so if you made a clone out of this new form youd only have your old health?

Did no one realize that making the spell end early if the target runs out of temporary hit points means the spell can only ever last until the target's next long rest? Or is that intentional? Because either way its sloppy and unclear.

in https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/spell-descriptions#TruePolymorph

the wording "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left." is missing.

The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form, and it can’t speak or cast spells.

 So you are permanently mute, even if you transform into something that can normally speak.

Yeah, the wording here is strange. I was wondering the same thing.

This is worded terribly. When the spell is made semi-permanent what happens to the health? Otherwise that just ends on a long rest, but it says it lasts until dispelled.

Also, "and it can’t speak or cast spells." the use of "and" implies you cant do either of those no matter what. Can your new dragon form not speak or spellcast? Why?

Wow, what a truly bizarre implementation of the "Creature into Creature" option. They've essentially copied the wording from the 2024 version of the Polymorph spell, and replaced the word "beast" with "creature". There are several problems with this:

• In keeping with the word "True" in the name of the spell, THIS Polymorph can last until dispelled. Unfortunately, this will only actually mean until the end of the creature's next Long Rest, since the spell will end early if they lose the Temporary Hit Points. The spell is clearly intended to last indefinitely, yet the rules clash in a way that makes this impossible
• Beasts cannot speak or cast spells. So that line that states this is perfectly valid for the ordinary Polymorph. CREATURES on the other hand, are in fact known for both speaking and casting spells, since this covers everything that exists that isn't a deity. Having this restriction remain as part of True Polymorph is nonsensical.

For DM's and WOTC, my recommendations for fixing this would be:

1. Make the Temp HP go away at the end of the Long Rest as normal, but don't have it end the spell.
2. Ignore/remove the line about speaking and spells. If the new form can do them, so can the True Polymorphed target.

The key word in the spell is that it ends "early" if they run out of temporary hit points. So if it reaches its full hour duration, a transformation will still become permanent until dispelled. So, taking a full rest would not undo the transformation. Rather the lingering question is whether, after an hour if the creature will fully take on the health of the creature the target became, or if it would keep its old hit point.

...So what if the boss has no minions to try and end the concentration? What happens if you're playing as a creature that can hold its breath infinitely, then you just jump in a Bag of Holding (Holding your knees to your torso to fit, of course,) and then keep concentration for an hour?

Yes, the "Creature into Creature" section is a total mess. As Knightin_gal wrote, it looks like the copied and pasted the 2024 Polymorph spell and replaced "beast" with "creature" which creates a host of nonsensical problems.

Quote from Knightin_gal >>

Wow, what a truly bizarre implementation of the "Creature into Creature" option. They've essentially copied the wording from the 2024 version of the Polymorph spell, and replaced the word "beast" with "creature". There are several problems with this:

• In keeping with the word "True" in the name of the spell, THIS Polymorph can last until dispelled. Unfortunately, this will only actually mean until the end of the creature's next Long Rest, since the spell will end early if they lose the Temporary Hit Points. The spell is clearly intended to last indefinitely, yet the rules clash in a way that makes this impossible
• Beasts cannot speak or cast spells. So that line that states this is perfectly valid for the ordinary Polymorph. CREATURES on the other hand, are in fact known for both speaking and casting spells, since this covers everything that exists that isn't a deity. Having this restriction remain as part of True Polymorph is nonsensical.

For DM's and WOTC, my recommendations for fixing this would be:

1. Make the Temp HP go away at the end of the Long Rest as normal, but don't have it end the spell.
2. Ignore/remove the line about speaking and spells. If the new form can do them, so can the True Polymorphed target.

 

I get the simplicity you're going for in suggestion 1 in trying to fix this mess.
But, don't we end up with nonsensical situations like a normally 300 HP creature having the hitpoints of a wizard? Or the other way around, some low hitpoint thing like a newt ending up with the hit points of a dragon?
You know, with True Polymorph, he won't get better 😅 he's a newt forever. If I'm punishing Smaug by using True Polymorph on him it'd be weird if he ended up as a newt with 200 hp.
I don't know the best way to word it, maybe something along the lines of:
"When this spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, the creature's maximum hit points become equal to its new form's maximum hit points, and the creature's current hit points become equal to its current temporary hit points, unless its temporary hit points are higher than its new maximum, in which case its current hit points become equal to its new maximum hit points. It then loses all remaining temporary hit points. Losing these temporary hit points in this way does not end the spell."
It's a mouthful, for sure, but it's also a level 9 spell, people should be comfortable with a bit of complexity as long as it's clear.

Can you turn a creature into a magic item with this?

Oof, so you can still indefinitely create new life using the object to creature option, but for some ungodly reason if you turn a creature into another creature they become mute bags of muscle & temp hp?

Yeah, it's gonna be a couple years before I ever get to see this spell in play at my table, but I'm 100% home-brewing it to use the legacy version for creature to creature. Or just removing the nonsense bits.

Quote from Petejs93 >>

Can you turn a creature into a magic item with this?

The first paragraph says "The creature shape-shifts into a different creature or a nonmagical object"

So I'm going with no.

Quote from Crawling_Chaos >>

Quote from Petejs93 >>

Can you turn a creature into a magic item with this?

 

The first paragraph says "The creature shape-shifts into a different creature or a nonmagical object"

So I'm going with no.

 Balls missed that line!! Well I guess my plan to turn Venca into the one ring is now up to my DM.

Quote from Knightin_gal >>

Wow, what a truly bizarre implementation of the "Creature into Creature" option. They've essentially copied the wording from the 2024 version of the Polymorph spell, and replaced the word "beast" with "creature". There are several problems with this:

• In keeping with the word "True" in the name of the spell, THIS Polymorph can last until dispelled. Unfortunately, this will only actually mean until the end of the creature's next Long Rest, since the spell will end early if they lose the Temporary Hit Points. The spell is clearly intended to last indefinitely, yet the rules clash in a way that makes this impossible
• Beasts cannot speak or cast spells. So that line that states this is perfectly valid for the ordinary Polymorph. CREATURES on the other hand, are in fact known for both speaking and casting spells, since this covers everything that exists that isn't a deity. Having this restriction remain as part of True Polymorph is nonsensical.

For DM's and WOTC, my recommendations for fixing this would be:

1. Make the Temp HP go away at the end of the Long Rest as normal, but don't have it end the spell.
2. Ignore/remove the line about speaking and spells. If the new form can do them, so can the True Polymorphed target.

 

 I just wanna be a dragon or a mighty being with spells. Hope they fix this before long.

Yeah, that is the dumbest thing I've seen in a spell description yet. The temporary hit point bit is pretty bad also.

I have read the comments here and seen the question in other forums so after studying this for awhile these are my conclusions:

• Creature to "creature" is a good change because now you can change creatures into non "Beast" type creatures. Woo, more options!
• The creature's actions are limited to the anatomy of its new form.
  • This is good for preventing an enemy target from casting spells to end/disrupt the transformation.
  • This is good for preventing an enemy boss from giving direction/notifying allies or minions.
  • This is bad for spell castors who want to beef up themselves or allies.
    • This may be an attempt to nerf assisting allies and push castors to cast "Shape Change" for beefing up themselves.
    • Which changes the intent of this spell to be 'pretty much' just for enemy targets.
    • This is kinda confirmed by the loss of gear that would take away a wizard's spell casting materials and and spell casting focus even if they could still speak and turned into a character with the needed spell casting stats. (Same for Warlock and Bard)
• You get your new HP as additional Temporary Hit Points (The description about rollover isn't here but it still exists it's just left in description of the preceding link)
  • So healing won't work on sustaining the creatures new form until the spell completes after 1 hour where the transformation becomes permanent.
    • Making it easier for the target's allies to forcibly end the polymorph.
      • Before they would attack you to end your concentration or attack the target the lower the HP to end the transformation but you and your allies could heal the target keeping it stuck in the new form until the spell finished casting. Now you have to control the battlefield better to ensure it's completion.
• If you succeed the transformation is complete. A "True Polymorph" with all the stats of the new creature.
  • I get that this is vague on whether the completely transformed creatures hp is the new stat block or still the original hp + the new stat block as temp hp until that goes away via dmg or their next long rest.
    • EX: 11HP Dolphin  --OR--  11HP Dolphin + 546HP of the previous Ancient Red Dragon
    • So I think we have to rely on the wording of "the spell ends early" combined with the several times it specifies "for the duration", where "the duration" is defined as 1 hour of concentration.
    • This implies there are three states 'Original Form', 'Transforming', and 'New Form'. Where 'Transforming' is just the hour it takes for the spell to complete the transformation from the original creature to the new one.
    • 'Original Form' has the original creature's stat block
      • EX: Ancient Red Dragon- 546HP, Hit Dice: N/A (are based on character class), Alignment: Chaotic Evil, Personality: likes to hoard gold. Lots of fancy dragon attacks, +4 Intelligence.
    • 'Transforming' is the 1hr of concentration. In which, it has the stat block of the 'New Form', but it retains its Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, alignment, and personality of the 'Original Form'
      • EX: Dolphin 546HP + 11Temp HP, Hit Dice: N/A, Alignment: Chaotic Evil, Personality: likes to hoard gold. Dolphin's Slam attack only but would need water to move in, -2 intelligence.
    • 'New Form' is permanent and no longer requires the spall castor's concentration to maintain but can be dispelled.
      • EX: Dolphin 11HP, Hit Dice: N/A, Alignment: unaligned, Personality: likes to feed on small fish, Dolphin's Slam attack only but would need water to move in, -2 intelligence.

Quote from The__Blackthorn >>

I have read the comments here and seen the question in other forums so after studying this for awhile these are my conclusions:

• Creature to "creature" is a good change because now you can change creatures into non "Beast" type creatures. Woo, more options!
• The creature's actions are limited to the anatomy of its new form.
  • This is good for preventing an enemy target from casting spells to end/disrupt the transformation.
  • This is good for preventing an enemy boss from giving direction/notifying allies or minions.
  • This is bad for spell castors who want to beef up themselves or allies.
    • This may be an attempt to nerf assisting allies and push castors to cast "Shape Change" for beefing up themselves.
    • Which changes the intent of this spell to be 'pretty much' just for enemy targets.
    • This is kinda confirmed by the loss of gear that would take away a wizard's spell casting materials and and spell casting focus even if they could still speak and turned into a character with the needed spell casting stats. (Same for Warlock and Bard)
• You get your new HP as additional Temporary Hit Points (The description about rollover isn't here but it still exists it's just left in description of the preceding link)
  • So healing won't work on sustaining the creatures new form until the spell completes after 1 hour where the transformation becomes permanent.
    • Making it easier for the target's allies to forcibly end the polymorph.
      • Before they would attack you to end your concentration or attack the target the lower the HP to end the transformation but you and your allies could heal the target keeping it stuck in the new form until the spell finished casting. Now you have to control the battlefield better to ensure it's completion.
• If you succeed the transformation is complete. A "True Polymorph" with all the stats of the new creature.
  • I get that this is vague on whether the completely transformed creatures hp is the new stat block or still the original hp + the new stat block as temp hp until that goes away via dmg or their next long rest.
    • EX: 11HP Dolphin  --OR--  11HP Dolphin + 546HP of the previous Ancient Red Dragon
    • So I think we have to rely on the wording of "the spell ends early" combined with the several times it specifies "for the duration", where "the duration" is defined as 1 hour of concentration.
    • This implies there are three states 'Original Form', 'Transforming', and 'New Form'. Where 'Transforming' is just the hour it takes for the spell to complete the transformation from the original creature to the new one.
    • 'Original Form' has the original creature's stat block
      • EX: Ancient Red Dragon- 546HP, Hit Dice: N/A (are based on character class), Alignment: Chaotic Evil, Personality: likes to hoard gold. Lots of fancy dragon attacks, +4 Intelligence.
    • 'Transforming' is the 1hr of concentration. In which, it has the stat block of the 'New Form', but it retains its Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, alignment, and personality of the 'Original Form'
      • EX: Dolphin 546HP + 11Temp HP, Hit Dice: N/A, Alignment: Chaotic Evil, Personality: likes to hoard gold. Dolphin's Slam attack only but would need water to move in, -2 intelligence.
    • 'New Form' is permanent and no longer requires the spall castor's concentration to maintain but can be dispelled.
      • EX: Dolphin 11HP, Hit Dice: N/A, Alignment: unaligned, Personality: likes to feed on small fish, Dolphin's Slam attack only but would need water to move in, -2 intelligence.

 A while back (before the 2024 rules) I saw a video describing a ritual of sorts that involved casting an 8th level glyph of warding with a clone spell built into it to activate when a specific phrase was spoken, true polymorphing oneself into a metallic dragon (any of the ones with the shapechange feature), maintaining concentration on the spell until it becomes permanent, activating the glyph of warding in order to start the cloning process (which would create a duplicate of the dragon form), and after 120 days you "delete the source material" causing your soul to enter the new dragon body.

This point of this ritual was it got rid of some of the caveats of the original true polymorph (e.g. you gain legendary resistances, legendary actions, spell can't be dispelled Etc.). In theory if you set up an additional Glyph of Warding, this time with a 9th level dispel magic, and had an ally say the key phrases instead so that the cloning would start while in full dragon form, and afterwards said dragon form would be dispelled by the second glyph. That way when you die 120 days later you would have your soul transferred into the dragon body with "... the same personality, memories, and abilities, but none of the original's equipment..." as per the clone spell. Meaning you would be an actual dragon with all the bells and whistles, along with your original personality, memories, and abilities.

anything wrong with this idea? (of course as a player I would never do this without talking to my DM first, and of course this requires access to three different spells (two 3rd level, one 8th level, and one 9th level), as well as spending two 9th level spell slots and one 8th level spell slot (which would take two in game days, one for set up and one for enacting the ritual) and then you'd have to wait 120 in game days for the clone to mature before becoming your full dragon form, which likely would take forever)

If a creature is turned into an object and then into a different creature, would it keep it's memories and conditions? I want to turn my familiar into something stronger, but I want it to still be my familiar. It's not really clear how much is kept. I'm a pact of the chain warlock at level 17. My familiar should not be CR 1.