist got a speudo subtle amd speudo distant on all illusion (they have 2 metamagic at the same time) enchanter can continue using the the old twin metamagic on all enchanter spells. But the sorcerer is limited by his sorcerer point.

 

 

You're comparing the base sorcerer features to wizard subclasses, you realize that?

If anything, it's the other way round. Any sorcerer can choose to twin their enchantments or careful-spell their AoE or silent-cast or distance-spell their illusions. For a number of spell that has been greatly expanded to match other full casters up to lvl 14 (when only Wizard pulls a little ahead). And they still get subclass features and extra always prepared spells! Yes, some of those spells might be niche or not the most optimal choice but a) the spells might've been changed so we don't know that b) they are free! you get +10 always prepared spells in addition to all the other spells you prepare! While wizard is barely above the baseline and gets no extra spells from most of their subclasses! And still as a base, you get extra DC and advantage or attack rolls, and a new better Highten Spell too!

If anything, they should've boosted Evoker and Diviner with a couple of thematic always prepared spells - like they did to Abjurer and Illusionist. As is, the former two lag behind now.

Here's hoping Enchanter gets an always-prepared Suggestion and silent casting of enchantments on their update.

I agree with these comments.  In the new version of the game, I think the sorcerer has the potential to be much more effective than the wizard in combat while also filling niche roles dependent on subclass (e.g., support for the clockwork soul).  The increase in spells known, ability to regenerate sorcery points, and ability to utilize two metamagics at once are huge for the sorcerer.  The wizard will be the class that has access to many, many more spells than other classes and the ability to swap spells a limited number of times out of combat.  However, the value of these characteristics will ride hard on any changes made to spells in the new edition and other classes' access to traditional wizard spells.  There is a likelihood that the wizard will be pigeonholed as the class for casting esoteric OOC utility spells--tiny hut, knock, enhance ability, identify, etc.--and this theme does not excite me greatly. 

Quote from AlleneOfLeHigh >>

ruling on summon aberration might vary from table to table, the games i play in the spell consumes the component ...

 The rule clearly states components are only consumed if it says so in the spell description. I've played with several dms and not one did this. I'd personally find another group if the DM did this unless they hand out gold like crazy.